Are all girl FIRST team counterproductive to the philosophy of FIRST?

[MariaCastro]

Being female is not a handicap, The STEM Field has been predominantly men since the BC times. There has been a sub-conscience belief in society that the man has an advantage in these fields. (Archimedes, Galileo,Newton, Einstein are just example of how long men have dominated in STEM) It is extremely difficult to change society and to fully accept females into STEM within only 50 years.

Even though Many teams in FIRST have females on there teams, not all are engaged with the robots, There ARE females in leadership positions and major roles, but as an overall males are still dominant.

All female teams are just a bridges that facilitates a females entry into the world of STEM. This is just a stepping stone for some. One our team we have an All Girls Underwater Robotics Team named LEGIT (Leading and Empowering Girls Into Technology). Some females may feel insecure directly going into the main team that has some male leaders. (our FIRST team has a majority of females). Having the all girls teams has allowed us to recruit more females and has enabled them to work side by side with the more experienced members of our team.

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by (paraphrasing)

Where are all the female rock stars?

Give a smart female the ego of a male counterpart and I think you'll find the rock star in FRC. I only say this because the very poignant female leader of my team pointed this out as something for me personally to improve so I don't intimidate any potential upcoming female engineers who show interest in joining our team. The process of working on my ego in that context has led me to believe that until a specific behavior is directly called out, I seriously doubt that any male (especially an adolescent) can empathize with females that have those types of hurdles to overcome. Ergo, I believe we need to celebrate the all-female teams as much, if not more than, co-ed or all-male teams.

After having done some of our own all-female research with FLL and [FVC] teams, we came to some conclusions which I'll adapt to the current metaphor. They weren't "rock stars" simply because none of them wanted to be rock stars. They wanted to succeed and it seemed to be an intrinsic quality they were after more than the competitive edge. However, there is another team, Einstein's Daughters (all-girl FTC team), who I would say are famous (in FTC) due to their consistency with success in a competitive environment. Perhaps someone could contact them to get their input?

[ghandler94]

I go to an all-girls school and hate that aspect of it. Personally, it doesn't work for me. It is not anything like the real-world and there is an obvious lack of balance in the classroom.

I am on an all-girls rookie team because it is the only team I am eligible to join. It came as a shock how much I appreciate the inspiration it has given me. The extreme lack of women in STEM careers is astounding and from visiting FIRST teams with one or two girls and seeing how ostracized they are, I've really grown an appreciation. I'm fairly assertive and would not let anyone, boy or girl, have a demeaning effect on me. But, it's still been a really awesome experience to have!

[Katie_UPS]

Originally Posted by Molten

As far as the reason your team is ignored: I thought back to when I was a student on 1766 and alot of teams are so focused on their own team that they tend to ignore whats going on around them. I'd estimate that this makes up some fraction of the reason people aren't paying attention to your team. I would not estimate it to be the only reason. Just part of it. Thats the thing, there are too many variables to something like this. Can you really tell me that the only reason people are ignoring you is due to your team gender? I have no doubt that it isn't the reason for some teams. I just suggest we don't paint with such a big brush. Some of those teams ignore you for other reasons and don't deserve to be assumed to be sexist. Inconsiderate, yes but please don't assume intentions unless the person tells you or there has been a strong trend with that individual person.

I get that you dislike the "oh, I'm a girl, people don't listen". I do too. I want to rise above it, not complain about it. But you're coming off as if to say that it is us (girls) overreacting... but lets be honest. It DOES happen. In actually strategy meetings, team's aren't THAT absorbed in themselves. In the lab, she didn't just happen to be ignored. Sure, we shouldn't assume... but we are just as capable as you are to drawing logical conclusions.

[pdepra]

The mission of FIRST is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders... As long as any team does that, how can it be counterproductive?

I think that if there are young women out there who are inspired by being on "all-girls" team, and they would not have joined a co-ed team, then YAY!!

[prettycolors91]

I suppose that I will add my bit about females and FIRST as well.

I began my experience with FLL in middle school, working on a co-ed team with both female and male mentors. We were all encouraged to work on all parts of the team, and for a time I worked in "programming" (well, it felt like programming to a seventh grader). Personally, I took to the research portion of the team. Working on Mission: Mars provided a unique opportunity to hone scientific research skills as well as presentation/communication abilities.

