Go to Post Oh, please, please, GDC! Give us a corn game! - Richard Wallace [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Technical > Programming
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-03-2011, 22:22
Jimmy the Kidd's Avatar
Jimmy the Kidd Jimmy the Kidd is offline
Programmer, Scouter, Tactician, etc
FRC #0364 (Team Fusion)
Team Role: Tactician
 
Join Date: May 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Gulfport MS
Posts: 71
Jimmy the Kidd is an unknown quantity at this point
I was wondering...

Is a team's code protected under some kind of creative license? What keeps other teams from taking their code (besides, you know, not making it public)? Has that happened before?
__________________

The GDC needs to write the rules once and let the game be what the game is going to be. There's little that's fun about being told exactly how to play with your toys. - Madison
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-03-2011, 22:56
pfreivald's Avatar
pfreivald pfreivald is online now
Registered User
AKA: Patrick Freivald
FRC #1551 (The Grapes of Wrath)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Naples, NY
Posts: 2,295
pfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I was wondering...

No, a team's code doesn't have any kind of intrinsic protection. That said, I've never heard of one team snaking another team's code without permission to use it.
__________________
Patrick Freivald -- Mentor
Team 1551
"The Grapes of Wrath"
Bausch & Lomb, PTC Corporation, and Naples High School

I write books, too!
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-03-2011, 22:59
Chris is me's Avatar
Chris is me Chris is me is online now
no bag, vex only, final destination
AKA: Pinecone
FRC #0228 (GUS Robotics); FRC #2170 (Titanium Tomahawks)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Glastonbury, CT
Posts: 7,611
Chris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Chris is me
Re: I was wondering...

Code, being intellectual property, is protected under copyright law.

I highly doubt any FIRST team would sue another in civil court over use of code.
__________________
Mentor / Drive Coach: 228 (2016-?)
...2016 Waterbury SFs (with 3314, 3719), RIDE #2 Seed / Winners (with 1058, 6153), Carver QFs (with 503, 359, 4607)
Mentor / Consultant Person: 2170 (2017-?)
---
College Mentor: 2791 (2010-2015)
...2015 TVR Motorola Quality, FLR GM Industrial Design
...2014 FLR Motorola Quality / SFs (with 341, 4930)
...2013 BAE Motorola Quality, WPI Regional #1 Seed / Delphi Excellence in Engineering / Finalists (with 20, 3182)
...2012 BAE Imagery / Finalists (with 1519, 885), CT Xerox Creativity / SFs (with 2168, 118)
Student: 1714 (2009) - 2009 Minnesota 10,000 Lakes Regional Winners (with 2826, 2470)
2791 Build Season Photo Gallery - Look here for mechanism photos My Robotics Blog (Updated April 11 2014)
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-03-2011, 23:04
pfreivald's Avatar
pfreivald pfreivald is online now
Registered User
AKA: Patrick Freivald
FRC #1551 (The Grapes of Wrath)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Naples, NY
Posts: 2,295
pfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I was wondering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me View Post
Code, being intellectual property, is protected under copyright law.
Almost definitely untrue, if one is using anything from the established libraries.
__________________
Patrick Freivald -- Mentor
Team 1551
"The Grapes of Wrath"
Bausch & Lomb, PTC Corporation, and Naples High School

I write books, too!
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-03-2011, 23:05
Chris is me's Avatar
Chris is me Chris is me is online now
no bag, vex only, final destination
AKA: Pinecone
FRC #0228 (GUS Robotics); FRC #2170 (Titanium Tomahawks)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Glastonbury, CT
Posts: 7,611
Chris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Chris is me
Re: I was wondering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pfreivald View Post
Almost definitely untrue, if one is using anything from the established libraries.
Referencing a public domain (?) library does not make all derivative work inherently public domain.
__________________
Mentor / Drive Coach: 228 (2016-?)
...2016 Waterbury SFs (with 3314, 3719), RIDE #2 Seed / Winners (with 1058, 6153), Carver QFs (with 503, 359, 4607)
Mentor / Consultant Person: 2170 (2017-?)
---
College Mentor: 2791 (2010-2015)
...2015 TVR Motorola Quality, FLR GM Industrial Design
...2014 FLR Motorola Quality / SFs (with 341, 4930)
...2013 BAE Motorola Quality, WPI Regional #1 Seed / Delphi Excellence in Engineering / Finalists (with 20, 3182)
...2012 BAE Imagery / Finalists (with 1519, 885), CT Xerox Creativity / SFs (with 2168, 118)
Student: 1714 (2009) - 2009 Minnesota 10,000 Lakes Regional Winners (with 2826, 2470)
2791 Build Season Photo Gallery - Look here for mechanism photos My Robotics Blog (Updated April 11 2014)
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-03-2011, 23:19
theprgramerdude theprgramerdude is offline
WPI Freshman
AKA: Alex
FRC #2503 (Warrior Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Brainerd, Minnesota
Posts: 347
theprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud of
Re: I was wondering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me View Post
Referencing a public domain (?) library does not make all derivative work inherently public domain.
It would if that public domain used is made public through the GPL.
__________________
Attending: MN Duluth Regional
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-03-2011, 23:26
pfreivald's Avatar
pfreivald pfreivald is online now
Registered User
AKA: Patrick Freivald
FRC #1551 (The Grapes of Wrath)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Naples, NY
Posts: 2,295
pfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I was wondering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me View Post
Referencing a public domain (?) library does not make all derivative work inherently public domain.
I know. While I haven't researched the particulars of FIRST code, and am not an IP lawyer, I've signed my share of NDAs and developed my share of inherently copyrighted materials (from novels to encryption algorithms) to be fairly confident in my initial assertion...

