Alliance Selection Rules

[Chris is me]

Team 2791 was at the CT Regional this weekend, and coming into Saturday we were in a picking position. We decided to use an iPad as a scouting aide in order to make our list and consolidate notes on teams in something compact and readable. I'd seen this done on a webcast and thought it was a really novel idea.

Late Saturday morning, it was announced that "electronic devices are strictly prohibited during alliance selection". Our team calmly went to the Pit Admin table to talk to someone about this. After pointing out that several regionals had allowed exactly what we were doing before and showing in the rules that there was no prohibition on cell phones or anything of the sort for alliance selection we were told "Well, they don't specifically allow it either so we can make the rules however we want.". Disappointed, we copied our list onto paper and proceeded to miss eliminations anyway.

We were told the intent of the rule is that only the alliance captain can be making the picks, with no outside information. Yet I've seen this happen time and time again with text messages, whiteboards, even shouting from the stands. We've done it before and no one minds. I've seen teams like 1114 use whiteboards. I honestly thought it was common practice.

So:
1. Does this rule exist?
2. Is this a rule decided event by event?

[GaryVoshol]

The GDC specifically allowed it: http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=17137

[Nuttyman54]

Incidences like this occurred at DC this year (we were informed on Saturday morning) and on Archimedes last year (we were informed 5 minutes before alliance selections. We were allowed to use whiteboard in DC, but not on Archimedes last year.

We inquired like you did at DC, but received the same answer that since it wasn't in the rule book, the Head Ref had the right to make the call. Before Archimedes I had never seen or heard of any instances where this was the case. I think that FIRST needs to make a clear ruling in the actual game manual so that it is fair and consistent between events.

Some teams have elaborate electronic scouting setups like your iPad, which allow their scouts to quickly re-sort and re-arrange their list based on the changing needs of the alliance, which is not possible through paper means. Teams who have spent time on such a system have the right to know long before the event if they will be allowed to use it, or if their time is better spent making sure their on-field scout has everything they need on paper.

[TEE]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

The GDC specifically allowed it: http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=17137

"There are no rules that prohibit laptops or team collaboration during the alliance selection process. These methods are permitted, however the team is expected to make quick and expeditious decisions in the interest of keeping the process moving."

Looks like they were wrong

[Koko Ed]

I've always kept it to one student on the field and about the only thing I figured wasn't allowed was a cell phone.

[BrendanB]

I wish FIRST would come up with a message to head refs on what is allowed and not allowed. It seems every event has different policies which makes it unfair when the head ref makes a call that the GDC allows.

It just doesn't make sense when this happens. IF whiteboards are allowed I don't see why phones make any difference since they both are providing a number. I have seen so many teams take forever to make a decision when going through their paper data whereas it seems that they think texting prolongs the process.

[XaulZan11]

I find the lack of consistency frustrating. At Wisconsin our representative asked before alliance selections if he could recieve/send texts on his cell phone and said he could. When it was time to make our second selection, he was told to put the phone away by the MC (not sure what grounds he has to make that decision). At Midwest the represenatives were told they couldn't use phones right before alliance selection; thankfully we planned ahead this time.

If they are concerned that cell phones, laptops, Ipads will cause too much of a delay, how about giving teams 5 minutes to make their selection? If they don't make the selection in time, they are given the highest ranked team.

With whiteboards, teams shouting, hand signals, its just too hard to deny teams communication.

[Tyler Olds]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

I find the lack of consistency frustrating. At Wisconsin our representative asked before alliance selections if he could recieve/send texts on his cell phone and said he could. When it was time to make our second selection, he was told to put the phone away by the MC (not sure what grounds he has to make that decision). At Midwest the represenatives were told they couldn't use phones right before alliance selection; thankfully we planned ahead this time.

If they are concerned that cell phones, laptops, Ipads will cause too much of a delay, how about giving teams 5 minutes to make their selection? If they don't make the selection in time, they are given the highest ranked team.

With whiteboards, teams shouting, hand signals, its just too hard to deny teams communication.