I moved onto the HOT team, and was there for my entire high school career. I moved on to become the Scouting Captain, and worked heavily in the Chairman's subgroup. As a female, I have caught some flack from other female students to "defaulting" to these positions, and falling into female "stereotypes". I find it unfortunate that these aspects of the team are regarded as easier, or below the harder engineering roles. FIRST has taught me that there are many aspects to a successful team of people. You can have a fantastic robot, but without proper scouting and communication skills, it's very difficult succeed (especially in Michigan).

I'm currently and Environmental Science major at Michigan Technological University. If any of you know of MTU, you'll know that to begin with, the ratio of males to females is currently about 3:1. This gap widens once you move into the harder STEM fields of the university. Being in FIRST gave me the ability to look at people's abilities, rather than their gender. I have also found that being confident in your abilities can go a long way in terms of respect. If you approach a group situation comfortable with what you can do, then you'll have a much different experience than if you go in doubting yourself. FIRST teaches girls that they ARE smart and that they CAN do these things.

I'm taking over the Robotic Systems Enterprise next academic year, as one of the few girls in the group. We run three FRC teams in the area (857, 2586, 3771), a few FLL teams, support a SailBOT collegiate level team, and hope to be involved in the FIRST collegiate pilot program next year. FIRST gave me the leadership experience needed to take over a position like this, and I am SO grateful to the program for that.

As a result of my experience in FIRST and the Robotic Systems Enterprise, I've been offered an internship from General Motors this summer. I'll be working on reducing the environmental impact of my assigned plant. STEM careers emerge in all sorts of places...

In closing, I guess it doesn't matter if there are exclusive teams or not. As long as students are all given an opportunity in an area to participate, then an all girls or all boys team can sometimes be the best solution for an individual.

[erobo2520]

The mission of FIRST is so inspire in students a desire to pursue science and technology. Are girls on co-ed teams inspired? yes, if they can stick around. It is really hard to get both the mentors and the other students to over look the steriotypes our society instills in people. For some reason people are hardwired to protect girls and women, and handing one a jig saw does not come naturally to male mentors especially if they have daughters. So do all girl teams inspire female students better? Probably, but it also does not prepare them for the starck reality that is sexism in science and technology. All girl teams are not counterproductive to the mission of FIRST but it does not allow girls to develop the thicker skin they will need if they want to pursue a career in science and technology.

[karomata]

I feel that the push to get women into STEM is a great cause, however the methodology being used is wrong.

By excluding males from teams or team activities, you are only creating a split within the entirety of the team. While it is great to get women involved in STEM, pushing out the guys is not fair nor gracious professional.

Another issue I personally have faced, being a high school senior this year and applying for WPI FIRST scholarships, I have found that they are female preferred. As a 9 year FIRST student who has put much time and effort into contributing to FIRST, learning about science and technology, and embodying the values of gracious professionalism, it really grinds my gears at times to know that I am disadvantaged because of who I am.

We as FIRST participants often speak of rising above the opponent instead of dragging them down, however in a competative setting for scholarships, isn't having a bias towards women dragging down the guys in FIRST? Is it gracious and professional to distribute these scholarships with a preferance?

I'm not saying I only got into FIRST for the scholarships, but for how often FIRST speakers talk about having 16+ million dollars in scholarships, I don't think it reflects well on FIRST that some of these scholarships are bias. FIRST preaches gracious professionalism, a belief in the FIRST culture that has allowed all of us to thrive, but I believe these preferences on the scholarships to not embody the FIRST spirit. Even if the colleges are determining the criteria, as FIRST students we are entering a world where not everyone is always gracious and professional, and at times having some influence from a higher power (FIRST) even the odds would be very helpful.

[Jon Stratis]

For those who don't want to read 14 pages of a several year-old thread, the general consensus isn't that we should form all-girls teams by excluding boys... but rather that there is room for all-girls teams in appropriate situations. If the team comes from a girl scout troop, they aren't excluding boys to have it. If they come from an all-girls school, they aren't excluding boys to have it. If their school has two teams, one of which is all-girls, then they aren't excluding boys to have it.

So when you hear about an all-girls team or talk about it, please don't think it's about exclusion. I have yet to hear about a single instance where an all-girls FRC team was formed by excluding otherwise available boys.

