Sustainability In FRC Teams

[gblake]

The several comparisons between/among STEM robotics programs and sort-of similar arts or athletics programs brought this "question" to mind.

Painting with a very broad brush...

Are the arts and athletics programs sustained by their communities (time, $ and votes); while the robotics programs are sustained by grants and individuals?

If the answer is yes, and if this dichotomy is at the root of many of the symptoms we have listed in this thread, then I think attending to the root cause of our "problems", and having a realistic expectation for the time, $ and effort necessary to affect changes, will lead to strategies for investing that time and energy wisely in sustainable projects.

Let's try an analogy

Sowing expensive seeds in thin or rocky soil, in an attempt to quickly feed the world is a waste of scarce resources. Instead, sowing those seeds in decent soil and living off the yield while you simultaneously get the other soil ready to produce crops is a way to maximize long-term yields. Prep'ing that currently poor soil might take 50 years, or it might take 50 days.

If the answer is that it will take 50 years, then trying to accomplish it in 50 days or 50 months is a good way to create fragile houses of cards, and create a lot of heartburn, confusion and waste.

Also, if in the agriculture analogy the current answer is 50 years, trying experiments to see if you can find a way to cut that time down to 5 years is a smart investment; but until the experiments pay off, don't gamble unwisely using blind luck as a guide.

If pouring externally supplied fertilizer on the poor soil is one way to (appear to) speed things up, pay careful attention to whether that fertilizer might some day run out.

Perhaps starting an FRC team in a "new" location isn't the first step to creating a sustainable STEM inspiration program. Maybe it is one of the last???

Blake

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by gblake

If pouring externally supplied fertilizer on the poor soil is one way to (appear to) speed things up, pay careful attention to whether that fertilizer might some day run out.
Blake

As someone who learns a lot about soil enrichment, expensive seed, and the costs/impact of fertilizer due to the fact that I'm married to someone who does this for a living - I like some of the analogies you are making. When thinking about the fertilizer (and to an extent the seeding process), we also have to take into account and look at the cost/waste of run off and how to help prevent it or minimize it as well.

I'm liking this a lot.

Jane

[Garret]

I think the best things we could do to try and help these teams with sustainability problems:
Teach teams how to fundraise. Grants are giving a team a fish, teaching them how to fundraise effectively and around their district's policies will keep them going. (on a related note, anyone got any tips for my team?)
Help teams get more mentorship, and stop starting a billion rookies unless those rookies all have good mentor support as well. There aren't many ways to really combat the second problem though, sometimes you start off GREAT and get unlucky.
Get some information and pro tips out there to help teams work with their district, or better yet, have some of the better off teams write letters or talk to "uncooperative" districts about how great robotics is aand why they should be supportive.

I agree.

Teams who do not receive enough support from mentors and their schools are extremely vulnerable. My guess is that the most fatal or devastating to an FRC team is when they lose mentors (not just because this can mean losing a monetary sponsor as well). When a team loses mentors they lose guidance which without how can students hope to learn the skills necessary to run a team. This statement may not apply to very established teams because those teams have a strong support system and foundation. But for teams who have essentially restarted from scratch each year this sort of foundation and stability is nonexistent and as such the team can fail if they lose that critical student who has been the backbone of the team.

Basically when a team is carried on the back of one or a few team members that team's lifespan (generally speaking) is limited to four years (graduating from high school). If we could figure out how to teach students how to be leaders (not just get something done) but how to manage an organization and tell other team members what to do.

Over this summer I have realized that a FIRST robotics team is much more like a small business than anything else (well at least my team) and as such when a team is composed completely of robot builders and technical people that team cannot exist just like a company cannot exist if it is only made up of engineers.

Again this only applies to teams that are completely student-run due to a lack of mentors/advisors.

I hope some of this ramble makes sense.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

As someone who learns a lot about soil enrichment, expensive seed, and the costs/impact of fertilizer due to the fact that I'm married to someone who does this for a living - I like some of the analogies you are making. When thinking about the fertilizer (and to an extent the seeding process), we also have to take into account and look at the cost/waste of run off and how to help prevent it or minimize it as well.

I'm liking this a lot.

Jane

To continue that analogy then, it's time FIRST remembers to fertilize and water existing teams.

A perfect example is a new FIM program in conjunction with JC Pennys. JC Penny is trying to sponsor NEW teams near their stores. If an existing team starts a new team and gets them up and running, they get a nice chuck of cash as well from JC Penny.

THAT is the type of self-promoting FIRST needs to do. It's the perfect combination of starting a new team and supporting the old. Go a step further though. Convince the sponsor to support not just the new team, but become a permanent sponsor of the existing one as well (If the team budget is below a certain level).

Another example: part of team system is that we will lower the amount a student pays to join based on how much they fundraise. Why doesn't FIRST offer a similar incentive for starting new FLL teams and FIRST teams?

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by IKE

While asking "FIRST" for a solution seems like the thing to do, I would instead paraphrase a famous leader:

"Ask not what FIRST can do for you, ask what you can do for FIRST."

Ike,
I don't think anyone wants to look to FIRST for the solution but... FIRST has to be involved in a formal way. If FIRST isn't, then the regions/areas/teams/competitions can be branded with a different acronym: DOT - Doing Our Thing. In other words, drift and separation can form, esp. as FIRST spreads internationally. As the veteran teams strengthen and mature into more and more high caliber HoF-worthy teams - they certainly know how to address sustainability and are very willing to share what they know. The problem is - there are not enough. For example, not in a state the size of Texas. Think beyond that and into other countries where FRC is just beginning to develop a root system. Here's an example - off seasons. Look at how off seasons help strengthen teams, including pre-rookies and rookies. Where are the off seasons and how is their importance and value being studied and acknowledged by FIRST? Look at that, recognize it and talk with the partners about helping partially fund or fully fund an off season event. FIRST doesn't have to be officially involved in an area off season but the folks who are making money available sure could be. For a very good, wise, and effective purpose.

