2011 Minnesota North Star Regional

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by Jedward45

3. I don't know why the red cards were assessed, and I don't know the specific rules on the situation in match #2. So I would like to know if anybody could clarify. That said, I feel the blue alliance did win match #3 fairly, so without a match #4, the red alliance cannot claim a stolen victory.

The 2 red cards in Finals match 2 were assessed to:

1) Team 2225 for contact with an opposing robot in the scoring zone <G32>
2) Team 2512 for coach touching the controls <G56>

[Lynsey93]

According to team 2512 the coach never touched the controls, he was just leaning over it to see why the connection was lost.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by Lynsey93

According to team 2512 the coach never touched the controls, he was just leaning over it to see why the connection was lost.

Ok, 2225 still earned a red card in that match so the result would have been the same.

[AlexGrant]

Hey great job everyone who went to North Star. I'm the driver from team 3042, we are the team that had the wings that fold down for defense. On behaff of my team I can say we all had a blast after our technical difficulties were worked out. A special thanks to the Robettes(2177) and Charger robotics (537) if they read this, without the students from your teams that helped us with our electronics issues, we would have probably missed more than one match throughout the weekend. And also a thanks to The Kuh-nig-its (1939) for helping us through the course of the weekend to get a working minibot up the pole, sorry that we were unable to make it up the pole for points (we did get it up once but only after we went a second early).

What is everyone's opinion on defense this weekend? I feel that defensive teams are underestimated every year so we tried to fill that niche this year.

[dna4engr]

Hi All,
OK I'll give this a second try. I had a nice long response written and then it didn't submit properly and I lost all I typed. I'll try to keep this one brief.

I am the lead mentor for team 2225. We are very grateful to team 2512 selecting us for their alliance. As was shown in the championship rounds 2 bots on offense with 1 on defense is a winning combination.

We have a very small team and have been beaten often and by the best in FRC regionals over the past 5 years. Don't mistake anything we say or do for being sore losers. Being beaten by a better team is easier to accept than being beaten due to human opinion or technical difficulty of the field. We've always licked our wounds and came back. Next year we will come back stronger, it's just these wounds are a little bit saltier than any we've had before.

We know the rules and abide by the judges decisions. I only ask that those of you on this forum but your self in the red alliances shoes and having won the second final match and getting excited about going to St. Louis, have that taken away.

Penalties and judges opinions are Human error and Human success. The averages never seem to work out for everyone but what can we do. Professional sports administers penalties and fouls the same way and we all hate it but we end up having to live with it. Technical accuracy in scoring is, on the other hand, something we can address. I don't foresee the results changing and am not asking that they do. I only ask that we as a FIRST community look at this and see if all of our expertise (there's a lot of engineers and scientists in this thing) can find a way to handle discrepancies (like team 2512 minibot hitting the scoring disc and not registering) with the technology at hand. We all know technology can fail or hiccup. These are easy things to administer. Especially when so much is on the line.

One last request I have for us all is to focus on making FIRST better rather than fight over who is right about the way today went. Lets effect change so that we won't be back here in 12 months talking about the same thing.

Thanks for reading.

[RMiller]

Originally Posted by Jedward45

2. With the #1 seed having 2 of its 3 teams pre-qualified for nationals, I feel a majority would be content with the results of the regional. (7 robots go to nationals rather than 5) In fact, I think this regional highlighted a fatal flaw in the tournament system that limits the number of opportunities for teams to experience nationals.

Two things: 1) Championships, not nationals.

2) I think the fact that "seven" robots have qualified for championships (I am unsure of how you get that number - three champions, one chairmans, one EI, and one Rookie All-Star) rather than five should be a completely moot point. I would hope none of the volunteers (and I doubt they would) would do anything to try to cause more teams to qualify for championships. First, it is just plain wrong. Second, one team from the #1 seed is not qualified for championships. Third, all of the teams lose a blue banner and the recognition that can come from that.
I don't think you were saying, "Someone was wrong. Oh well, I think the benefit was better than the other possibility."

[Jon Stratis]

First, to AlexGrant - I was the inspector you guys were working with there, and I have to tell you that working with your team there was a real joy. You were all open to the process and open to learning how to do things right. It was great watching you guys drive out on the field, and from hearing other teams talk, you guys were definitely noticed by a lot of teams as a great defensive robot. Keep working towards it, and with your attitude, you guys have a great future ahead of you.

Next, to our alliance members (3278, 2549) - You guys were awesome out there. After talking with our drive team, I really want to make sure you guys know what sort of affect you had on us. The amount of respect and team work both of you offered really meant a lot, and it's not something we always get. At some past events (I'm not going to list years/events), the drive team has come back (both from quals and elims) to tell us that their alliance members were condescending and refusing to listen to anything our team had to say - you guys were different. For once, the drive team truly felt like equals on the alliance, not like "that girls team".

To our competitors, I'll say this - you all gave us some great games. In the quarter finals, the semi finals, and the finals, it came out to three very rough games. You were all great competitors, and I can't wait to see you guys at Championship or next year.

