How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?

[AllenGregoryIV]

Lets see how wrong I can be.

- How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
At some of the first week events we will see matches regularly without any successful minibots. Meaning the scores will be in the 12-25 range. In eliminations that is going to rise to 80-100 range for the eventual regional winning alliance. As the season gets longer and minibots get better rarely will we see matches with less than 50 points being scored to win.

- How effective will defense be?
Not very, defense could have been a very good strategy but there are way too many rules that limit it this year. The pinning rule by itself makes defense very tricky because once an opponent touches anything teams are going to back away in fear.

- Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?
Until the tube throwing stops feeder bots are not needed.

- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
Even if they are not thrown in to the open feeding through the slot will be very slow. I imagine teams will throw them to the end of their lane instead of to the middle of the field.

- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
Roller Claws for sure!!
Arms and elevators it depends on who builds them, 148 has a 4 bar arm and 118 has an elevator both are amazing machines and are going to do really well. My team built a roller claw on an elevator that we think will work very well for how we are planning to play the game. I will say that the full double jointed arms are going to be very challenging for teams like they are every year.

- Will floor loading be as important as many think?
Will be make or break for teams. If you can't floor load passing tubes get's way harder and you can't get thrown tubes.

- Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?
Influence will decrease even into the elimination matches of week one because you will see 4 up in several matches.

- How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
There will be some similar designs but due to deployment some teams won't be able to change their minibot too much.

- How would you like to see the game played?
As it will be, with people adapting strategies and making their robots do things they didn't design for to try to gain an advantage. I love to see an alliance figure out how to beat a team in a novel way.

[PayneTrain]

- How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
33% from week one, with total scores going from 60 to 90. Champs are a whole other animal, where we could see max scores.

- How effective will defense be?
As a defender, i would be too worried violating one of the many rules to actually defend. So, no.

- Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?
It will be every bot for itself, but I have not and do not anticipate seeing a feeder that moves faster than a robot's wheels.

- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
They will be slotted through early qualifications, but if you get the right bots and HPs in elims, we could see people chucking triangles to midfield.

- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
The internal claw and 2-bar lift my team made. 5 second total lift, we believe XD

In numbers, I expect Grippers and arms, with some shoddy elevators. Success wise? I believe a high quality elevator can beat the arm, but a consistent elevator is a hard thing to ask for. I don't know how consistent ours is.

- Will floor loading be as important as many think?
I will restate as above; it will be make or break for teams.

- Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?
Also restating above: influence will decrease even into the elimination matches of week one because you will see 4 up in several matches.

- How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
I think teams will be able to master a minibot, by virtue of a simple set of parts, and an infinite amount of tetrix parts able to be brought in.

- How would you like to see the game played?
Making it a good defensive struggle, and figuring out how to devalue endgame. (improbable and impossible)

[Zoughtbaj]

In regard to defense, I'm starting to get the feeling that defensive teams, at least in qualifying matches, will be more of a hindrance rather than assistance. According to the scoring rules, the winning alliance will get as many points as the losing team gets, not including penalties, and the losing team is along the same lines, except with penalties. Under this guise, one might think that, even if you are losing, not to defend at all...

Not to mention, as has been mentioned, the penalties that can more easily be acquired from defending.

[Grim Tuesday]

Originally Posted by Zoughtbaj

In regard to defense, I'm starting to get the feeling that defensive teams, at least in qualifying matches, will be more of a hindrance rather than assistance. According to the scoring rules, the winning alliance will get as many points as the losing team gets, not including penalties, and the losing team is along the same lines, except with penalties. Under this guise, one might think that, even if you are losing, not to defend at all...

Not to mention, as has been mentioned, the penalties that can more easily be acquired from defending.

Are you reading the 2010 rules? This year is Win/Loss/Tie. The ranking points are a tiebreaker, making defense a viable strategy this year.


I feel that defense will play a huge role, especially in the minibot race: If your team has a 4 second minibot, and another has a 2 second one, if your ally can delay the opposing team to the pole by just two seconds, then you've won the race. Thats an extremely small time margin!

