Interesting rule calls from the Detroit District

[Chris Hibner]

Originally Posted by TEE

Also, although this is not one of the three situations previously mentioned, the following is another interesting one that caused us to replay Match 60 3 times (we won the first 2, but lost the second 2, and so ultimately lost)

"<T17> If, in the judgment of the Head Referee, an “ARENA fault” occurs that affects either the play or the outcome of the MATCH, the MATCH will be replayed. Example ARENA faults include broken field elements, power failure to a portion of the field, improper activation of the field control system, errors by field personnel, etc.

In match 60, the clock that the blue alliance looks at started displaying random numbers and figures with about 4-8 seconds left in the match, and so we had to replay the match. When I went and asked the head referee how this fault affected "either the play or the outcome of the MATCH", he said it didn't matter; the field personnel classified it as an arena fault, and so the match had to be replayed. I showed him the rule, and he said "team 51 came and told me that the clock malfunctioned and affected their game play, and that's all it takes" (which I'm unsure if that's true or not... it seems absurd that a clock malfunctioning after the deployment period started would affect the play or outcome of a match). He then continued to say that he didn't care when the clock malfunctioned, that the fact of it malfunctioning at all was enough to replay the match. Later, when the blue alliance won, but the clock still malfunctioned, we replayed the match again anyways, in spite of the fact that it had no impact on anyone's gameplay.

If this precedent, and my reasoning, are correct, an arena fault doesn't actually need to affect anything for there to be a rematch. O.o

Thoughts? Comments?

Edit: Members of the blue alliance, if the malfunctioning clock actually did affect your playing, I apologize for calling it absurd

In the original match in question, the clock malfunctioned with approximately 15-20 seconds to go in the match. It was not after the deployment period had begun.

Team 903 from the blue alliance was lined up with the tower waiting to deploy their minibot and did not deploy at the 10 second mark because they didn't know how much time was left and they didn't want to risk getting their tower disabled. They ended up deploying well after the start of the deployment period and lost the minibot race. I believe the red alliance won the original match by 5 points, so the minibot race affected the outcome of the match.

I was sitting in the stands and the referee question circle was right in front of me (about 6 feet away). Members from 903 stood in the circle after the match. No one from team 51 was present while I was in the stands. Just about the time the head referee came to talk to the 903 student representative, I left the stands so I guess it's possible that someone from 51 later showed up. At that time, 903 was ranked in the top 8 so a win was very important for them.

I didn't find out the match would be replayed until about an hour later.

To be honest, at the time I was more upset at us for losing that match so I didn't care about the the clock issue. We delayed significantly before deploying our minibot (due to the clock issue) so we weren't going to win the race, but just getting the minibot up the pole would have won the match. That was the ONLY unsuccessful deploy we had all weekend (the minibot bounced off the pole) so all I could think about was what were we going to do to keep that from happening again. The clock issue was a bit of an afterthought at the time.

[TEE]

Originally Posted by Chris Hibner

In the original match in question, the clock malfunctioned with approximately 15-20 seconds to go in the match. It was not after the deployment period had begun.

Team 903 from the blue alliance was lined up with the tower waiting to deploy their minibot and did not deploy at the 10 second mark because they didn't know how much time was left and they didn't want to risk getting their tower disabled. They ended up deploying well after the start of the deployment period and lost the minibot race. I believe the red alliance won the original match by 5 points, so the minibot race affected the outcome of the match.

I was sitting in the stands and the referee question circle was right in front of me (about 6 feet away). Members from 903 stood in the circle after the match. No one from team 51 was present while I was in the stands. Just about the time the head referee came to talk to the 903 student representative, I left the stands so I guess it's possible that someone from 51 later showed up. At that time, 903 was ranked in the top 8 so a win was very important for them.

I didn't find out the match would be replayed until about an hour later.

To be honest, at the time I was more upset at us for losing that match so I didn't care about the the clock issue. We delayed significantly before deploying our minibot (due to the clock issue) so we weren't going to win the race, but just getting the minibot up the pole would have won the match. That was the ONLY unsuccessful deploy we had all weekend (the minibot bounced off the pole) so all I could think about was what were we going to do to keep that from happening again. The clock issue was a bit of an afterthought at the time.

Thanks for clearing this up for me!

When I asked the head ref, he said that a member of team 51 came to him, and that the clock malfunctioned with 4-8 seconds left, so the information I had was incorrect.

[Chris Hibner]

Originally Posted by TEE

Thanks for clearing this up for me!

When I asked the head ref, he said that a member of team 51 came to him, and that the clock malfunctioned with 4-8 seconds left, so the information I had was incorrect.

I remember the clock malfunction very vividly in that first match. We finished two logos with close to 30 seconds left in the match and the only way we could lose the match was to not get our minibot deployed, so the drivers stopped scoring with a lot of time left and raced to the pole so no one would try to block us. Our drivers were sitting at the pole with a lot of time left so I was watching the clock waiting for deploy time. Then all of the sudden the clock started displaying: "UUUU", "7777", "LLLL", "8888", and various other 4 digit nonsensical patterns. It looked like a power-up test sequence or something.

I'm not 100% sure what happened with 903, but I was told that they finally launched their minibot when the field announcer started counting the time down, which I think was at 5 seconds or something. So 903 was sitting there not knowing what to do, then they hear "Five! Four! Three! ..." and thought, "I guess we can deploy now" and let it go.

For replay matches, I'm not really sure what happened. I was too busy watching our robot to see make sure it was functioning properly.

[TEE]

Yeah... in the other matches, the clock kept malfunctioning, until they unplugged it and either replaced or repaired it for the last match...

Seems to me like the refs made the right call, and when I asked about it, the head ref just didn't relay the information accurately.

[MarcSol]

In the first video, the upward momentum of the deployment mechanism was minimal, non intentional, and inconsequential compared to the momentum the minibot provided itself. Yes, a referee could disable your tower on that (if his reaction time was quick enough) but only if he was really a hardnose.

The second video is definitely a violation of <G23> which specifically mentions game pieces touching the tower.

As for the third video, since the pinning robot never backed up 6 feet for at least 3 seconds, it is pinning. As for the contact between the pinned robot and the tower, <G61> prevents him from receiving a penalty for touching an opponents tower during the endgame.

Of course, it is easy to judge from the comfort of my chair with the ability to replay the video over and over and not having to be concerned about the actual outcome of the match and the competition. The referees do not have these luxuries.

- Marc