And lastly, for this issue that's been raised about the last two matches... I agree with dna4engr about the minibot issue - The tower not triggering was a pretty big deal. I don't think any of us can say 100% sure why it didn't trigger - something wrong with the field, the minibot not hitting with the required force (as outlined in the rules), or the minibot simply hitting the tower at exactly the wrong point with respect to the sensors.

The question about "several should-be red cards on the blue alliance"... All I can say is I didn't see it - but I also didn't see a lot that happened on the field. We've all seen questionable calls in sporting events, and cases where calls should have happened but didn't. The refs only have so many eyes, and they can't look everywhere at once. For those that are really passionate about it, I would strongly encourage you to work on designing a cost-effective video review system that would allow the refs to review questionable calls on the field (maybe even give each alliance a "challenge" card during the elims). The problem with such a system is the number and angles of views that would be needed to provide coverage of the field and properly show penalties refs have missed, or penalties that were called incorrectly. This would be an excellent engineering challenge for anyone to tackle, and I'm sure a lot could be learned by anyone attempting to tackle it.

Our team had a great time this week, and the end was very emotional for all of us. It's our first time qualifying for Championship, and it's amazing to see how far the team has come over the past 5 years - both technically and team structure/ student leadership. It's gotten to the point where myself and another mentor on the team have the opportunity to expand out to volunteer at the events, while knowing that the team can handle any problems that come up.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by eagle33199

Our team had a great time this week, and the end was very emotional for all of us. It's our first time qualifying for Championship, and it's amazing to see how far the team has come over the past 5 years - both technically and team structure/ student leadership. It's gotten to the point where myself and another mentor on the team have the opportunity to expand out to volunteer at the events, while knowing that the team can handle any problems that come up.

It's fantastic to see the Robettes qualify for Championships and finally pick up a Blue Banner. I've said it in other places, but in my opinion you have been the best Minnesota team over the past few years and have come up just short an agonizing number of times. The Robettes are a great team and I'll definitely be trying to stop by in Saint Louis.

[Blackphantom91]

I totally agree with what you have said dna4engr It should be about bettering each other and first in general. To everyone who competed in north star the competition was great to watch. The refs are human just like all of us just continue to keep your heads up, you all are great! I feel that no one should leave a FIRST event sad because you all have accomplished something that is impressive with in its own, You took parts and ideas and put it into motion and created a robot and now that is an achievement because the things you learned while doing it. Great competition teams!

[miriad]

As far as the minibot / tower problems, there are 4 bolts hanging out the bottom of the sensor which are firmly attached to the top plate of the tower, so hitting them wont trigger the plate. These are in the field drawings (Page 37, 38, and 69, the bottom-left drawing on page 37 is upside-down, the collar should be on top), and a reminder was sent out in TU18 that these bolts will not trigger the sensor. Also discussed to great length in this thread: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=93650

The bolts themselves have a pretty significant weight, if they were attached to the bottom plate (and thus would trigger the sensor), the mass of the bolts and plate would take much more force to move (probably double, maybe more)

A number of teams who had problems with the bolts came up with some pretty innovative solutions, including one I saw today at North Star which added a piece of surgical tubing to the top, inside of the bolt radius, that would trigger the sensor and then collapse, so their switch would still turn the bot off, even through their switch (The original point of contact) may hit a bolt.

[Alpha Beta]

Congratulations to Team Driven (1730). You’ve had a Chairman’s worthy portfolio for years and it was wonderful to see your dedication to spreading the message of FIRST and STEM recognized in Minnesota.

Special congrats to Clint Ott and his Dean’s List Finalist Award. Your gracious nature has made it easier for two schools who traditionally fight each other as athletic rivals to work together to promote FIRST in our community.

Four teams from the GKC Regional made the trip to North Star, and all came back with some hardware for the trophy case. You’ve represented yourselves and our home area very well. I couldn’t be more proud of what you all have accomplished.

1939 – Imagery Award
2164 – Quality Award
1764 – Industrial Safety Award and Engineering Inspiration
1730 – Engineering Excellence Award, Excellence in Design Award, FIRST Dean’s List Finalist Award, Regional Finalist, and Regional Chairman’s Award

We were at North Star last year, and I remember all of the wonderful friends we made. It was a pleasure watching everyone compete again on the webcast.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by ajbergal

what we do care about is FRC's lack of responsibility not just at this regional but throughout the entire competition this year. with many field scoring problems and a lot resting on the shoulders of the refs. there are some HUGE FLAWS this year that frc seems to be blatantly avoiding: robot communication being lost, inconsistent rulings of penalties and red cards, and i think the biggest of them all, the mini-bot scoring system. as for the last couple of finals matches we thought they took the easy way out and didn't re-play the matches, they did it at our first regional, why not here? when there is that much riding on a single match there should be no uncertainty with anything and the refs should take there job seriously. i think if any other team that would have been in our shoes would have challenged the matches. we felt the matches we being played more like battle bots and not like a civilized and professional FRC match.

