Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal

[TEE]

Originally Posted by BJC

To prevent your robot from turning I am going to suggest that you put a giant patch of roughtop on each of your flap-down-field-blockers. I would also make them deploy so when they are in the down position they actually lift the middle of the robot off the ground a tiny bit. This way no one will ever turn you. I would also add a full 15 lbs mini bot for the added weight (place it as low as possible.) This will give you even more weight.

If you do this I would not want to play against you. As you are now, however, we would want to play you every match because as a giant lever you'd be very easy to push past.

my 2 cents

This

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I just want to clear up something so this doesn't grow out of hand. The Wildstang 2003 robot although designed with a wedge (legal in that year) was not designed (and never used) to flip our opponents. It was merely a strategy to allow us to protect the ice and to allow alliance partners to drive up on us for protection if needed. Any robot that flipped over trying to go around our strategy did so under their own driving. Our drivers were practiced to stop driving (or back up) if a team was aggressive so we would have no part in their flip. The wings were articulated and were raised during much of the match.

[staplemonx]

Originally Posted by JesseK

I think that this design is susceptible to easily being turned for two reasons:

1.) The extended frame creates more mechanical advantage for another robot to turn you.
2.) Even with traction wheels on the corners, there's very little weight on the outer corners in the extended positions; thus they provide little protection from another robot turning you.

If you're always beyond the Caution line and get turned into the opponent scoring zone by a high-traction high-torque robot, your robot will receive a penalty, per <G32>.

Thus, solve the anti-turning problem and I think that this is a solid strategy that blocks a good amount of the scoring zone.

The kids brought this issue up as well. One of their solutions was to make the robot exactly 120lb by using sandbags in the extensions to help increase the moment of inertia. They also decided to make all 8 wheels high traction wheels to increase the friction to avoid turning. They are going to be excited to see that their ideas were echoed by some more experienced teams.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by JesseK

If you're always beyond the Caution line and get turned into the opponent scoring zone by a high-traction high-torque robot, your robot will receive a penalty, per <G32>.

Actually, Jesse, I think no penalty. <G61> is my witness on this. Repeatedly doing that, you might be at risk of a yellow card (repeated egregious behavior--being continually turned into the zone) under <T06>, or penalized if you aren't quick enough to pull out. Trust me, high-traction wheels aren't quite a sure anti-turn method. It may just make the turning uglier to look at.

Given that you fit in the 84" diameter circle, I'd say legal, but risky. I can see a few ways to get a robot past you and score. Based on the top-view drawing, you'd be at 85" and change given a full 38" long starting robot, excluding the bumpers on the extensions (83" given a 37" long starting robot, which is recommended, and definitely over with the end and side bumpers on the extension--92" on a 37" robot base), measured corner-corner because that's the easiest way to check fitting in the cylinder. The cylinder, like the sizing box, is unforgiving. It may help to draw one up in your favorite CAD program and fit the robot into it, if you haven't already.

Sandbags: There are other ways to add weight. If there's any hole in the sandbags, and any sand gets out onto the field, you could be penalized under <G45> (damage to arena by sanding) or <R31> (I know it says lubricants, but it could easily be extended to other contaminants--in fact, it used to include all contaminants, but that's not quite relevant this year because that's past years' rules). Try steel plates instead--they're fairly easy to bolt on, and smaller in size, and won't get all over the field if they come loose.

[JesseK]

Hmm, you're right about <G66> Eric, technically. But I don't think the refs would implement it that way after the first warning since 3553's bot may repeatedly prevent another team from scoring just by being in the way within the scoring zone. Indeed, <T06> would be at the discretion of the refs.

[gbrettmiller]

The more I think about <G61> and this thread, along with update 4, the more I'm thinking that <G61> won't apply to the situation where you get knocked into the opposing zone while playing defense.

The rule states that one Alliance can't cause the other to incur a penalty. But if you are playing defense, especially between the caution line and the zone boundary, and you get knocked into the opposing zone, it could be argued that you put yourself in the situation where you would cross into the zone.

I guess my point is, if you plan to play strong defense you may want to stay on the center-field side of the caution line, close to the towers, to avoid any chance of going across the zone line.

[staplemonx]

Here is an updated design that incorporates all of the feedback we received. We ordered the wrong cylinders so those will need to be fixed. We are 82 in long and fit into an 83.75 in radius with the pseudo bumpers. This will be a blocking robot with 4 CIMS, 8x 8” wheels, and we will launch the mini bot from the center section on the top. We will retrrack the extensions prior to moving to deploy the monibot.

We still have to figure out if that break in the bumper is OK. if not we have to figure out another way to get the extensions down. We are planning on making each extension close to 25lb by putting some of the heavy system components in them.

[Nathan Streeter]

Originally Posted by staplemonx

Here is an updated design that incorporates all of the feedback we received. We ordered the wrong cylinders so those will need to be fixed. We are 82 in long and fit into an 83.75 in radius with the pseudo bumpers. This will be a blocking robot with 4 CIMS, 8x 8” wheels, and we will launch the mini bot from the center section on the top. We will retrrack the extensions prior to moving to deploy the monibot.

We still have to figure out if that break in the bumper is OK. if not we have to figure out another way to get the extensions down. We are planning on making each extension close to 25lb by putting some of the heavy system components in them.

