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Unread 04-04-2011, 20:11
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Re: Should this have been allowed?

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Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
Yes, because playing the game in a legal manner is ungracious. Next thing you will tell me that using my robot in the manner of a battering ram is un-gp. You knew the rules and by not designing your gripper to take a hit you decided that you would take the risk. If I call your bluff it isn't un-gp it is just good strategy.

I've said it before and I will say it again, if I am on the field across from you and find a way of winning a match that is within the rules I will take it. If this means that my strategy incidentally results in damaging your gripper because it was not designed robustly enough then so be it. Will I help you rebuild the gripper? Sure. Were my actions in any way "un-gp"? Not in the slightest. I'm not going to pull a punch on any team. I think going easy on anyone is disrespectful to them.
Totally agree on the fact that legal strategies are... legal. And that throwing tubes at your opponent's claw is legal.

However, you obviously need to be careful about strategies that "incidentally" damage an opponent's robot. There that whole rule outlawing strategies solely intended to damage or disable an opponent's robot. Your intention should clearly be defending the robot in some fashion. As opposed to aiming directly for its arm to damage and disbale it while it doesn't even have a tube near it.
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Unread 04-04-2011, 20:13
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Re: Should this have been allowed?

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Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik View Post
Totally agree on the fact that legal strategies are... legal. And that throwing tubes at your opponent's claw is legal.

However, you obviously need to be careful about strategies that "incidentally" damage an opponent's robot. There that whole rule outlawing strategies solely intended to damage or disable an opponent's robot. Your intention should clearly be defending the robot in some fashion. As opposed to aiming directly for its arm to damage and disbale it while it doesn't even have a tube near it.
Intentional damage would be covered under the rules dealing with egregious behavior imho. That being said, I've been in FRC since the days when wedges were a viable strategy and metal on metal was the norm.
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Unread 04-04-2011, 20:23
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Re: Should this have been allowed?

Going a little off topic, since i think the original question has been answered, has anyone tried "spamming" the opponets zone by throwing tube after tube into the zone until the teams cannot score? seems like a fun strategy for the human player
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Unread 04-04-2011, 20:25
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Re: Should this have been allowed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke461 View Post
Going a little off topic, since i think the original question has been answered, has anyone tried "spamming" the opponets zone by throwing tube after tube into the zone until the teams cannot score? seems like a fun strategy for the human player
Works great until you realize that they can floor load.
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Unread 04-04-2011, 20:28
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Re: Should this have been allowed?

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Originally Posted by Duke461 View Post
Going a little off topic, since i think the original question has been answered, has anyone tried "spamming" the opponets zone by throwing tube after tube into the zone until the teams cannot score? seems like a fun strategy for the human player
So that's what that human player was doing when they were throwing all those tubes in the opposing zone. And here I thought they were just terrible at their job.
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Unread 04-04-2011, 20:36
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Re: Should this have been allowed?

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Originally Posted by Koko Ed View Post
So that's what that human player was doing when they were throwing all those tubes in the opposing zone. And here I thought they were just terrible at their job.

Speaking of which: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I52nJ5bJYkU

Quote:
Originally Posted by nighterfighter View Post
Works great until you realize that they can floor load.
But i mean like so many that it would take them a while to get all the tube out of the way
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Unread 04-04-2011, 20:54
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Re: Should this have been allowed?

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Originally Posted by Duke461 View Post
But i mean like so many that it would take them a while to get all the tube out of the way
I'd be more than happy to get them out of the way. Know just where I'd put them too.

This strategy does work with some select robots at the Feeder Station, but only because the Lane Divider keeps them from simply plowing the tubes aside. By the Grid, you've got a lot more room and Pegs that stick out rather handily. You'd probably run out of tubes before you blocked some of the better scorers, especially those with arms. And even if it takes a bit, once they scored the one they came with, they've got a whole slew at their proverbial fingertips.
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Unread 05-04-2011, 10:53
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Re: Should this have been allowed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke461 View Post

Speaking of which: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I52nJ5bJYkU


But i mean like so many that it would take them a while to get all the tube out of the way
If nothing else poor human player plays have upgraded the comedic potential of the event. Especially on the dry hours of an early Friday afternoon.
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Unread 05-04-2011, 16:17
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Re: Should this have been allowed?