I can tell you the second match results, the decision not to replay did not come from the regional - a call was placed to FIRST headquarters, and the result was "a red card DQ means that alliance lost the match". Being able to see all the field management system and all the information it has available, I find it hard to believe there were robot communication issues that they were not aware of. The FMS gives them very easy to read information about the comms and battery voltage... It even goes so far as to display the number of dropped packets between each robot!

For this comment about battle bots... I suggest you re-read section 3.1.9 - Robot-Robot Interaction. There are no rules against playing a physical game, so long as contact remains in the bumper zone and no attempt is made to damage robots. While I may not be impartial, everything I saw on the field those last few games was simply a very defensive match which included some hard hits - that's to be expected. There is nothing in the rules this year like G37 form 2008 (Overdrive):

a. High speed accidental collisions are likely to occur during the MATCH, and are an expected part of the game. However, high-speed intentional ramming is not acceptable and will be penalized.

There is no rule about that this year. It's expected that there will be physical games... and at times our team had to handle someone playing a physical defense against us.

[mott]

After 7 hours of deep breaths and reflection on Saturday's events during our drive home last night, I wanted to post a few thoughts after reading everyone's comments.

First, thanks to everyone responsible for the execution of the North Star event for putting on a great weekend. We had a great time.

Thanks also to everyone who stopped to talk to us, look at our machine, offer us congratulations on our performance throughout the weekend.

Congrats to the winning alliance of 2177, 2549 and 3278! Advancing to the Finals and ultimately becoming Champions as the #7 Seed is impressive and highlights both the importance of scouting and strategic alliance selection as well as reminding all of us that 8 alliances participate in the Elimination Round and ANY one of them has the capability of taking home the Blue Banner!

As for my assessment of the Finals round matches:

• The Red Cards issued to the Red Alliance in Match 2 were not something I personally witnessed BUT they very well may have been legitimate. As has been mentioned, there is no way 1 person in live, real-time action can see everything happening on the field and in the Alliance Stations. I'm guessing we'll be able to see (at least) the on-field violation when we review the video footage. The real problem I had with this match was the officials posting a Match Score and THEN "retracting" it to announce the Red Cards and DQs.

• The lack of a G48-C (ALLIANCE ROBOTS may not work together to blockade the FIELD in an attempt to stop the flow of the MATCH.) call in the final match against the Blue Alliance was surprising to me. Having now been on both sides of this specific ruling (or non-ruling) in elimination round play, the match where this call was made against our opposition in the Kansas City Regional semi-finals seemed to be a FAR LESS egregious violation than the events in Match 3 of the Finals yesterday. Again, I understand that 1 person can never see everything that is happening on the field during a match BUT there are a minimum of 3 officials specifically charged with watching the area of the field where this action was happening. In addition, the length of time the action went on made it apparent this was a "strategy" being employed and not just a random instance of 2 Blue Alliance members momentarily defending the Red scoring zone at the same time.

• Finally, the ONLY thing that really bothers me (don't mistake the lengthy recap above for things that bother me because those items are truly just reflections on the event) was the failure of the Officials to recognize Team 2512's minibot score in Match 3. Through 5 weeks of Regional competitions, officials have been manually recognizing minibot scoring time after time (even setting finishing orders in near "photo-finish" matches) but in this particular instance, with the event Championship at stake, no such recognition was made. In a match decided by only 3 points, recognition of this minibot, even if only for the 3rd place finish (2 minibots were officially recognized due to successful target triggering), would have changed the outcome of the match.

Now, Team Driven will get to work rebuilding parts for our significantly damaged machine and we'll show up in St. Louis ready for some more LogoMotion action...hopefully, with and/or against some of our new friends from the North Star Regional!

[Lynsey93]

These are my thoughts:
-One red card in match 2 was legit, one was not. Only one red is not a DQ, so that match would have just been a 0-0 tie. And yes, retracting the score was cruel.

-The minibot in match 3 clearly hit the pole, and judges refused p look at video proof.

-During end game of match 3 there was a blue robot sitting against the red pole for the entire duration, in an attempt to block it. This should have been a redcard. And, again, there were many recordings.

They should have at least replayed the match, rather than just giving the win when there was so much discrepancy. Or send the red alliance to nationals too. I don't know, but there had to have been a better solution and that's why everyone is frustrated. And I also know that team 2512 lost communication halfway through match 2 and was not able to regain it.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Lynsey93

-The minibot in match 3 clearly hit the pole, and judges refused p look at video proof.

Judges have nothing to do with this. I'm not surprised they refused to look at videos proof. If you ment refs, the rules state that replay or video will not be looked at. They made the right decision.

Also, the rules state (and backed up by one of the most recent team updates), that the minibot race is who can trigger the tower first, not get to the top of the tower. A team update said that only minibots that trigger the tower will be counted.

In this situation, the refs made all the correct calls.

EDIT: Also only 1 red card IS a DQ.