A side note from my team... Yesterday we did a presentation at another local high school to help their team. At the end of it, we had recruited 2 new female students for them. That's just a small example of how an all-girls team can help other FIRST teams!

karomata - Your experience with scholarships is unfortunate, but it's not something FIRST can solve. Colleges try to create a balanced class, since including even numbers of males and females, and including minorities is perceived as a "good thing" (whether it is or not is a whole other topic for another thread). Unfortunately, that means that some under-represented portions of our society need extra encouragement to enter certain fields. Going to school, majoring in engineering, and looking around at your lecture hall of 100 students only to see 2 girls (true story!) is pretty discouraging, and something colleges are trying to change through targeted recruitment and, unfortunately, preferential scholarships. I'm sorry to say, but it's something everyone has to get used to, as our society has decided that diversity needs to be encouraged. If you look at the group I work in, out of 4 people (including me) on my current project, one is female, two are Indian, one is Chinese, and then there's me, a white male. If there wasn't a push in our society for diversity in the workplace (and in colleges), how diverse do you think this group really would be? (Please don't take this as dismissing any of my coworkers, they're all great at what they do and I wouldn't trade them for anyone)

[Kims Robot]

Originally Posted by karomata

We as FIRST participants often speak of rising above the opponent instead of dragging them down, however in a competative setting for scholarships, isn't having a bias towards women dragging down the guys in FIRST? Is it gracious and professional to distribute these scholarships with a preferance?

I'm not saying I only got into FIRST for the scholarships, but for how often FIRST speakers talk about having 16+ million dollars in scholarships, I don't think it reflects well on FIRST that some of these scholarships are bias. FIRST preaches gracious professionalism, a belief in the FIRST culture that has allowed all of us to thrive, but I believe these preferences on the scholarships to not embody the FIRST spirit. Even if the colleges are determining the criteria, as FIRST students we are entering a world where not everyone is always gracious and professional, and at times having some influence from a higher power (FIRST) even the odds would be very helpful.

EVERY scholarship has some sort of bias... Are people whining that the ASME scholarship is only for mechanical engineers? Are people whining about the fact that WPI is only providing scholarships to kids that want to go to WPI? Are people whining that Penn State's scholarship only goes to those in Engineering, not business or nursing?? Or how about the Society of Women Engineers, are you upset that their scholarship only goes to women?

As an FRC High School senior, you have the option of over 158 scholarships conveniently located on a single page with details, information, and application links laid out for you. Other students at your school do NOT have that option... are they complaining that they can't get those 158 scholarships because they didn't join the FIRST team? I get that many of these things are things you can "choose" - you can "choose" your major, you can "choose" to join an FRC team or not, but you cannot choose your gender.

However, use your own "rise above" statement and rise above these challenges. Have you applied for every single one of those 158 scholarships that you are eligible for? Have you scoured the internet looking for other scholarship opportunities, read up on how to write a killer essay, used spell check 3x over, practiced college interviews with college graduates, reviewed your applications with your guidance counselors and teachers?

Only 6 of the 158 indicate a "preference for women", however only ONE is exclusive to women, and it is NOT the WPI scholarship. Make your resume and your essay and your interview far more attractive than any of the female candidates offered, and you still stand a shot at getting that scholarship. You are not excluded from it. When you have done absolutely everything you can to "rise above" your "disadvantage", then lets talk.

Welcome to the real world where you have to work for it, it won't be handed to you. Don't use the word "preference" to justify your lack of trying.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by karomata

By excluding males from teams or team activities, you are only creating a split within the entirety of the team. While it is great to get women involved in STEM, pushing out the guys is not fair nor gracious professional.

It must feel pretty unfair to be excluded from something based on your gender. It would certainly be really painful if that happened to you on a systemic and regular basis, throughout your attempted career in a STEM field. That's what happens to women in STEM all the time and continuously. A common term used to discuss this phenomena specifically in academia is the "leaky pipeline", where systemic discrimination against women gradually and continuously pushes them away from advancement.

This happens on FIRST teams as well, all the time. It's rarely the product of someone actively deciding that women shouldn't be doing STEM work. It's in the little decisions and actions of team members and leaders. Gradual and subtle (or not-so-subtle) nudges away from mechanical and software into communications are far too common. A mentor grabs a handful of freshmen that they pick at random to build a prototype; the coding team works together to recruit a few new programmers; the CAD team leads find "buddies" for teaching. All of these examples are simple opportunities for women to be subconsciously excluded or shunned by not being selected into a program.

On many teams, confident and headstrong women fight for their position as a mechanical leader, drive coach, or software captain. Yet, the women who join the team whom are curious about (but not totally sold on) a STEM career - the people FIRST teams should do everything to inspire - are going to have a harder time breaking into these groups. Lots of people on teams join and show up with neither the requisite skill set nor the understanding of where to go to learn. In these situations, it's harder for women to break into a new job or role, especially when they're surrounded by a dozen of their male peers with more understanding and experience. It's certainly intimidating.

