2002 Animation Software

[MrB]

From what I read in a recent CADENCE magazine article INVENTOR will be a replacement for MECHANICAL DESKTOP which runs on top of AUTOCAD. The idea is that AUTOCAD 's basic engine is getting a bit old, and that the INVENTOR engine was designed from the ground up to do 3D Modelling.

AUTOCAD will not dissapear, but supposedly MECHANICAL DESKTOP will only have 2 more versions and then INVENTOR will be the platform for 3D Parametric Modelling.

Currently I teach Mechanical DEsktop to my students, and am fond of both MDT and INVENTOR. I think that next year we will be teaching INVENTOR exclusively. If I can find some good materials to use in class to help teach it that is.

[dlavery]

Originally posted by Dan Hill
I'm on the same team as Zeinin, and we are planning to use as many different programs as we can to produce the best animation.
....
I checked the manual and I noticed that it does not say that any other software is not allowed, so they cannot restrict us from using other software.

I do agree with Zeinin on many points:
- the contest is not as open as most of the animators would like to have it. They should not have to make us make the animation have an "appealing aspect to first." We would not be spending as much time as we do if we did not care for first and the animation, and I think that the workers at First should see this.
- the purpose of the animations is not to necessarily to win any awards, it should be so that we can show our friends and family the animation and have say them say "Wow. You guys should be professionals", not "Wow. You guys sure do like to ...animate." Granted, if we do any awards, it would be nice.
-this should be experience with an actual animation software. If you look at any serious animation firm, they will never think about using 3ds max for anything that the general public might see, although they might use it to simulate movements for tests.
-without editing softwares like photoshop and premiere, do not even look toward showing the animation to anyone, because, chances are, it is not going to be pretty. We all suggest rendering the output to single frames and then compiling, editing, and compressing them later.

First off, the rules do indeed state that you have to use Autodesk software, and only Autodesk software, for the animation submissions. This is stated in the Awards section of the rules, Page 12, section C4.1.3. This was further clarified by FIRST on the FRCTECH2002 board in Post 576 on Jan 28.

Maybe the contest is not as open as the animators would like. Well, it is not as open as the software guys would like either. Or the electrical engineers would like. Or the structural engineers, the tacticians, drive system team, or anyone else. But they all find a way to get through the process while staying within both the spirit and letter of the rules.

If I apply the logic utilized in the quoted post to the rest of the FIRST competition, it goes something like this:

- We don't like the way the rules for the competition are stated, so we are going to ignore them.

- It should be obvious to everyone that just because we are building a robot for the FIRST competition that we must love FIRST and robots. We have no responsibility for adequately demonstrating that fact to FIRST or anyone else. It is FIRST’s responsibility to recognize that about us and the other 700+ teams in this year’s competition.

- We are going to use any materials, supplies and parts that we want, whether they are legal in the competition or not

- Most audiences are too stupid to understand that we are working with intentionally limited time, tools, and capabilities, and are therefore incapable of appreciating the work that we have done. So to make it absolutely clear to them that we can do great stuff, we will use prohibited technologies to make it look pretty enough to gain appreciation from even the dumbest viewers.

- We are out to build the biggest, baddest, “best” robot we possibly can build, and we don’t care if it fits within the constraints of the competition or not.

- The fact that other teams work within the rules is irrelevant. The fact that our behavior will likely impact their ability to receive any well-deserved awards is irrelevant.

This is where you end up if you follow that logic to its conclusion. Is this what you really intend? Is this how the rest of your team behaves? And is that what you told your sponsors they should expect from you (you know, the guys paying your bills)?

Originally posted by Zeinin
here is the software that 449 is gonna use for our photoreal animation this year:

1. lightwave version 7
2. Rhino 3d
3. inventor... only if it impresses us enough....
4. PHOTOCHOP
5. Primere


Originally posted by Dan Hill
Everyone who has put down my team for not using programs that we do not think will save us time, should take a look at the true purpose of the animation, not the fact that there is an award that can be won.
…
You all know the point I'm trying to make so I will end it with one more comment. I do not know if my team will be going to nationals, but I hope that when I see the shown animations, I can say "Now that is some quality" not "Wow. They won an award."

