Bag and Tag issues?

[MrForbes]

WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE – a limited amount of FABRICATED ITEMS that are withheld from the shipping requirements (specified in the 2011 FRC Administrative Manual, Section 5) and retained by the team following the shipping deadlines. These items are then hand-carried to a competition event by the team. The OPERATOR CONSOLE is automatically included in the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE. Beyond that, the incoming material maximums specified in Rule <R33> limits the amount of FABRICATED ITEMS included in the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE.

Does not mention bumpers.

<R11> does mention that bumpers are not included when determining the size and weight of the robot--but it does not say they are not counted against the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE.

For the purposes of determining compliance with the weight and volume limitations, the items listed below are NOT considered part of the ROBOT and are NOT included in the weight and volume assessment:
...
B. BUMPER assemblies (including BUMPER covers, if appropriate) that are in
compliance with Rules <R07> and <R08>,
...

[TNT280Staff]

According to the forums the bumpers ARE counted in the withholding allowance if not in the bag.

GDC
Game Design Committee Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,729

Re: Withholding allowance

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Correct, the weight of the OPERATOR CONSOLE and the MINIBOT do not count towards the weight of the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE.

BUMPERS do count towards the weight of the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE. How the TEAM bring them to the event is up to the TEAM.

[eedoga]

Ok, so My team was all sorts of in a panic over this one and then we really read and parsed the rules. The withholding allowance is tricky, especially if you are trying to "ride" the line. Now I feel like we didn't withhold enough.

Rule R32 says we can bring an unlimited amount of COTS items. So, basically anything in the kit of parts that is unaltered counts as a COTS item and falls under this rule, as does anything that is commercially available to all teams.

Rule R33 says 30 pounds of custom fabricated items. So we could have withheld the arm of our robot weighing 24 pounds and probably gotten away with our electronics as well. Of the 24 pounds that make up the arm, a bit of that is the 2 motors which are both COTS items and therefore don't count, as well as the linear sliders, pneumatic valves, nuts and bolts, and so on. Really with the exception of some wire, hose and the aluminum frame of the arm, not much counts against withholding.

Further this rule is incredibly difficult to enforce. Sure you could weigh the robot in its bag and subtract the weight of the bag. In our case the robot weighs just over 91 pounds out of the bag. Then you would have to weigh the custom fabricated parts we plan to put back on our robot at the event. You couldn't count any COTS items. so really that would be some wire, chain, and our bumpers. (If you really wanted to get technical you would have to not count the 8 bolts and woodnuts on the bumpers.) Can't imagine that adds up to 30 pounds given that the heaviest items withheld are all COTS items.

So lets say it does and our bumpers put us over the limit. We then have a few choices. We could bring unaltered bumper materials (COTS) and make new bumpers on site at a cost of $135 or so which is really more of a hassle than anything else, or we could set our maximum weight lower by the weight of the bumpers and lose some aspect of the robot (probably the arm or babybot deployment system) or, rebuild some part of the robot weighing the same as the bumpers from COTS parts at the venue. (Again more of a hassle and waste of money rather than anything else.) I suggest teams in this predicament just spent the money at Andy Mark and make bumpers on site...

Further what is the advantage of keeping your bumpers separate from your robot? As I see it, $135 or so dollars and 2 hours of time for a couple kids on your team. I guess that could make the difference in how many practice rounds you get...

I guess my point is this, My team is constantly striving to be as gracious and professional as we can. We work hard to give to other teams. We work hard to play fair, and we expect that other teams are doing the same. While we don't make the rules, any team that accidentally broke this rule by withholding their bumpers did not due so with the intention of getting some advantage over other teams.

Then again, if it wasn't for this thread I never would have thought about it.

Edoga

[Nemo]

I find it puzzling that bumpers aren't excluded. They don't seem like the type of item the withholding allowance was designed for. The fact that bumpers are exempted from the robot's weight leads to a common sense assumption that they would be exempted from the withholding allowance weight, does it not? I can't really blame anybody for making that assumption and missing the Q&A that addresses the issue directly.

[Migriemsl]

From what we have learne the bumpers ARE included in the witholding allowance wait. We currently were having weight issues with our witholding allowance, but recently discovered they only include the weight of items that you build and have put together. For example; our mini bot when put together is about one pound but when you take the bot apart the bot's one pound doesn't count toward your witholding alliance.

[Mark McLeod]

The Minibot doesn't count towards your withholding allowance in any case.

[pfreivald]

MINIBOTs don't count regardless...

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Alex Cormier

With the ship date and time here, many teams need to bag and tag while others need to crate them up.

I am wondering how many teams put the robot away with the bumpers on?

My prior experiences with bag and tag last year, showed that robots with bumpers still on them had a problem going through normal sized doors.

It's heart breaking to see a well engineered robot not be allowed into the event to compete because of the bumpers being on.


Good Luck this year!

See you soon at FLR.

Was there a prior situation we should know about?