How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?

[Hawiian Cadder]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

How does it take 30 seconds for a kitbot to run across the field twice? You can run a tube in 15 seconds, easily.

This is assuming that one of the runners is completely unable to do anything the second you decide to play defense on them (not true), and it also assumes that the scorer never has an opportunity to take a tube.

You can't take a robot out of a match that easily, between the pinning rule and protected zones.

one thing that may factor into that is an all time high in mechanum drives. personally i think that a good tank drive will be able to push all of the mechanums around without difficulty. thus i conclude that in in elims, where the primary feeders and things to play defense on will be kit-bots (super fast, no pushing power, cant turn well) and mechanums (not as maneuverable on the open feild as a good tank, and not as powerfull either.) thus i think that the stated strategy is only good if you have a custom setup tank, and it is early in the day Friday.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

My Predictions:

- How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
Average scores will increase about 30-50% between week 1 and champs

- How effective will defense be?
Very effective. Many offensive teams will over estimate their bots scoring abilities and will be limites in scoring when good defense is played.

- Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?
This will depend on the alliances robot capabilities and will change from match to match

- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
Thrown ... although I believe this will play into a defensive starvation strategy.

- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
Minibots


- Will floor loading be as important as many think?
Yes


- Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?
Minibots will domonate ... although scoring may catch up by championships (unless defens proves as good as I believe it will be)

- How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
Teams will gravitate towards 4-5 effective designs.

- How would you like to see the game played?
Fairly ... with no major rule changes after week 1

[waialua359]

Teams that dont have minibots with a deployment will continue to NOT have one from weeks 1-6.
In any regional match, if one alliance can put two minibots on the pole and the other alliance cant put any, GAME OVER. As a scouter and coach, the first thing I am going to ask teams is about their minibots or lackthereof.

I'm on the opposing side. I think that this year may be one of the most boring yet. It is essentially a copy of Rack 'N' Roll for the most part, which means that we will mainly see teams either repeating what they did for Rack 'N' Roll, or doing whatever a winning team did.

Defense, one of my favorite things to build a robot for, will be either too weak, or impossible to get around. Early on, teams will focus on scoring ONLY, and when teams try to defend, it will be too easy! There are many places where it will be hard for a robot to maneuver, and blocking those places will be a small challenge for the other teams. For the most part, robots this year are going to have a lot of telescoping arms, or elevator-like mechanisms, that cannot go out far, just up. It will be easy to block an incoming robot from scoring if they cannot move their hanging mechanism near the pegs. I've also seen many designs built for defense that cannot score, but completely block off an opponent when they try to come back after receiving a tube, or when they try to get near the feeding station. The competition will be fun, since all FIRST competitions are, but the creativity level and exciting new robots will be at an all time low.

Of course, this is just my opinion, but it does make sense.

- How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
Depends. If you have scoring machines coupled with an amazing defense, and good throwers, then it's going to be high to low. Otherwise, it'll depend on the robots.

- How effective will defense be?
Personally, not very much. I say it depends on the robots you go against. Elevators will be easy to block, while arms may be harder.

- Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?
It all depends on the strategy of the alliances. Whatever works, but in order to have feederbots, you'll need good throwers that can get the tubes half way across the field, and feederbots that can get the tubes off the ground quickly.

- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
If teams have good throwers, who can accurately throw the tubes across the field, then throwing is what they want. Feeding is only viable if you have a robot that can easily get fed from the feeder and get out of the feeding area, and across the field safely.

- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
All will be good. Elevators are easy to get up to the maximum height, but can be inaccurate and must be next to the pegs to score. Rotating arms (like the one we use), can score on the pegs from OUTSIDE the scoring zone, which is useful if being blocked, and can throw tubes far ahead of them if they are blocked, so that a teammate can get it. Arms would have to be accurate, and fast to move, though. (Which ours is)

- Will floor loading be as important as many think?
Like I said before, if an alliance has good throwers, then robots need to be ready to get tubes anywhere, from ANY position. This includes leaning up against a wall.

- Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?
Early on when the minibots are still in development, they could make or break a match. Later on when all teams have seen the other minibots, they will be just a scoring factor, that everyone has.

- How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
I think that by the championships, everybody will have a similar method of traveling up the pole. I've already seen 4 teams use our method, but they probably didn't steal it.

- How would you like to see the game played?
I would like to see the matches played with different strategies in the beginning, but having teams mix their strategies together in the elimination rounds.

[Bob Steele]

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256

- Rotating arms (like the one we use), can score on the pegs from OUTSIDE the scoring zone, which is useful if being blocked,

How can you have an arm that scores the top rung from OUTSIDE the scoring zone without being over 84" long? I don't see this... if you are being blocked... the blocker will be between you and the scoring grid...which means your robot will be out at the yellow line or beyond... If you have an arm on your robot that long you would be beyond 84"....

Remember its not as simple as just going over an opponent that is right under the goals...they have to be 6 feet away from the goals...

I just can't see this... can you explain?

[Grim Tuesday]

Originally Posted by Bob Steele

How can you have an arm that scores the top rung from OUTSIDE the scoring zone without being over 84" long? I don't see this... if you are being blocked... the blocker will be between you and the scoring grid...which means your robot will be out at the yellow line or beyond... If you have an arm on your robot that long you would be beyond 84"....

Remember its not as simple as just going over an opponent that is right under the goals...they have to be 6 feet away from the goals...

I just can't see this... can you explain?

I disagree: Scoring outside the Zone is a disadvantage to you, since a defender can easilly knock you around.

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

I disagree: Scoring outside the Zone is a disadvantage to you, since a defender can easilly knock you around.

We have sturdy robot a drive train, so it'll be hard to push us around. Our arm can go high, and long, so we should be able to get the tube over the opposing robot. Our engineering team knows more about how that works. I'm just a programmer. We can even spit tubes out, about a foot to 2 feet, so we can easily get OVER an opposing robot.

[pandamonium]

are those of you promoting the power of defense in this years game considering the heavy weight that a 30 point penalty carries and how easy it is to incur such a penalty...

Originally Posted by pandamonium

are those of you promoting the power of defense in this years game considering the heavy weight that a 30 point penalty carries and how easy it is to incur such a penalty...

That's why you choose a team for your alliance that can play defense without getting any penalties.

[Grim Tuesday]

Originally Posted by pandamonium

are those of you promoting the power of defense in this years game considering the heavy weight that a 30 point penalty carries and how easy it is to incur such a penalty...

Then you defend without pinning.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

Then you defend without pinning.

Good luck with that.
Forget looking at 2007. Look at 2005 where a similar devastating penalty awaited teams who foolishly played defense near the loading zone AND THEY STILL DIDI IT!
It's one thing to play Smash Everything With The Opposite Bumper Color Defense which teams will be cured of wanting to use with the first 30 point penalty levied against them and it's another to be consistent at playing effective defense when FIRST is going out of it's way to legislate it out.

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

Good luck with that.
Forget looking at 2007. Look at 2005 where a similar devastating penalty awaited teams who foolishly played defense near the loading zone AND THEY STILL DIDI IT!
It's one thing to play Smash Everything With The Opposite Bumper Color Defense which teams will be cured of wanting to use with the first 30 point penalty levied against them and it's another to be consistent at playing effective defense when FIRST is going out of it's way to legislate it out.

Then don't play defense right next to the loading zone!

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256

Then don't play defense right next to the loading zone!

Funny, alot of team did that and 2005.
And considering so many teams apparent natural aversion to actually reading the rules I expect them to do the same this year as well readily and often.

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

Funny, alot of team did that and 2005.
And considering so many teams apparent natural aversion to actually reading the rules I expect them to do the same this year as well readily and often.

But you don't HAVE to. Teams are not required to play defense next to the loading zone. My team already has a map of where our defensive player will go, and what they will do.

We read the rules!