Another issue I personally have faced, being a high school senior this year and applying for WPI FIRST scholarships, I have found that they are female preferred. As a 9 year FIRST student who has put much time and effort into contributing to FIRST, learning about science and technology, and embodying the values of gracious professionalism, it really grinds my gears at times to know that I am disadvantaged because of who I am.

A recent study that I will find and link to after my classes indicated that 97% of scholarships do not prohibit white male applicants (the study was also addressing similar objections to race based affirmative action scholarships, but the point stands as "white male" is a subset of "male). You're complaining about a tiny minority of scholarships that aim to help counteract the many barriers to entry that disadvantaged minority groups face in their attempts at STEM careers.

While few to no scholarships actively state that women are less likely to receive them, in practice that's what has happened, especially in STEM. Not to mention all of the accumulating discrimination and social pressure from before and after this point in their careers. Do those people not get to be upset for being disadvantaged because of who they are? In what ways can we counteract and mitigate this disadvantage without producing opportunities that apply to the disadvantaged groups?

We as FIRST participants often speak of rising above the opponent instead of dragging them down, however in a competative setting for scholarships, isn't having a bias towards women dragging down the guys in FIRST?

Not at all, not even slightly. Listen to yourself. You're saying that not giving men eligibility for 100% of the available free college money is "dragging them down". Giving scholarships to women sounds exactly like bringing the bottom up / rising above circumstance to me.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by karomata

By excluding males from teams or team activities, you are only creating a split within the entirety of the team. While it is great to get women involved in STEM, pushing out the guys is not fair nor gracious professional.

Do you have any examples of this happening? As far as I know, all of the all-female teams in FIRST are sponsored by all-female organizations, like the Girl Scouts or all-female schools, that aren't open to boys in the first place.

[davidthefat]

I think having a "gender" quota is more counter intuitive than having an all female or male team.

[Dancin103]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

Team 2340 tried to have all female mentors to work along their all girls team but I don't think they were quite able to have it be exclusive to just females.
If a dad has skills in the shop and offers to help a team would be crazy to turn down assistance from someone who wants to help no matter what their gender is.

I'm not really sure what to think of this thread, but I have a few things to say (I think they're relevant, but if they are not please do let me know). Why does it matter who (students and mentors) comprise a team. Yes, if a team is denying letting a certain student in for being male or female that is discriminatory. If a team is all male, all female, or split down the middle, what does it matter. If they are successful what does it matter? Success can be measured in many different ways whether success is completing the robot or winning the competition, if a team is successful, why does it matter who comprises the team? (Yes it is great to have a team in which half is female and half is male, because let's face it the STEM world is primarily male dominated, and females in the field are rare to come across so getting them involved is FANTASTIC!) A team is a team and functions as one, if the team is all girls that's great, if it's all guys that's great too, and if it's a mix of many diverse students that's great as well. In my opinion, the things that matter are a.) were the teams end goals met and b.) did everyone have fun?

This is just my $0.02. Feel free to comment as necessary.

Cass

[Phcullen]

thank you for your thoughts i am glad most of you are taking this maturely and putting though into everything that you are saying.

again i would like to state that i do not include teams based out of already exclusive groups like schools and scouts.

though my years on my team i have worked with and developed close relationships with people that i probably would have never met without FIRST mentors and students we were always equal maybe things are different on other teams but i never saw women being discouraged from doing anything on our team and were always clearly just as capable as anyone (if not more as in many cases). it would certainly be nice to see more women mentors. but there really are not many out there and that is because historically that is not seen to be a womans profession and first is there to change that by exposing students to these fields because things certainly feel more tangible when you see peers doing them.
FIRST's goal, as it has been explained to me, is not to make everyone who joins become an engineer or whatever but to expose as many people who would not be exposed otherwise as possible to the field. and with that in mind it is certainly important to get girls involved but when groups will only fund/support a team that is "girls only" then you are placing that one demographic at a higher importance. and that is where i see these teams conflicting with FIRST's philosophy. why are all girl teams seen as more impressive when they exclude men from joining? wouldn't it me more impressive to have a strong female population on a co-ed team, showing that they have encouraged others that statistically are less likely to have tried it out? why is it when they announce all girl teams at competition they announce them as all girl teams just as they announce a team from a school for the deft like they had to over come a challenge just because they are girls? the formation of all girl teams seem to be more for political reasons then for the benefit of the members of the team