How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?

[Wayne TenBrink]

Now that we are all bagged & crated and waiting for the Week 1 events, how do you expect to see Logomotion be played and develop as the season progresses?

- How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
- How effective will defense be?
- Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?
- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
- Will floor loading be as important as many think?
- Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?
- How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
- How would you like to see the game played?

[Alex Cormier]

- How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
I say close to double, starting at 40.

- How effective will defense be?
Not really early on, will be stronger towards champs.

- Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?
Each regional will probably see the same, a change from quals to elims. Quals will be some what self, elims will be more like one team.

- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
Early weeks, maybe see more thrown, later weeks feed/kept in safe zone.

- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
Split decision, I helped build an elevator with a roller claw.

- Will floor loading be as important as many think?
Yes. x3

- Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?
Early weeks yes, later weeks it should even out.

- How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
I don't think the same way as others on this one. I dn't think we will see a drastic copy cat come champs. The basis is, team will be keeping those as little secret. Also they are so complicated to gain the .5sec edge.

- How would you like to see the game played?
I would love to see one main scorer and two feeders. Gather all tubes, last 30 seconds the feeders get ready to deploy mini and the main scorer makes all logos.

My thoughts without seeing much week 0 footage and much testing of our own robot. We will be playing week 1 at FLR.

[Wayne TenBrink]

Here are my predictions - documented so I can eat them later:
- Early season average winning scores in qualification matches will be below 50. Early average losing score under 15. Late season average winning score around 100. Late season average losing score around 40. Late season elimination round scores will be higher and closer - around 120 to 90. High score 145.
- The impact of defense will decline as more alliances realize that their struggling partners are more valuable as feeders than as blockers. Fast hangers will be limited by tube supply and a feeder could increase their supply by a full Logo per match.
- More tubes will be thrown as the season goes on. It is faster than driving if done properly, and loose tubes won't turn out to be that big of a benefit to your opponents. You can afford to lose a few unless you plan on hanging 18 tubes a match. Besides, would you drive across the field to pick up a loose tube in a herd of bots if your feeder had just laid one in your safe zone? And how many robots playing defense will be good enough at floor pickup or herding to steal it from you?
- Floor pickup will be to Logomotion what ball handling was to Breakaway.
- The minibot race will become more exciting as the season goes on, but their actual influence will decline. If there is only one that works in a match, those 30 points will define the winner and be predictable. When there are four in a match, the net point margin will be less but it will be very fun to watch.
- I would like to see Logomotion turn into a speed contest with feeders and hangers working as a team, and where dedicated defense bots are seen as a sign of desperation by an alliance that knows it can't win the hanging race. I would like to see the rack scores close enough that its anybody's game going into the minbot race (except maybe when my team is out there).

[nuggetsyl]

- Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?

I think mini bots have way to much power in this years game. I am hoping to be wrong. It will make the end of the game more exciting to watch at the championship finals but IMO really boring in normal rounds because your going to have the haves and have not's.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by nuggetsyl

- Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?

I think mini bots have way to much power in this years game. I am hoping to be wrong. It will make the end of the game more exciting to watch at the championship finals but IMO really boring in normal rounds because your going to have the haves and have not's.

I just saw this comment, and thought of something.

Since most Week 1 Average Scoring Estimates are around 50 points or below, I wonder if we'll see two Powerhouse teams chose to not score any tubes and just deploy two Sub-Two Second Mini-bots? Now that I think about it, if both teams were to score an Ubertube on the top row and then come in first and second in the mini-bot race, they would win 90% of week one Qualification - if not elimination - matches.

[Swampdude]

Hmmm. So seed 1 (with the fastest minibot at the regional) picks the second fastest minibot and both with consistent ubertube auto scorers. Then 2 play defense the whole match, with 1 scoring, shutting down the other team. Then deploy and win the 30 and 20 point bonuses getting 62 + the tube scores... I like it...

[Chris is me]

Why even bother with the defense in that scenario? there's no way they'll make up a 62 point deficit faster than the best two teams at the regional.

[Swampdude]

because the only way they can beat you is with more tube scores, so you slow that down as best you can. plus you jam up there end of the field with 4-5 bots. also at the end game your right next to your post.

[rees2001]

Originally Posted by Swampdude

because the only way they can beat you is with more tube scores, so you slow that down as best you can. plus you jam up there end of the field with 4-5 bots. also at the end game your right next to your post.

Update #13
<G48-C> ALLIANCE ROBOTS may not work together to blockade the FIELD in an attempt to stop the flow of the MATCH. This rule has no effect on individual ROBOT-to-ROBOT defense.

Violation: PENALTY plus RED CARD

[Swampdude]

I'm thinking the latter part of that rule where it's essentially 2 on 2 (or man on man coverage) and not an organized blockade. My primary defense method would be to hit the tube that they want to pick up. But I guess it's debatable as to what your trying to do when things get congested. Maybe we need clarification on the logistics of that rule. Interesting...