Since you have clearly indicated that you do not intend to abide by the rules of this competition, and that you are not interested in winning any of the awards, just in making the best animation that you can, I just have one question for you: if you do happen to win an award, will you admit in front of the entire audience that you did not perform within the rules, that you did not earn the award, and will you return it?

Let me respectfully suggest that you might want to consider taking another approach. If you really want to make the coolest, highest quality, most professional animation that you possibly can, go for it. Use Lightware, Maya, SoftImage, Renderman, Bryce, and any other tools you want. Utilize a professional compositing system. Heck, even subcontract out to PIXAR to have some of your rendering done! When you are done, show it to the world. Let your family and friends be suitably impressed by your work. Put it together with some of your other animations, build a demo reel, and use it to get hired by an animation house. Enter it into any of a number of computer animation (or just regular animation) contest – Newtek, SIGGRAPH, or even the Sundance Film Festival.

Just don’t enter it as part of the FIRST animation competition.

The FIRST competition (both the robot and animation aspects) is about a lot of things: building robots, learning new skills and technologies, being inspired, working in teams, creating an animation, solving problems, turning theory into application, competing, overcoming challenges, getting first-hand exposure to real-world engineering, building people, and many others. But perhaps most importantly, it is about the qualities associated with the Chairman’s Award (including inspiration, recognition, values, responsibility, and ethics of professional behavior). It is no mistake that the Chairman’s Award is the most significant award that a FIRST team can win.

Those behaviors should not be the domain of just the “Chairman’s Award group” of every team – it should be infused throughout the entire team (including the animation team). The animation competition is NOT about just making a pretty animation. It is about learning to be a professional, and working with the responsibility and integrity that being a professional requires. And in some cases, behaving as a professional means that you have to make a choice between playing within the rules of the game, or finding another game.

I would really suggest that you guys take a deep breath, sit back for a minute, and think about what you are doing and why.

- dave

[Dan Hill]

First off, cool down. We have rethought our plans since I posted my comment a few weeks ago.

-We realized that our team is no where near rich enough to gain a license for lightwave. Zeinin works with lightwave at his work, while the rest of the animation has been messing around with inventor to see how we can convert it to mesh for 3ds max. We were hoping for sponsor to help us out but that has not worked.
-we are behind on the animation because inventor crashs every 5 seconds when working with a large file.
-Also, I can bet that every single team is using a piece of software not developed by autodesk (editing programs like paint and ) so basically no one will be allowed to enter.
-we have not broken any rules in the competition because we are far behind and have not animated anything


I'm sorry if my comments were not very clear, because at many times, I do not sound very clear. Many things and plans have changed since I posted the comment. Here is what I meant:
-I do not like some of the rules, similarly to everyone else. I'll propose something about solving this later.
-If we can only use autodesk products, then the animations would not be produced (unless autodesk makes an OS and a paint program).
-Many people on each team spends hundreds of hours working on the robot. If that is not love and determination, then tell me what it is?
-where have I "clearly indicated" that we have use programs in the animation this year?
Zeinin has commented in our plans and has made designs for the animation at his work but that is because he knows the program better.
We said that we are using 3ds max and inventor to make the robot and animate them.
-if we did obtain a license for lightwave, I bet that we might have used it to get our animation done. We realized that we already have several copies of max (from previous years) which we could work on and make the animation a lot faster than one person could do working on the animation at their work.
-I think that the robot should be "the biggest, baddest, 'best' robot we possibly can build", but I do not know about the rest of you guys.
-We don't know what material we are putting in the animation, so we have not violated any restrictions
-Heck, if our animation does violate the rules, then we do not have to enter a competition, big deal, but we will be showing it down at nations in front of everyone so they can see what we did. We like what we do. For example, last year, we entered an animation that was focused on a woman running through the woods and the robot is chasing after her, and we still entered it, even though FIRST did not like it. We liked the concept and so did most people, it was not FIRST's taste, but that did not stop us from making something that we liked.

