2011 Minnesota North Star Regional

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by Lynsey93

These are my thoughts:
-One red card in match 2 was legit, one was not. Only one red is not a DQ, so that match would have just been a 0-0 tie. And yes, retracting the score was cruel.

This is completely wrong and really undermines your credibility regarding rules matters.

-The minibot in match 3 clearly hit the pole, and judges refused p look at video proof.

The rules have always stated that a target must be TRIGGERED to score with the appropriate definition in the Introduction section. FIRST has further clarified through Team Updates how the sensor system works. There are a number of reasons why a minibot may not trigger a tower, bu the Refs made the right call according to the rules and are not allowed to review video evidence.

During end game of match 3 there was a blue robot sitting against the red pole for the entire duration, in an attempt to block it. This should have been a redcard. And, again, there were many recordings.

I have been told that the ref closest to that tower was paying careful attention to 3278 and determined they were not touching the tower.

They should have at least replayed the match, rather than just giving the win when there was so much discrepancy. Or send the red alliance to nationals too. I don't know, but there had to have been a better solution and that's why everyone is frustrated. And I also know that team 2512 lost communication halfway through match 2 and was not able to regain it.

There are no grounds in the rules to replay that match unless a field fault could be identified. There are a whole ton of reasons a robot may lose connection to the field that don't involve a field fault.

[Lynsey93]

Yeah I meant refs.

They said the DQ was for having two redcards. I guess I was wrong in that regard, my bad.

It isn't the team's fault if there was a technical error with the pole, they should acknowledge that since many people saw it happen.

And there was still the blue bot on the red pole that was ignored.

[Alex.q]

This is a little off subject, but what ever happened to rule G61?

<G61> The actions of an ALLIANCE shall not cause an opposing ALLIANCE to violate a rule and thus incur PENALTIES. Any rule violations committed by the affected ALLIANCE shall be excused, and no PENALTIES will be assigned.

At both the regionals my team went to, the refs always assigned penalties to teams that were pushed into an opposing alliance's zone, even though the robot left immediately after the opposing robot allowed them to.

[Lynsey93]

I noticed that too.

[Vikesrock]

<G32> and <G33> both state that <G61> does not apply to them.

[RMiller]

Originally Posted by Jedward45

1. As we all know, the decision of the refs are final. Still, the behavior exhibited by the losing alliance, while understandable, was unprofessional and not in the spirit of First. After seeing the pointless arguing that occurred, I don't disagree with the ref's decision to stand firm with his decision.

I don't know what was said by the losing alliance to the head ref and therefore cannot comment on if things were said that should not have been. Emotions had to be running high over the course of thirty minutes for all teams involved. The other point to make is that 1730 had no part in the discussion with the head ref to my knowledge. So, even if you know things were said that should not have been, please don't drag the entire alliance through the proverbial mud. Team 1730 made some statements on this thread. I thought they were reasonable, but you can judge for yourself. Better yet, talk to them and get to know them.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Lynsey93

It isn't the team's fault if there was a technical error with the pole, they should acknowledge that since many people saw it happen.

You would be very hard pressed to prove there was a technical error with the pole. As the rules state in section 2.2.5 The Towers,

A minimum contact force of approximately 2-4 Newtons, depending on contact location, is required to ensure the contact sensors in the TARGET trip reliably.

Depending on the design of the minibot, it's possible it didn't hit with 4 Newtons of force. If, for example, such a minibot hits with 3N, it would probably trigger most of the time, but not all. Throughout the entire elimination matches that afternoon, that tower worked every time it was used - as far as I could tell, there was no history that would make that tower suspect.

[Lynsey93]

Their mini bot actually hit so hard that it broke.

