A Corrupt FIRST?

[Andrew Bates]

I think what OP is asking for is for someone to disprove what appears to be the situation from his experience. Instead of instantly denouncing everything OP has observed why not instead show OP where he has gone wrong. Showing someone where they have gone wrong is much more useful than accusing them of making outlandish accusations.

[the man]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Isn't your entire post an unsupported "fact"?

I dont think so. The part about FTC is clearly written in the rules. The second part about FRC is more a question.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by the man

I dont think so. The part about FTC is clearly written in the rules.

It's in the rules. Why not use that same argument about FLL? After all, their rules are much more restrictive: Thou shalt only use LEGO parts, nothing more, nothing less (with minimal marking/string exceptions). Clearly, that's a sign of a corrupt partnership existing to make money.*


Or maybe it's that way so that everyone has an even playing field, and teams with $20K and a 3-D printer and/or a CNC can't build special adapters to attach stuff that teams with the entry fee and kit money can only dream about.



*Not my actual opinion, in case you were wondering. I much prefer the other alternative I presented.

[the man]

I was afraid of this...

I feel FLL is not a major "issue" because of the age group and the small cost lego parts are.

I think "leveling the playing filed" is more of and excuse for first then a legitimate reason to allow mainly only tetrix. And it is definitely not cheaper to buy tetrix the to make your own parts and limits the creative process.

The corruption was a question not an accusation. And I am not a lawyer nor do I care much what one would think.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by the man

The corruption was a question not an accusation. And I am not a lawyer nor do I care much what one would think.

It is possible to ask a question in such a way that it is an accusation rather than a question. This can be done in a number of ways, including language that can easily make the blood boil (i.e., "outrageous").

As for not caring much what a lawyer would think, let's assume for a moment that FIRST saw this thread. Let's also assume that they took it as an accusation, more specifically, a false and damaging accusation. Let's also assume that they don't just go after you, but they decide (in spite of your disclaimer) that the team thinks the same way, and name them as well in any lawsuit. What's a slander/libel lawsuit award run these days, $50K easily? Plus legal fees? That's why you'd want to care what a lawyer would think.

[the man]

In that case i would have to destroy first. If it comes to that I am sorry to those, my self included, who have enjoyed first.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by the man

In that case i would have to destroy first. If it comes to that I am sorry to those, my self included, who have enjoyed first.

You're not going to get very far unless you work on improving your communication skills, punctuation, and spelling errors.

Jane

[keehun]

The posts' title and accusations in the original post is over the edge, but I still think this post can be turned around in to fruitful discussion.

Glancing through (read: scan through, not a in-depth reading) the audited report, it feels just like a tax return form. Just a lot of numbers and a lot of room for things to "hide" under.

For instance the operating cost of FRC in 2009 was $25,259,844. The revenue from "Program Registration Fees" was $15,535,666. "Contributions and Grants" were $15,900,906. The surplus at the bottom of that table was $506,264, which is a WHOLE lot less than 2010's figure.

Those seem like valid numbers, and then I read on page 8 "Unrestricted Contributions recorded as program expenses" which for FRC in 2010 was nearing $4 million. That could be anything. Lobbying, bribing, corrupting. (sarcasm, please)

I'm not on the same boat as the original poster as to say that the way FIRST uses money is in any way sketchy, but I think we could allow for some imagination and "creativity" (non-slander and non-libel!) and use it as an opportunity for discussion. FIRST does handle a lot of money.

I know that they have tried to help the teams out every year, by lowering the registration fees by a $1000 for example from the past. I don't really think FIRST is in any way corrupt. I also have no basis of reason to believe or even imagine so.

But this discussion is interesting! Like those price breakdowns lists of iPods/Wiis/etc they have online, maybe we could go through the KOP and price how much FIRST pays/(gets donations) for them and investigate?

Whatever it is, I guess the most important thing is to keep it all straight in facts and keept it free of libel.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by keehun

I know that they have tried to help the teams out every year, by lowering the registration fees by a $1000 for example from the past. I don't really think FIRST is in any way corrupt. I also have no basis of reason to believe or even imagine so.

I don't agree with the OP at all, but the idea that FIRST is helping teams out by lowering the entry fee is ridiculous.

They have artificially inflated entry fees while simultaneously drastically cutting the value of the KOP and certain aspects of the event itself (absolutely pathetic trophies, for example).

We used to get a ton of useful stuff every year worth a lot of money that we no longer get, mostly including control system/electronics stuff.

So FIRST may be "helping" us in the sense we're paying $5k for the KOP and first entry instead of $6k, but the fact remains that we used to pay $4k and get a lot more for our money than we do now. I realize that the economy has been very weak lately and it is difficult to even continue to provide the same level of resources in the kit without increasing cost, but even prior to the recession we saw increased entry fees.

This becomes even more unpalatable when you look at FiM where one set of teams gets to pay essentially half as much as the rest of FRC for the same product. I understand that this is due to a subsidy not funded by FIRST, but that doesn't make everyone else not lucky enough to live in Michigan feel better about the fact that we're paying more for less.

Originally Posted by keehun

Your comment regarding how much FIRST spends on regionals was very off base. Though the locations are often on school campuses (or on a sponsor's property), FIRST does not get these locations for free. They may get a discount, but it is still pricey. Factor in the resources that go into shipping the field, shipping awards (you would be surprised!), live streaming, promotion, and even the cost of keeping everything powered for three days, and FIRST gets quite a hefty bill at every regional.

While you are right about how it is very expensive to run an event, regional events are responsible for covering the costs of their event independently of FIRST.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by the man

This in now way reflect on my team. These are my opinions and mine alone.
I have begun to notice some corruption in the FIRST organization.

How does this post and the title of this thread not reflect on your team, Jacob? You are reflecting on your team. What do you think a team is? Is a team something that you step away from or push aside anytime you choose to voice an opinion? If that is your idea of what a team is, you might want to spend some time thinking about and evaluating that mindset. You might also consider asking your mentors to help you out with questions like this before you state your opinions in Chief Delphi that draw a response from Dave Lavery in the manner in which you have done. Mentors are excellent resources and usually have a bigger picture/understanding of FIRST or can find knowledgeable people who do.

Jane

[the man]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

How does this post and the title of this thread not reflect on your team, Jacob? You are reflecting on your team. What do you think a team is? Is a team something that you step away from or push aside anytime you choose to voice an opinion? If that is your idea of what a team is, you might want to spend some time thinking about and evaluating that mindset. You might also consider asking your mentors to help you out with questions like this before you state your opinions in Chief Delphi that draw a response from Dave Lavery in the manner in which you have done. Mentors are excellent resources and usually have a bigger picture/understanding of FIRST or can find knowledgeable people who do.

Jane

You shold know that i no longer have mentors due to the unavalability of money to our past frc program. Are you sugesting that I am not entitled to my opinion? Dose every idea i have belong or represent my team? If so then we have all done things, thought thoughts, and other wise disrespected our teams.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by the man

Dose every idea i have ... represent my team?

YES.

By affiliating yourself with a team, you are representing them at all times, as you are a member and part of that team. You can't quit your team to say something, then join back on it. The words are tied to you, and you're tying yourself to your team.

If you have ideas you don't want to be affiliated with your team, either don't say them or don't be on that team. You are a constant representative of your team.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

YES

To Chris, Jane and everyone else in that camp - I respond with a polite but firm NO

Individuallity does exist, in addition to group affiliations

[dodar]

Originally Posted by gblake

To Chris, Jane and everyone else in that camp - I respond with a polite but firm NO

Individuallity does exist, in addition to group affiliations

Yes, it does, but not when he affiliates himself with a specific team on CD. Whenever anyone usually looks at someone's name on here, they look to see which team they are apart of...at least I do.

Also, changing your profile to not show your team underneath your name doesn't take away the fact that you are a part of that team.

[EricH]

There's a spotlight from Koko Ed that says, in part,

Remember: In FIRST you have the right to remain silent, anything you say can and will be held against you and your associates in the court of public opinion.

(emphasis mine)

Is there individuality? Yes. But if one member of a group is acting really badly--or really nice--that behavior reflects on the entire group if that member is showing that he or she is part of that group. Disclaimer or no, it will reflect at least to some extent. There have been times on CD that I have seen someone have to try to mend damage caused by someone else on their team, because they know that if somebody doesn't present the other side, the team will gain a reputation that they don't want to have.

Reputations, particularly team reputations, are tough to build and very easy to destroy.