Team Update #7

[nitneylion452]

Originally Posted by Henzado

<G69> is the rule of the minimum match score, <G68> is how the scores will be assesed.

Read RevG of the manual

<G67> Scores will be assessed when the MATCH ends and all objects in motion come to rest, or 10 seconds elapses, whichever comes first.

<G68> The minimum MATCH SCORE is zero points.

[Henzado]

My fault, I was looking at our hard copy that we had printed at the start of the build season. I looked it up the online version of the rules and found my error. Thanks for the alert.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Henzado

My fault, I was looking at our hard copy, we printed at the start of the build season. I looked it up the online version of the rules and found my error. Thanks for the alert.

Team Updates are issued every Tuesday and Friday. Make sure you at least have the Updates added to the hard copy, and update the hard copy periodically.

Anyway, about the rule for when scoring happens:
The text of the rule, applied by the GDC to the situation described in Q&A, completely negated the strategy of placing just one piece on every peg to score a lot of points at the start of the build. Someone somewhere forgot to remove that part from the Manual's definition of Hanging, or forgot to look at that particular Q&A and apply it to that strategy, or both.

At least teams that were trying to use that strategy have 3 weeks to redesign their robot... hopefully it'll be as simple as re-gearing the drivetrain, or similar measures.

[vhcook]

Originally Posted by EricH

Team Updates are issued every Tuesday and Thursday.

Tuesday and Friday, usually in the late afternoon.

[nitneylion452]

Originally Posted by Mr.G

QandA is not the rules.....QandA is to help people understand the rules. The rules are the rules.

Their answer in QandA totally contridicted the rules and thus ment nothing.

The Q&A is an OFFICIAL RULING by the GDC. Whatever they say in the Q&A becomes the rule regardless of what the manual says.

[Mr.G]

Originally Posted by nitneylion452

The Q&A is an OFFICIAL RULING by the GDC. Whatever they say in the Q&A becomes the rule regardless of what the manual says.

Where does it say that?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Mr.G

Where does it say that?

It doesn't.

But, when was the last time a Supreme Court ruling wasn't treated as law? The Q&A is the Supreme Court of FRC. It's where you go for intent behind the rule and interpretation of the rule.

[Andy A.]

Originally Posted by EricH

It doesn't.

But, when was the last time a Supreme Court ruling wasn't treated as law?

Off topic, but I can't resist!

"John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it!"

Ok, back to the regularly scheduled program.

[whosdadog]

For those too lazy to open the PDF

[Racer26]

@EricH: Your analogy to the Supreme Court is not a fair one.

Q&A rulings that contradict the rules do not the rules make. This has been hashed out MANY times over the last few years. The GDC themselves have said on several occasions that the ONLY way for them to change the rules of the game is through TEAM UPDATES.

[JesseK]

I'm going to side with MrG on this one, but only to an extent. The littany of information we have to sift through is quite exhausting during the build season. I've barely had time to read all of the Q&A myself. Of course, we're also not trying to walk the line on anything with our strategy so I don't feel I really need to.

However, MrG, just because you didn't read it doesn't mean it won't be enforced as true. It's like speeding tickets, jaywalking, and all of the other 'annoying' rules with purposes and penalties that the common person hasn't bothered to read. If it's possible, have another team evaluate your design or get a mentor/student dedicated to reading the forums in addition to what he/she is doing.

I'm ecstatic about the <R75> update. That was the only rule I had a question about in regards to using a custom keyboard with a virtual joystick emulator in order to make a really nice COTS button board that we can re-use year to year.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by 1075guy

@EricH: Your analogy to the Supreme Court is not a fair one.

Q&A rulings that contradict the rules do not the rules make. This has been hashed out MANY times over the last few years. The GDC themselves have said on several occasions that the ONLY way for them to change the rules of the game is through TEAM UPDATES.

For cases where two rules are in conflict, or seem to be in conflict, the Q&A chooses which one takes precedence. That is what happened there.

Also, note the minibot welding. They allowed it by Q&A. Then it was disallowed, again by Q&A, this time because a needed material was not in <R92>. When asked about this, they issued an update to support the first Q&A ruling, not the second one, even though the second one was the correct one up until the Update came out.

Incidentally, if the Supreme Court were to issue a ruling that was in violation of the Constitution (for the sake of argument, that privately owned guns were illegal--Second Amendment), how long do you think their credibility would last? Right, it wouldn't.

If 99% of people looked at that rule and Q&A combination and saw that they would not be able to move game pieces around and have them count for more points than the peg they were on at the end of the match, the 1% should not complain that the ruling was unclear. The Q&A explained that a piece could not count on two pegs, effectively.

[Eulipian]

Originally Posted by nitneylion452

The Q&A is an OFFICIAL RULING by the GDC. Whatever they say in the Q&A becomes the rule regardless of what the manual says.

If this were correct, there would be no need to amend the rules. The rules have been amended to reflect clarifications explained in the Q&A. The Q&A are not rules.

[pfreivald]

Originally Posted by Eulipian

If this were correct, there would be no need to amend the rules. The rules have been amended to reflect clarifications explained in the Q&A. The Q&A are not rules.

No, but they are a good indication of what the rules were meant to be, and will likely be amended to be.

Remember, the GDC tells us flat-out that the rules should be read with the spirit of the game in mind, and not lawyered to squeeze every possible potential advantage. They tell us this, right in the manual.

So cut 'em a break.

I've done some freelance game design in the past, and I've never had a such a large group of incredibly smart and motivated people set out to break the games I've designed... And yet I've still had to go back and clarify, and re-clarify, and re-write, so that the game in my head matches the game on paper.

Overall, given the complexity of the framework they design every year, I am incredibly impressed by the GDC's ability to put out what is a quality (if not perfect) product year after year.

[TEE]

Originally Posted by Mr.G

Yet another major rules change 3 weeks in with the deletion of :

Once a GAME PIECE has been released by the POSSESSING ROBOT (even momentarily) and is HANGING (e.g. it is fully supported by the PEG), it is considered to be HANGING until the end of the match.

We had planned to just move around the game pieces by taking them on and off each peg. Using one of each game piece to do the whole rack. We think we could do one full rack this way with just our robot. Now our current design is not optimized for the new game design. Why can't they just leave the rules alone instead of constantly changing them.

Now the whole game is minibot or your loose. Our idea would have made a more even game between minibot and robot. And also better to watch.

This was addressed in questions and answers earlier, and there is another rule that specifies that scores are calculated by where the tubes are at the end of the match.