<soapbox>
John,

When a student tells me that the entire regional has to wait because he is waiting for a text to make a selection, I believe that I have full grounds to have him put his phone away. What if something happens and he does not recieve a text back? Are we supposed to wait and wait and wait?
The alliance selections are supposed to be a fun and exciting process; if 3000 people are waiting because your team has not prepared your student with a comprehensive list (especially when you are a 5+ year team), then it dulls the moment while he is waiting for a text. We do not have time to let each team take 5 minutes to make a pick (16 picks x 5 minutes = 1 hour and 20 minutes).

The shouting believe it or not, makes it a much more fun process for other teams to be heard that they want to be picked. It tends to remind me of an episode of the Price is Right.

Moral of the story: Have your team member prepared and you won't run in an issue at all and you won't have to go to CD posting in different sections your dislike for what happened. I understand that your alliance partner had another suggestion of who to go with, but the point is moot as there was time to take care of this before your next pick came and that is still no reason to delay the process any further by waiting for a text as other teams have to face the same difficulties.

</soapbox>

[Trent B]

Originally Posted by Tyler Olds

Moral of the story: Have your team member prepared and you won't run in an issue at all and you won't have to go to CD posting in different sections your dislike for what happened.

And every team in the top 15 really needs a list. This year 10,000 lakes had a bunch of teams below 8th seed as alliance captain and when we reached the 7th seed the representative had no idea what to do and lacked a list, granted it was a rookie team IIRC, but it still shows the importance of preparedness.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Trent B

And every team in the top 15 really needs a list. This year 10,000 lakes had a bunch of teams below 8th seed as alliance captain and when we reached the 7th seed the representative had no idea what to do and lacked a list, granted it was a rookie team IIRC, but it still shows the importance of preparedness.

Everyone should make a list. It is a good exercise in evaluating the strengths and weaknesses of teams and robots.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Everyone should make a list. It is a good exercise in evaluating the strengths and weaknesses of teams and robots.

Also good for when you get picked by one of these clueless alliance captains.

[Akash Rastogi]

I have never waited for a text. It is instant like it's supposed to be. Also, we never expect the field rep to text back. We only send messages to them, not back and forth. It speeds up selection for us, not sure about others.

[Grim Tuesday]

Originally Posted by Trent B

And every team in the top 15 really needs a list. This year 10,000 lakes had a bunch of teams below 8th seed as alliance captain and when we reached the 7th seed the representative had no idea what to do and lacked a list, granted it was a rookie team IIRC, but it still shows the importance of preparedness.

In reality, all teams should make a list. If your picked, then you can tell who picked you complements your robot.

On another thing said earlier in this thread (sorry, I dont have a quote), the Q&A is considered a supplement to the rules, unless it directly contradicts it, in which case, one of the two will be updated, usually by the next team update. If it isn't, then FIRST HQ takes precedence at the regional. In other words, Q&A overrules the head ref.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

In other words, Q&A overrules the head ref.

Another confusion is that I'm not sure who makes the decision. Would it be the head ref that makes this decision, our would it be the regional cordinator or the announcer? I don't believe head refs have any say in awards and I get the feeling that alliance selection is somewhere in between matches and awards. I just don't know the inner-working of regionals...

[George A.]

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

Another confusion is that I'm not sure who makes the decision. Would it be the head ref that makes this decision, our would it be the regional cordinator or the announcer? I don't believe head refs have any say in awards and I get the feeling that alliance selection is somewhere in between matches and awards. I just don't know the inner-working of regionals...

There's a bunch of "head honchos" that could be responsible for making this decision. There is always 1 or 2 event managers (usually from Show Ready Events) that oversee everything to make sure timing is on schedule.

There is also the Head Ref that could make the decision, since they are the one that rules their field with an iron fist (it's arguable that alliance selection isn't in their jurisdiction)

So there are several outlets that this call could be made from, it's just up to FIRST to make a ruling once and for all that all events have to abide by.