I often talk about pulling in the WFAs, the Senior Mentors, the HoF teams, the visionary leadership from the teams, themselves, and working closely with the official decision-makers of FIRST in getting the importance of sustainability and consistency in building robust teams who build robust robots who build robust teams out there. Watching the program move into more of a mainstream mode - look at the partnerships that are happening with FIRST and powerful companies that can spread the word and are doing so. Goodness. But what needs to run ahead of and follow along very closely on the heels of development of new teams, new venues for competitions, new growth - must be the strength and wisdom of experience. That strength and wisdom of experience helps to fortify the new foundations being planned/laid/tested and there is not enough of it. It can only grow and develop and become robust enough to run ahead of and follow on the heels of the new growth - by having support and recognition given to it.

What I mean by building a sustainable team and/or region means - bringing all of the skills needed to the table to make that happen. Funding is important. How to use that funding is as important. How to set short term and long term goals to plan how to use that funding and then implement it is just as important. But - that's just one piece of the complex pie. Just one piece - there are several. All of those should be addressed, examined, explored, and worked with - by partnerships within the FIRST community, among which are the FIRST powers-that-be and their sponsors and partnerships.

It's too late to turn back - the only way is forward. Together - with a plan.

Jane

[Chris is me]

I've been tempted to post about "oh, teams fail for money reasons all the time" and some kind of silly counterargument or whatever, but with some hesitation I think that's a little silly. Enough teams fail for every reason that we might as well focus on all of them. I even have some "hypothetical" examples in there not based on any real world cases I'm a part of at all.

Fundraising on its own looks and can be very easy, especially for autonomous 501c3 teams. I think 501c3's have by far the easiest time with funding and it's not a coincidence that many big and successful teams exist this way. However, it sometimes gets a lot harder. Teams in school districts often have to have money donated to the school "for robotics". That alone cuts off some sponsorships. Sometimes the district has to approve every kind of fundraiser you do, and may prohibit particular fundraisers. Sometimes the paperwork takes a month so you can't even do any after a particular point.

The way around this particular problem fundraising wise is usually to be a big force. Get a lot of student interest and a lot of students with scholarships. Win regionals, Chairman's, and trophies to get a lot of respect and media attention for the team and school. Once you're successful enough to impress the school board they can help you get around some of these restrictions when they realize your club takes thousands more to run than the baking club. The problem is this generally is a bit of a chicken and egg thing. You need to win to get attention and respect as an organization, but having that helps you get the resources to win...

Leadership is a big thing. Most teams can't survive leadership changes, or the loss of a head mentor. I don't think there's really a way around this, other than to stop adding hundreds of rookies every season. If all the regions had ton of dedicated mentors just waiting for a robotics team to pour their soul into, no team would ever fail. If a team actually loses a dedicated mentor to a school budget cut or a layoff at a sponsor shop, that's really just a bad situation you usually can't get out of unless you've built up a large dream team of mentors already.

Sometimes your district can really bite you too. This has happened to a few teams I know of. Robotics teams are a large drain on resources relative to any other club, and schools are hesitant at best to put robotics teams on the same pedestal they put athletes, which is stupid but inevitable. What do teams that want to be sustainable do if they get hard limits on school time every week? What if they get 2 hour workdays, 5 days a week for example? That's the big question I don't have an answer for.

I think the best things we could do to try and help these teams with sustainability problems:

• Teach teams how to fundraise. Grants are giving a team a fish, teaching them how to fundraise effectively and around their district's policies will keep them going. (on a related note, anyone got any tips for my team?)
• Help teams get more mentorship, and stop starting a billion rookies unless those rookies all have good mentor support as well. There aren't many ways to really combat the second problem though, sometimes you start off GREAT and get unlucky.
• Get some information and pro tips out there to help teams work with their district, or better yet, have some of the better off teams write letters or talk to "uncooperative" districts about how great robotics is aand why they should be supportive.

Sorry for the long, rambling post.
I hope some of the content up there was useful to someone. I think I'm just really frustrated right now and this is my way of getting that out.

[kstl99]

You beat me to it. I hope there are lots of responses.

It seems to me there are two main reasons for teams to stop, money and lack of interest. I have read lots of good ideas on fundraising on CD, less on the interest side. In my one year of experience it seems that most students that get involved want to stay involved. If this is not true on a team, is it a leadership issue?

It seems a lot harder attracting new students, and maybe mentors. It is hard to get people to take the first step. I talk about FIRST way too much and have many people tell me how good a program it is and really appear excited, then never show up to events or follow through with their kids.

Maybe FIRST needs to spend some money on advertising. Most of the people I mention it to have not heard about it or don't know much about it. They certainly have no clue when the events are.

Sorry if this is a bit of a ramble, but it disturbs me to think of students being exposed to FIRST only to have their team fold.

[Koko Ed]

I think if teams don't have strong support from the school district and their sponsors it make things tough for them but if you don't have strong mentor support the team will not last very long no matter how dedicated the students are. Once they graduate who will bear the torch then? You need good mentors to keep the firs burning.
Our team has been very fortunate to last from the inaugural year of FIRST. We've been blessed with strong support from Xerox, from Wilson Magnet High School and mostly from long term mentors who have been on the team for well over 18 years. Without them the team would not survive.