[davidthefat]

Defensive bots are essential. The towers are on the side you are defending, the time to get to the towers are cut in half than when trying to score. Deny one "power house" bot from scoring the whole game, and get the minibot to successfully and get first, you have the potential of making a 58 point gap (assuming team is capable of making a logo on the top with the ubertube bonus)

[pfreivald]

In my analysis of the game, the offensive robot will be better able to use the tower as a pick than the defensive robot will, due to penalties for lane incursion. This in and of itself will limit (but not eliminate, of course) defensive effectiveness.

Have I missed something? Am I just flat wrong?

It's happened before. I hope it hasn't happened this time!

[davidthefat]

Originally Posted by pfreivald

In my analysis of the game, the offensive robot will be better able to use the tower as a pick than the defensive robot will, due to penalties for lane incursion. This in and of itself will limit (but not eliminate, of course) defensive effectiveness.

Have I missed something? Am I just flat wrong?

It's happened before. I hope it hasn't happened this time!

I personally think that the offending robot would get the penalties, if there were to be any. (or at least in my interpretations of strategy). Now the robot DOING the ramming is getting the penalty I presume. What if my strategy just consists of getting in the way, driving perpendicular of the offending robot' velocity. Now work is not done by the defending robot in the collision, the offending bot is. Essentially it is a t bone crash.

[pfreivald]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

I personally think that the offending robot would get the penalties, if there were to be any. (or at least in my interpretations of strategy). Now the robot DOING the ramming is getting the penalty I presume. What if my strategy just consists of getting in the way, driving perpendicular of the offending robot' velocity. Now work is not done by the defending robot in the collision, the offending bot is. Essentially it is a t bone crash.

Robot contact has nothing to do with it... I don't think there are any penalties for such a thing in Logomotion.

The difference is that the offensive robot can move into/out of their lane without penalty, while even incidental incursion by a defensive robot will cause a penalty -- or a RED CARD if they touch the offensive robot. Thus, the defensive robot must be much more careful than the offensive robot, because there are two lanes of ingress/egress permitted to the lane.

[Zoughtbaj]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

Are you reading the 2010 rules? This year is Win/Loss/Tie. The ranking points are a tiebreaker, making defense a viable strategy this year.

whoa, wait, did I miss something?

yes I did. you're right, QS is a straight forward 0 1 and 2, RS is tie breaking those. Thank you.

I'm still curious if we will see RS making a difference in the top 8-10 positions, or if ties will be somewhat of a rarity. As far as I can tell, the higher that both sides score, the better benefit for both of them.

In any case, it will be exciting to watch some Week 1 regional streams and see how things turn out.

[Justin Montois]

- How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
In 2007, even when you didn't have to worry about the other teams taking your tubes, an alliance of three robots struggled to score more then 8 tubes. I don't think you will see much different this year. 8 Tubes, one logo, 2 Uber tubes, factor in minibots, Week 1, 45 Wins you a match, 80+ at Champs.

- How effective will defense be?
Very. One robot, designed to play Defense can shut down an entire alliance. If you see a robot with fold down wings at your regional, watch them closely.

- Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?
If a team can't score on the top, i'm telling them to be a feeder. Don't score tubes on the low peg when I can put it up top and triple it's value. Drop it next to me and go get another one. Three top scorers will basically be every team for itself. Anytime that condition doesn't exist, you better hope it turns into a team game.

- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
Throw out.

- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
Elevators and roller claws.

- Will floor loading be as important as many think?
In Quals, Yes. Elims, No.

- Will the mini-bots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?
Yes, yes, yes. If your minibot wasn't your top priority I hope you found a way to score 2 tubes at once.

- How will mini-bots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
Similar. Very, very, similar. Minibots are way too easy to copy.

- How would you like to see the game played?
I love strategy. I would like each match to be played like a high speed chess match. If that means a shutdown defense, or a high octane offense, 2 opposing strategies duking it out is exciting. Nothing is more frustrating to me then when your watching a match and it's painfully obvious the three teams did not talk any sort of strategy at all. Then they walk off the field and wonder why they got smoked.

[pandamonium]

- How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
Double week one qual average to get championships qual average

- How effective will defense be?
Not very.

- Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?
"If a team can't score on the top, i'm telling them to be a feeder. Don't score tubes on the low peg when I can put it up top and triple it's value."
Totally agree with this!


- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
BOTH!

- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
Elevators and roller claws.

- Will floor loading be as important as many think?
YES, it always is!

- Will the mini-bots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as
Week one yes. BUT there influence will definitely drop off. At some point it becomes about consistency over speed.

- How will mini-bots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
Minibots are easy to copy which is one more reason why it is the consistency that will win out. YOU can have a 1/2 second mini bot but if it only works 1/2 of the time how useful is it?

- How would you like to see the game played?
winning alliances will have at least 2 robots that score autonomously. 1 fast minibot and 1 consistent minibot. As well as a team with a well trained drive team.

WHY IS AUTONOMOUS NOT DISCUSSED HERE!!!!
Did I miss an update where they decided to not include it? lol, just kiding.
But seriously I think it is a highly underrated part of this years game.

[dag0620]

Originally Posted by Zoughtbaj

whoa, wait, did I miss something?

yes I did. you're right, QS is a straight forward 0 1 and 2, RS is tie breaking those. Thank you.

I'm still curious if we will see RS making a difference in the top 8-10 positions, or if ties will be somewhat of a rarity. As far as I can tell, the higher that both sides score, the better benefit for both of them.

In any case, it will be exciting to watch some Week 1 regional streams and see how things turn out.

Actually you are both right. Rankings are first generated on the W-L-T system, like years previous to 2010. This is your qualification score.

In order to break ties on this system, you then get a Ranking score on top of your qualifcation score. If you win you get your oppones unpenalised score and If you loose or tie your get your penalised score.

This system gives you WLT, but at the same time looks at how easy or hard your win was, and rewards teams who won by a close call compared to those who just completely dominated in each match.

[HarveyAce]

how often does everyone REALLY think that runner bots will be chosen for alliances in the elim rounds? and what do you think that the average attributes will be common amongst them? would two teams with 1 scorer and 2 runners get in each others ways?

how often does everyone REALLY think that runner bots will be chosen for alliances in the elim rounds?
They will probably be pretty common in the later rounds but not so much in the quals. as far as choosing for alliances, every alliance will probably have at LEAST one runner.

and what do you think that the average attributes will be common amongst them?
They will all have to be fast, with one faster and another that is quick albiet less with more pushing power to overcome any mid-field jamming that may occur.

would two teams with 1 scorer and 2 runners get in each others ways? hard to say. if they were smart, no, they would avoid each other like crazy to score as fast as possible. however, the nearer the endgame, the more interference we may see due to deployment and defense of such.

just my spin on the issue.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by HarveyAce

how often does everyone REALLY think that runner bots will be chosen for alliances in the elim rounds?

Teams tend to drastically overestimate how many other teams will be good scorers at regionals. A lot of teams will have a lot of trouble scoring, especially at their first event, and will be looking for things to do other than pure scoring. Tube passing is one. Defense is another, but this game doesn't call for as much defense as it seems in my personal opinion.

and what do you think that the average attributes will be common amongst them? would two teams with 1 scorer and 2 runners get in each others ways?

Not any more than 3 scorers versus 3 scorers would. 2 runners for 2 slots is a pretty good balance, with some "spot" defense here and there to slow down critical tubes.

[ttldomination]

how often does everyone REALLY think that runner bots will be chosen for alliances in the elim rounds?

If my alliance has two robots that can pick up from the ground. Why waste a pick on a robot that will bring me tubes when I've got human players for this?

If it came down a picking a robot, I'd much rather pick a defensive bot than a runner bot.

and what do you think that the average attributes will be common amongst them?

Runner should be what they say they are. Runners. If they aren't fast and then they aren't running.

would two teams with 1 scorer and 2 runners get in each others ways?

Nope. If you a runner for each slot, then it's fine because both runners can stay on opposite halves of the field. But, I think you'll find some congestion between the runners and the opposing alliance. It's a tight squeeze when 5 bots are in one half of the field.

- Sunny