The bot looks good, I'm glad you're aiming to make the minibot - resist giving up on it! :-)

A few important comments:
1. Currently the the robot's true bumpers have a small cut-out in them for the "outriggers" to fold through... Those are unfortunately not legal. The robot's bumpers are required to be continuous all the way around the robot, with no exceptions. <R07A>

2. I'm glad you're certain you can fit within 84"! I feel harsh in asking, but will the bottom edge of the "outriggers" extend outside of the 84" while unfolding?

3. You're welcome to construct whatever you like for the "pseudo-bumpers;" however the bumpers that go around the 28"x38" robot must be regulation... I'm not sure if it's just the model, but the regulation bumpers have only two pool noodles - not three stacked on top of each other. <R07E>

4. A not so significant comment... It seems like there are many frame members... I have no idea what your wait looks like, but be sure you have wait for everything... From experience, as soon as a team takes the attitude "wait isn't that much of a concern!" the robot ends up overweight. Make sure you include things like wires, fasteners, and chain in your weight roll-up. Those can add as much as 15+ pounds on the entire robot!


Looking good - I admire your teams' innovation, open designing, and willingness to take risks! Best of luck!

[Tristan Lall]

I was going to run through a list of issues, but then I saw Nathan's post: do what he says! Pay particular attention to the entirety of <R07>.

Your current design is illegal and overbuilt, but is certainly salvageable. Use your CAD program's weight estimation function, to sanity-check your work.

[PAR_WIG1350]

Originally Posted by staplemonx

Here is an updated design that incorporates all of the feedback we received. We ordered the wrong cylinders so those will need to be fixed. We are 82 in long and fit into an 83.75 in radius with the pseudo bumpers. This will be a blocking robot with 4 CIMS, 8x 8” wheels, and we will launch the mini bot from the center section on the top. We will retrrack the extensions prior to moving to deploy the monibot.

We still have to figure out if that break in the bumper is OK. if not we have to figure out another way to get the extensions down. We are planning on making each extension close to 25lb by putting some of the heavy system components in them.

Please tell me you meant to say 83.75 in DIAMETER.

[GaryVoshol]

I concur, you cannot have a gap in your true BUMPERS for the outrigger support to come down.

And what's up with a 3-noodle bumper?

[staplemonx]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

I concur, you cannot have a gap in your true BUMPERS for the outrigger support to come down.

And what's up with a 3-noodle bumper?

We figured we could use a 1x8” piece of wood and get 3 noodles on it to cover all of our major metal. After all of the comments about ramming we got scared that we should be really well protected.

We downsides to a 1X7” piece of wood to get the minimum 6 in of bumper needed to have a two 2.5” noodles on it.

[EricH]

I think y'all need to re-read <R07>. The 6" minimum is length per segment (<R07-D>); the maximum of that dimension is as long as the robot. You need a 3/4" thick x 5" tall piece of plywood as bumper backing (<R07-F>).

I'd also be cautious about the plywood in the corners--because you're changing segments, you may run afoul of <R07-C>'s corner/segment joint-filling rules. In the past, it's been much clearer about whether or not hard parts in corners is prohibited (it was in the past, not sure about this year).

Note that these only apply to the bumpers that are out in the Starting Configuration. Ditto for the extra bumper weight allowance.

[staplemonx]

Originally Posted by PAR_WIG1350

Please tell me you meant to say 83.75 in DIAMETER.

He he

Yes I meant to say diameter

Here is a reduced weight configuration we updated per the comments. We removed almost 20lbs. We also fixed the bumper gap. We also fixed the bumpers to have the recommended 2 noodles. And we also changed our pneumatic solution to make the elevation of the extensions easier to do with a shorter cylinder. Thanks again for everyone’s help. You have saved our team from making a lot of mistakes.

[jvriezen]

Originally Posted by staplemonx

He he

Yes I meant to say diameter

Here is a reduced weight configuration we updated per the comments. We removed almost 20lbs. We also fixed the bumper gap. We also fixed the bumpers to have the recommended 2 noodles. And we also changed our pneumatic solution to make the elevation of the extensions easier to do with a shorter cylinder. Thanks again for everyone’s help. You have saved our team from making a lot of mistakes.

This is looking much better... It still looks like you have two problems with your official BUMPER-- the plywood looks >5" tall-- since each noodle is 2.5" the plywood should just fit behind the noodles. At the corners, the plywood should not over lap-- this is not permitted.

I would recommend submitting a formal Q&A question about your design, asking both about the obscuring of your official team number on your official bumper as well as how G48 might apply.

<G48> Strategies aimed at the destruction, attachment, damage, tipping or entanglement of ROBOTS, MINIBOTS, or HOSTBOTS are not in the spirit of the FRC and are not allowed. Contact with another ROBOT or HOSTBOT inside it‟s FRAME PERIMETER is not allowed. Violation: PENALTY, plus potential disablement and YELLOW CARD

<bluebox>High speed accidental collisions may occur during the MATCH and are an expected part of LOGO MOTION™. ROBOTS place mechanisms outside of the BUMPER PERIMETER at their own risk; no penalties will be assigned for incidental contact with such extended mechanisms. For example, use of wedge-like mechanisms to flip ROBOTS would be considered a violation.<bluebox>

It says: "ROBOTS place mechanisms outside of the BUMPER PERIMETER at their own risk" Does this mean that you assume the risk of being assessed a penalty if another bot pushes you into the zone via only contact with an extension? Hard to say.