[pandamonium]

Update #13
<G48-C> ALLIANCE ROBOTS may not work together to blockade the FIELD in an attempt to stop the flow of the MATCH. This rule has no effect on individual ROBOT-to-ROBOT defense.

Violation: PENALTY plus RED CARD

Is putting 2 robots in between your two towers preventing robots from getting to or from the scoring grid considered a blockade? Because the robots can still travel around the towers through the lane.

does this rule pretty much mean that you cant have 2 or 3 robots from your alliance near each other on defense?

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by Swampdude

Hmmm. So seed 1 (with the fastest minibot at the regional) picks the second fastest minibot and both with consistent ubertube auto scorers. Then 2 play defense the whole match, with 1 scoring, shutting down the other team. Then deploy and win the 30 and 20 point bonuses getting 62 + the tube scores... I like it...

This is actually a pretty good idea.

My hypothetical situation was based on a Qualification match, so I just assumed that the two powerhouses were playing against an alliance of two "normal" teams.

But, in your elimination strategy, defense actually makes sense. You can play defense right around the gap in the towers, and at no time are you ever really that far from the towers. At 20 seconds or so, you get into position for the end game and then once the towers go live you deploy and win.

Shoot, you still have your 3rd robot too, they could put up tubes the whole time or something.

[JesseK]

This is from an elim's perspective; quals are up in the air.


- How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
50%, From Week 1's top score to Einstein's top score. Not sure about averages.

- How effective will defense be?
Effective against the top bot; however this year there are more pictures and videos of good-working bots than ever; either we're getting good with video or more bots really do work prior to ship. Given penalties and such, it will be effective in assisting to close the scoring gap, but I do not believe it will shut down an entire alliance.

- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
Thrown. It's too crowded in the lane.

- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
It didn't matter so much in 2007 (lift vs arm) or 2008 (lift/arm vs launch). So long as the tube gets to the high pegs, it doesn't matter tbh. Well-built roller claws have the advantage, but tenacity and driver practice will close the gap for quick grippers. Quick grippers are typically simpler to maintain as well.

- Will floor loading be as important as many think?
Heh. If the "many" were to answer this question then the obvious answer is 'yes'. I'm in that group of "many".

- Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?
A bonus is a bonus, during a different part of the game. I think that minibot influence will remain the from the perspective of those who do not have two: they will remain at a disadvantage throughout the season. Those alliances that do have two minbots to go up will always have the advantage. 0.5 seconds will matter in a match or two. Minibots will only define winners (per se) in matches where 3-4 of the 6 are defenders (typical of elims with the 7th/8th seed).

- How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
I'm sure they will be, just like we'll see teams scrap their skinny roller claws for wider roller claws. It's iterative and open. That's the fun about this competition -- it's so frustrating to design your own bot only to have it trumped by bots with many more resources/ingenuity -- yet it's just as inspirational to compete against those robots, learn, and come back for more later. Plus, those bots typically have more than just 1 great design on their overall bot -- so copycatting really isn't as huge an advantage as we'd think (imo).

- How would you like to see the game played?
4 minibots every match; "Epsilon" formations; "wingmen", etc. It would be interesting to watch organized strategy, not organized chaos.

[rees2001]

How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?In early weeks (1-3) you will see some teams not scoring over 12 and others putting up 40+ on their own. As it gets to Championship most scores will average out around 60 to 30.

- How effective will defense be?during the first 1:30 of the match the best they can do is hope to knock a thrown tube down but they will just end up keeping their own alliance’s score down. In the final 30 seconds they can possibly keep teams with weak drivetrains from even getting to the pole to deploy. (any wonder why you are seeing teams that have had dominant swerve drive using 6 or 8 wheel drive with 2 speeds. They are getting to the pole, good luck stopping them.)

- Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?A good alliance will coordinate efforts. Help push thrown tubes to scorers. If it is every team for itself it had better be an amazing bot.

- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?Why drive 50 feet when you can have the weakest scorer on the alliance push thrown tube a couple of feet?

- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?Fast pickup & delivery to the peg. I don’t discriminate on type.

- Will floor loading be as important as many think?If you want to score quickly.

- Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?In the first 2 to 3 weeks minibot will make or break the game. If you have 2 good minibots on a qualification alliance there is no point in even playing with the tubes. There will be matches in the early weeks where NO minibot scores. 1 working minibot will make or break. You will also see teams with weak drive systems needing to leave the tubes with a minute left to make sure they can get to the pole.

- How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?By Championship most useful minibots will be under 3 seconds. No team with a greater than 3.5 second minibot will make eliminations at Championship. Many teams will not stop working on the minibots others will not make any improvements. Improve or perish.

- How would you like to see the game played?I agree that the rules need to stay the same. I hope defense is limited to keeping teams from minibot deployment. Dexterity and speed with the tubes will make the game fun to watch. The minibot will make the end game exciting. I just hope penalties don’t become the deciding factor in this game.

[IKE]

Look through the old Looking Forward Posts. Reapply the titles to this years game, and you will have an accurrate portrait of how things will go.