[Blackphantom91]

Originally Posted by RMiller

I don't know what was said by the losing alliance to the head ref and therefore cannot comment on if things were said that should not have been. Emotions had to be running high over the course of thirty minutes for all teams involved. The other point to make is that 1730 had no part in the discussion with the head ref to my knowledge. So, even if you know things were said that should not have been, please don't drag the entire alliance through the proverbial mud. Team 1730 made some statements on this thread. I thought they were reasonable, but you can judge for yourself. Better yet, talk to them and get to know them.

Lol I know the very well. and I agree with you we shouldn't jump to conclusion to what was said to the refs.

[RMiller]

Originally Posted by eagle33199

Throughout the entire elimination matches that afternoon, that tower worked every time it was used - as far as I could tell, there was no history that would make that tower suspect.

Originally Posted by Lynsey93

Their mini bot actually hit so hard that it broke.

As far as I know, over the course of the entire competition, only one team had difficulty triggering the tower (until the last match) when they were reaching the top of the tower. However, they had a design flaw that caused it to hit the bolts holding the bottom plate on occasion.
I do not know what caused the tower not to trigger (maybe a video will see it, though I doubt the webstream video will see it with enough resolution, but maybe I will be surprised), but as per team update 18, the refs are not to overrule the results.
You can see the discussion on here regarding team update 18 to see there has been worry about something like this happening (particularly on Einstein).
*Edit: Let me just state that it absolutely sucks that this happened in the eliminations and particularly in the third match of the finals.

As to why it broke, there are lots of possibilities. It could have hit a bolt (with no give), fall damage, damage over time, etc.

[Lynsey93]

The refs said bolts too but they held the mini bot up and it was impossible.

I dont know what happened either, and it does really suck. It's just the fact that it was the deciding match that I feel there had to have been something that could have been done. Especially when refs were manually scoring minibus at other matches.

It's over now. I'm just trying to get a sense of what happened and what other people saw happen.

[Jedward45]

Originally Posted by RMiller

I don't know what was said by the losing alliance to the head ref and therefore cannot comment on if things were said that should not have been. Emotions had to be running high over the course of thirty minutes for all teams involved. The other point to make is that 1730 had no part in the discussion with the head ref to my knowledge. So, even if you know things were said that should not have been, please don't drag the entire alliance through the proverbial mud. Team 1730 made some statements on this thread. I thought they were reasonable, but you can judge for yourself. Better yet, talk to them and get to know them.

I didn't mean to target any one team (and I apologize, I wasn't referring to 1730, who I thought was professional given the circumstances), but when any team that is A.already a match ahead B.statistically more likely to win match 3 and C.Already qualifying for the championship, I feel arguing only appears unprofessional.

[RMiller]

Originally Posted by Lynsey93

Especially when refs were manually scoring minibus at other matches.

Can you explain? Are you meaning other regionals? If so, which regionals? This regional?

I was not aware of a single manual minibot scoring for North Star.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by RMiller

Can you explain? Are you meaning other regionals? If so, which regionals? This regional?

I was not aware of a single manual minibot scoring for North Star.

I believe the reference is to past regionals. As was stated in Team update 18:

During the Week 1 competitions, we learned that we had erratic sensitivity issues with the sensors in the TOWER TARGETS, so, we reverted to manual scoring of the race. After Week 1, the sensitivity issue was examined and a change to the sensing method was implemented. Week 2 results indicated that this change was successful. The TARGET still looks and functions the same to the MINIBOTS, with the only change being the sensing methods between the plates. No changes were made to the physical aspects of the TARGET which are interacted with by the MINIBOTS. So moving forward, we will be relying on the automated scoring of the MINIBOT RACE.

Yes, weeks 1 and 2 the refs had the ability to manually score minibots if the tower didn't trigger. That simply isn't the case anymore.

[jsmyth]

Regarding the "mini bot" situation there was a rule added saying that if the tower fail to trigger it was because your mini bot hit a bolt keeping the plastic circle from raising And if this happens you do not qualify for the points gained.(i know this because we also failed to get points once and the judges explain the rule to us)