A Corrupt FIRST?

[the man]

This in now way reflect on my team. These are my opinions and mine alone.
I have begun to notice some corruption in the FIRST organization.

First off in FTC the rules support one company, Lego, more specifically TETRIX. The rules limit what you can use to mainly TETRIX products , no lookalikes, teams are only aloud certain amounts of things like square tubing or other metal unless it is made and bought from TETRIX.

Second in FRC, I can only speculate where our outrageous fee of $5000 goes. Dose first release this information? Its not the kit, there is little of value in there. Its not the places the events take place, those are schools or sponsors of FIRST. Where dose this money, that to frequently destroys teams, go?

Any thoughts? Please no negative comments or unsupported "Facts".

[AdamHeard]

Isn't your entire post an unsupported "fact"?

[EricH]

Quick suggestion: Before making unsubstantiated claims and wondering where the registration fee goes, look at http://usfirst.org/aboutus/content.aspx?id=78 for annual reports going back to 2003. You will notice that the first item is an audited financial report.


And as for claiming the KOP has little of value: Motors aren't exactly cheap. The Kitbot isn't exactly cheap. The software in the KOP is NOT cheap, especially in non-student versions. With the prices of copper these days, the wire isn't exactly cheap. I'm not sure I want to know how much the batteries cost.

[Chris is me]

For what it's worth, the FTC competition has always restricted parts to one vendor, even before Tetrix was involved. The intent of this is that the parts are supposed to be relatively inexpensive and standardized, so all teams have an even and accessible playing field. This is the primary draw of FTC and similar competitions - machining resources aren't needed and the only constraint relative to other teams is your critical thinking skills.

So FTC forces a monopoly by design. It definitely is a valid way to execute the above goal - in my experience with the program (granted, back in 2008) it worked pretty well!

[jmanela]

Your claim of the KoP being "cheap" financially has already been discussed, but what the important thing about the KoP is that each piece of equipment we pull out of their is used in the real world. The knowledge gained from using these items at all (which would most likely not even be available to you if it weren't for FIRST) is nothing close to cheap, it's priceless.

EDIT:
Example, over the summer I interned at the University of Miami using LabView and the skills I gained from FRC programming to analyze blood vessels as they contract and expand.

[dlavery]

Actually, before looking up any information regarding FIRST's use of the funds and material support that they may receive, your time would probably be even better spent looking up the formal definitions of "libel." Because if you are going to make inflammatory unsubstantiated charges of corruption and implicit accusations of criminal activity, you are going to find yourself on the wrong end of discussions with some lawyers on that topic pretty quickly.

-dave



.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by EricH

Quick suggestion: Before making unsubstantiated claims and wondering where the registration fee goes, look at http://usfirst.org/aboutus/content.aspx?id=78 for annual reports going back to 2003. You will notice that the first item is an audited financial report.

While I in no way want to give credence to the idea that FRC is subject to financial mismanagment, it is worth noting that the financial reports get no more specific than showing several million dollars poured into FRC. My point is not that they should or shouldn't be more specific than that, but that the average student wouldn't learn anything of value by looking at those resources.

And as for claiming the KOP has little of value: Motors aren't exactly cheap. The Kitbot isn't exactly cheap. The software in the KOP is NOT cheap, especially in non-student versions. With the prices of copper these days, the wire isn't exactly cheap. I'm not sure I want to know how much the batteries cost.

It's worth noting that at least some amount of the Kit of Parts is donated. The KoP has an estimated value greater than its price tag, however.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

It's worth noting that at least some amount of the Kit of Parts is donated. The KoP has an estimated value greater than its price tag, however.

It's that estimated value that I was getting at. If you were to buy the KOP off the shelf, it's worth a lot of money. Are parts donated? Sure. This keeps cost down. But some parts need to be bought (or are bought at a discounted price), and for 1800 kits, that's a lot of money even for one or two items.

[the man]

Heres another question. Why do we have to buy the kit? How many veteran teams use a majority of whats in the kit. I know we didn't.

[GGCO]

The only thing I find a little odd is how when dealing with FIRST in Michigan $5,000 registers my team for a KOP and 2 Michigan District events. However when dealing with FIRST $5,000 only covers a State Championship.

I've heard from the powers-at-be that the astronomical cost had something to do with Unions - something along the lines that all the audio/video people were from one union that signed a contract with FIRST.

I agree though, transparency is always a good thing - especially with non-profits.

[the man]

Originally Posted by GGCO

The only thing I find a little odd is how when dealing with FIRST in Michigan $5,000 registers my team for a KOP and 2 Michigan District events. However when dealing with FIRST $5,000 only covers a State Championship.

Ya and to go to that Michigan state champion ship you have to pay another $4000, and then first national competiton another $5000. Thats over $14,000 when you include the cost of the robot and gas. food, and hotels. A lot to ask a team to fundraise.

[dag0620]

Originally Posted by the man

Ya and to go to that Michigan state champion ship you have to pay another $4000, and then first national competiton another $5000. Thats over $14,000 when you include the cost of the robot and gas. food, and hotels. A lot to ask a team to fundraise.

I would like to know where you got those figures from?

It seems as if you are being quite critical of the Michigan system for money. While it does have it's ups and downs, I can tell you as an outside team, your getting to go to 2 districts, while I as a NE Team am only going to 1 regional for what I believe is the same prices (I apologize if this statement is wrong in advance).

I'm not putting you down for the point your trying to make, everyone is entitled to there own opinion and free speech, and if you want to say FIRST is corrupt that is your own right. But please try to back it up with actual facts at least. I don't think I would have as big of a problem with this argument as I do right now if both sides were using actual cold hard facts and good numbers/statistics.

My $0.02

[the man]

Originally Posted by dag0620

I would like to know where you got those figures from?

It seems as if you are being quite critical of the Michigan system for money. While it does have it's ups and downs, I can tell you as an outside team, your getting to go to 2 districts, while I as a NE Team am only going to 1 regional for what I believe is the same prices (I apologize if this statement is wrong in advance).

I'm not putting you down for the point your trying to make, everyone is entitled to there own opinion and free speech, and if you want to say FIRST is corrupt that is your own right. But please try to back it up with actual facts at least. I don't think I would have as big of a problem with this argument as I do right now if both sides were using actual cold hard facts and good numbers/statistics.

My $0.02

How much dose it cost you to attend an not state event?

[czeke]

Plus, keep in mind, that regionals aren't cheap. Not only is there a rental fee, to the venue, for the event, but you also have to hire a full staff of support personnel ( ushers, vendors, janitorial, etc. ) which more than likely is receiving union wages. Plus you have the cost of any advertising.

[Katie_UPS]

Originally Posted by the man

How much dose it cost you to attend an not state event?

$5k, if I'm not mistaken.

Also, you mention earlier that going to districts, state champs, and championships would cost you 14k. Remember that no one is asking you to raise 14k. To participate in FRC, you need 5k. That gets you a kit and a regional (or two district events). Any expenses past that are your team's choice. And if 5k is too much, FIRST offers a lower-cost robotics competition: FTC.