...including on the general mootness of the conversation!
__________________
Patrick Freivald -- Mentor
Team 1551
"The Grapes of Wrath"
Bausch & Lomb, PTC Corporation, and Naples High School

I write books, too!
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-03-2011, 23:28
EricVanWyk EricVanWyk is offline
Registered User
no team
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Boston
Posts: 1,597
EricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to EricVanWyk
Re: I was wondering...

If you wish to re-use last year's code this year, you will have had to make it publicly available to all teams per R22. Presumably, this rule will stand for next season as well.
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-03-2011, 00:13
MattC9's Avatar
MattC9 MattC9 is offline
Registered User
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 435
MattC9 has a spectacular aura aboutMattC9 has a spectacular aura aboutMattC9 has a spectacular aura about
Re: I was wondering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricVanWyk View Post
If you wish to re-use last year's code this year, you will have had to make it publicly available to all teams per R22. Presumably, this rule will stand for next season as well.
Im not a programmer, so this isn't my turf. I just have a few questions.

Why would you have to make it publicly available and how would you do this? Also if I get a test code for a 6WD robot that is publicly available and use it on a competition robot, then reuse it for next year's robot, would I have to make it publicly available?
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-03-2011, 00:20
davidthefat davidthefat is offline
Alumni
AKA: David Yoon
FRC #0589 (Falkons)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: California
Posts: 792
davidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud of
Re: I was wondering...

So I never understood why in the world anyone in FRC would want to hide their code. Unless it is absolutely hideous, I wouldn't care if anyone saw my code. If it is super advanced algorithms, I'll use bit and pointer arithmetics and never comment to hide my intentions. Not serious about that part, but what is there to hide?
__________________
Do not say what can or cannot be done, but, instead, say what must be done for the task at hand must be accomplished.
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-03-2011, 00:32
Radical Pi Radical Pi is offline
Putting the Jumper in the Bumper
AKA: Ian Thompson
FRC #0639 (Code Red Robotics)
Team Role: Programmer
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: New York
Posts: 655
Radical Pi has a spectacular aura aboutRadical Pi has a spectacular aura aboutRadical Pi has a spectacular aura about
Re: I was wondering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattC9 View Post
Also if I get a test code for a 6WD robot that is publicly available and use it on a competition robot, then reuse it for next year's robot, would I have to make it publicly available?
See the Blue Box under R22. Specifically this section:

Quote:
Example: A different team develops a similar solution during the fall, and plans to use the developed software on their competition ROBOT. After completing the software, they post it in a generally accessible public forum and make the code available to all teams. Because they have made their software generally available (per the Blue Box in the definition of COTS, it is considered COTS software and they can use it on their ROBOT.
In summary, the software when downloaded was considered COTS. If said software is edited, it is no longer COTS until the revised software has been posted publicly, at which point it is again COTS and can be used next year.