Interestingly enough, our Human Player was Yellow Carded at FLR for throwing a tube that hit an opponent robot that was in its zone. If I remember right, the robot didn't even have a tube.

I believe <T06> was what it was sited under, although that's a very general all encompassing... refs can make decisions needed type rule... Being that it was a week 1 event, my guess is that it just wasn't clear whether it was legal and within the spirit of the rules or not.

Im glad to see an actual ruling (at least by the Q&A).
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Unread 04-04-2011, 18:20
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Re: Should this have been allowed?

Unfortunately the calls like that have been extremely different throughout the regionals. There is no rule that specifically forbids this (please correct me if im wrong), but it is clearly some sort of intentional non-gracious professionalism act, at least from the story, since the opposing human player is on the same side as your robot in the zone. 461 has gone through even worse luck than that, so i know how you feel.
Good luck in the future,
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P.S. The only rule you could bring up is intentionally trying to hurt another robot.
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Unread 04-04-2011, 18:21
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Re: Should this have been allowed?

That's some good aim and distance if it was intentional. At the LA regional I saw some throwers that looked like they'd practiced their technique for weeks...and they still threw about 10% of their tubes out of bounds.
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Unread 04-04-2011, 18:22
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Re: Should this have been allowed?

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Originally Posted by SenorZ View Post
That's some good aim and distance if it was intentional. At the LA regional I saw some throwers that looked like they'd practiced their technique for weeks...and they still threw about 10% of their tubes out of bounds.
If team A is trying to score in their zone, then Human player on team B is right next to them....
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Unread 04-04-2011, 18:45
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Re: Should this have been allowed?

There is nothing FIRST would do about that situation. A referee's call is final.

Your team showed up to the 10000 Lakes competition and did a great job. Our team played with you in the qualifiers, and your people were great alliance partners. I'm sure that your match could have gone either way, and I think both alliances deserved to advance to the next round. When alliances are closely matched, that's part of the deal, and one does not need to feel bad about oneself when the luck doesn't come through. Having said that, it's also true that any team that loses a close match could have won it comfortably (even with some poor luck) if they had built their robot that much better.

But none of that is the reason I wanted to respond to your post. I would invite you to look at this endeavor in a different way. A lack of awards does not equal failure. The whole difficult process of this competition is the important thing here. Running a bunch of students and mentors through that gauntlet is what is changing the world for the better, not the act of bringing home a trophy.
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Unread 04-04-2011, 20:57
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Re: Should this have been allowed?

Quote:
<G57> During the TELEOPERATED PERIOD, FEEDERS may enter LOGO PIECES onto the FIELD by using the FEEDING SLOTS or by throwing the LOGO PIECE over the top of the FEEDER STATION wall. LOGO PIECES may not be thrown around the side of the FEEDER STATION
Violation: PENALTY
This was the first thing I thought of when reading the OP. The field geometry would make it hard to interfere with anything but the side to the left of the drivers (square) without the feeder stepping outside the station to do it. If the game piece did not come over the wall of the feeder station, the feeder deserved a penalty. Even if the penalty had been assessed, it would not have counteracted the loss of logo completion score.

I must confess that I did not pay a lot of attention to feeder activities during the regional I just attended. I did see several more hand excursions through the slot than were penalized, as some were.
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Unread 04-04-2011, 21:41
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Re: Should this have been allowed?

I was FTAA at the Connecticut Regional. As one who was really in the heat of things, I can tell you that human players were not perfect in throwing the tubes. In fact there were many times that a human player threw the tube & it went in a completely different direction of the intended throw. Being on the sidelines as FTAA is not all fun & games. There were a lot of throws that went outside the field, hitting FTA, FTAA, Refs, scorekeepers & scoring tables. So many hit the minibot towers I thought the lights would break right off. I agree that I can't see how a human player could throw a tube & hit a robot about to place a tube on the rack. I suppose he could hit the end one on the top, but nowhere else. I saw no players able to throw the entire length of the field in the air. The aerodynamics of the tubes are lousy.
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