Sorry if I sound harsh, I'm not trying to put down any of Dlavery's observations. Dlavery seems to be serious about animation, and I respect him. I hope their team produces an awesome animation. Dlavery does make many good points about the competition while trying to clarify information.
-teams are using some expensive stuff which they don't even own. (I think that there may even be a team represented by pixar but I could be wrong).
-I think that Dlavery does not like the restrictions either. Next year I hope that I can find other animators, and we can produce our own student awarded animation award, just between students. It can be any length, any thing you want it just has to be made by students on the team. Many teams run over the time and may have to cut pieces off their animation that would have made it more understandable. I hope that fellow animators agree with me on this.
-"And in some cases, behaving as a professional means that you have to make a choice between playing within the rules of the game, or finding another game." I like this quote a lot and agree with it, and that is why I have been commenting that we are still not certain if we are even going to enter our animation in to the contest (FIRST probably will not like this years animation either). The only problem with being professional is that it is not educational, fun, or correct. Many teams try to act to professional and get their sponsors to design, make, and drive their robots, which is about as professional as a team can get, and FIRST allows it to happen. I hope that dlavery's team is not one of those teams because then he might disagree with me.

I'm sorry if I have given any person on this thread the idea to break rules to make a great animation. Next time I will try to make my comments clearer.

[dlavery]

Dan -

It actually sounds like we may be in violent agreement. If my prior post came on too strong and long winded, it is just because I was trying to make a point, and going to extremes to make sure that it came through.

No, I am not thrilled with some of the restrictions on several parts of the competition (animation, robot construction, software, and electronics, just to name a few), and I hope that we will have more flexibility in future years. But I have also talked a lot with FIRST, and have a good first-order understanding of why the rules are the way they are. FIRST takes on a huge job every year when they try to balance the major growth of the competitions with their organizational resources to support a high-quality experience and event for all the participants. Based on their very clear desire to make this the best possible competition for all of us, I am more than willing to put up with the restrictions.

I meant it when I said that if you guys want to build a truly amazing, photorealistic animation, utilizing all the resources you have available, you should do it. If you really make it into a demo reel, and parlay that into getting hired by an animation house, I would be the first in line to congratulate you. You just need to make sure that eveyone understands when you do this you are going after a different target than the rest of us, and working to a different set of rules (which is this case would be perfectly OK, because you have "found another game").

My only other comment has to do with your statement "the only problem with being professional is that it is not educational, fun, or correct." With this statement, I could not disagree more. I have what I believe is the most kick-butt job in the world (or beyond it, as the case may be). There is not a day that goes by that is not educational, in which I don't learn something new. I get to have more fun than I ever thought I could. Becoming "professional" is not the end of having a good time - if you pick the right job and a career that you love, it is just the beginning. I honestly hope that when you get ready to start your career as a "professional" that you will find it as much fun as I do (and if that means you want to become an animator, and preparing for this competition helps get you there, then that would be VERY cool!). (I know this is not the context in which you meant the statement, but I just could not resist poking at a line like that! )

-dave

p.s. to comply with "full disclosure" ethics, I will also note that I am a Lightwave user. I think it is a very cool piece of software, and really like their volumetric tools. But it has not been used for any part of our team animation, which is being done completely by two students on our team.

[ComBBAT_Albrot]

In response to the comments about any serious animation houses not using 3d Studio MAX, you're dead wrong.

Have you been to Siggraph? Specifically, have you seen the demo reels that discreet has put together over the past few years?

Have you ever heard of Blizzard Entertainment? They use 3d Studio MAX, and when I saw the movies for WarCraft 3, I nearly cried.

Just thought I'd get that out into the open.