One question though. It seems like the blue box under R22 conflicts with the one under the definition of COTS. See the bolded sections:

Quote:
Originally Posted by R22 Blue Box
Example: A different team develops a similar solution during the fall, and plans to use the developed software on their competition ROBOT. After completing the software, they post it in a generally accessible public forum and make the code available to all teams. Because they have made their software generally available (per the Blue Box in the definition of COTS, it is considered COTS software and they can use it on their ROBOT.
The COTS box, however, has this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by COTS Blue Box
For the purposes of the FRC, generally available software modules obtained from open sources (e.g. professional publications, commonly used FRC community accessible web resources, industry source code repositories, etc.) that are not specifically affiliated with individual FRC teams shall be considered COTS items.
Tell me if I'm mis-interpreting something, but isn't the posted code affiliated with an FRC team, and therefore not COTS, which is in conflict with the scenario listed in R22. Which one's right?
__________________

"To have no errors would be life without meaning. No strugle, no joy"
"A network is only as strong as it's weakest linksys"
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-03-2011, 00:59
Kevin Sevcik's Avatar
Kevin Sevcik Kevin Sevcik is offline
(Insert witty comment here)
FRC #0057 (The Leopards)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,599
Kevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Kevin Sevcik Send a message via Yahoo to Kevin Sevcik
Re: I was wondering...

Just to inject a little more info into the conversation, the C++ WPILib is BSD licensed. Only requirements are that you maintain the WPILib BSD license notice. So Chris is correct that teams hold the copyright to their code, as with any other work of this nature.

IANAL, but I don't think a team would give up their copyright just because they posted the code on their website. Granted that it'd be much more definite if they actually note the copyright in the code or on the page, etc.
__________________
The difficult we do today; the impossible we do tomorrow. Miracles by appointment only.

Lone Star Regional Troubleshooter
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-03-2011, 01:42
dtengineering's Avatar
dtengineering dtengineering is offline
Teaching Teachers to Teach Tech
AKA: Jason Brett
no team (British Columbia FRC teams)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 1,827
dtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I was wondering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy the Kidd View Post
Is a team's code protected under some kind of creative license? What keeps other teams from taking their code (besides, you know, not making it public)? Has that happened before?
Well, if you are making your code public, presumably it is because you want to share it and help other teams make their robot better. While I would be disappointed to see a team just do a direct "copy and paste", I would be delighted if they were to study it, understand it, and recreate code with a similar function.

If you are making your code public and you don't want a team to look at it and learn from it, or even just copy and paste it, then why on Earth are you making it public?

Now, if you don't make your code public, then GP presents a team from taking it without permission. It is worth noting, however that other teams are part of the public, so when you make your code available to the public, you are, by definition, making it available to other teams.

Jason
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-03-2011, 15:18
Joe Ross's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Joe Ross Joe Ross is offline
Registered User
FRC #0330 (Beachbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 8,559
Joe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I was wondering...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Pi View Post
The COTS box, however, has this:

Quote:
For the purposes of the FRC, generally available software modules obtained from open sources (e.g. professional publications, commonly used FRC community accessible web resources, industry source code repositories, etc.) that are not specifically affiliated with individual FRC teams shall be considered COTS items.
Tell me if I'm mis-interpreting something, but isn't the posted code affiliated with an FRC team, and therefore not COTS, which is in conflict with the scenario listed in R22. Which one's right?
Grammatically, the modifier goes immediately after the item it's modifying. In this case, saying not affiliated with an individual team goes immediately after open sources, not after software modules. It says that the code must be posted somewhere not affiliated with a specific team. You can't post it on your team website or your team forum, because teams wouldn't be expected to look there. You can post it on a FRC community accessible we resource (eg chiefdelphi, FIRST Forums, NI FIRST community, think tank, etc) or a industry source code repository (eg google code, github, etc).

This does not conflict with <R22>
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-03-2011, 15:41
Tristan Lall's Avatar
Tristan Lall Tristan Lall is offline
Registered User
FRC #0188 (Woburn Robotics)
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 2,484
Tristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I was wondering...

I'm coming late to the IP discussion, but just to clarify some terms:
  • In the U.S., copyright is automatic. If you create a creative work as part of a private or non-federal government entity (e.g. yourself, a business, most state and local governments, etc.), it is automatically protected.
  • In the U.S., public domain means no copyright (i.e. the copyright expired, was abrogated, or never existed).
  • The GPL (GNU General Public License) is a copyright licence which allows you to modify and redistribute the work only under certain conditions (one of which is that derivatives will be available under the GPL). If it's already public domain, the GPL is irrelevant.
  • The same goes for Creative Commons licences, except that the "ShareAlike" provision is optional (i.e. the copyright holder can choose not to require it).
  • Code is considered a creative work, and is therefore copyrightable; algorithms are a grey area. Algorithms are sometimes held to be patentable, but this is another can of worms.
So basically, Chris is right. Code, even from a GPL-licenced library, is copyrighted, unless it has for some reason fallen into the public domain. If copyrighted, you can use it under the terms of the licence offered, or under fair use (in the U.S.) or fair dealing (in Canada and elsewhere).
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:42.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi