A plead to FIRST, anyone else agree?

[Frenchie461]

Originally Posted by ratdude747

you pretty much summed up part of what i was trying to say earlier. GP is for off the field (in the pits/stands, etc.), but on the field, people should play to win.

Exactly. At 461, we try to help everyone who comes to us. It doesn't matter whether they are our next ally or our next opponent, we help them. If we end up losing, then we helped a team to success.

Why do we do that? What honor is there in defeating a bot that can't move or can't score, when you could defeat a bot by a small margin knowing that you helped them have a better experience at their regional because they could play the game.

[Bob Steele]

I would only like to address the issue of "shameless" advertising.

I don't get your point... This is the 20th Anniversary of FIRST.
It is ENTIRELY appropriate to use the LOGO as the game pieces.

Are you really so tunnel-visioned in your opinion about FIRST being self-serving to not see that?

As far as the game being the same one... sorry...not so...
We played in Rack and Roll... Different dynamics totally... even if you leave off the end game (ramps vs minibots)

If you want to have totally new games... we wouldn't be able to use a ball as a game piece. They have been used most years...

I suggest that if you want to boycott to force FIRST to do YOUR thing instead of what is currently being done... that is certainly your right.
Just take your robot and go play somewhere else...

Oh wait a minute... there really aren't any other places to play with a robot as sophisticated or a field as large or the rich history that this competition has..

My apologies to the other robot competitions...I have participated in many of them and I am in FIRST because it is really the Superbowl of Smarts... yes I like that phrase...

[playbass06]

1. The "true" message of FIRST is great, but it does not need to be repeated 200,000 times.
Agreed, but to a point it is necessary to make sure teams get it. There are those who still don't get it's not about the robot alone, and this repetition of the FIRST message will eventually get through to them. I think that's their though process behind it.

2. Go back to more competition, you're beginning to lack in the competitive part of coopertition.
Agreed, there is far too much coopertition. I'm here to have some fun in the game, and that fun is killed when you have matches that are complete shutouts. I don't like how ranking points are based on the opposing alliance score, especially since you can't score for them this year. Breakaway made it okay because you could always turn around and score for the other team, but this year you simply have to pray they get a minibot up.
I say this - complete cooperation off the field, complete competition on the field. This would probably make it more spectator-friendly as well.

3. Enough of the shameless advertising. FIRST is not about the robots, great, but it's not about the politics either, nor is it about FIRST, it's about the future and inspiring our generation, and the next one.
I somewhat agree, and there are things that are being put in place to make a point of this, like the Dean's List award (congratulations to all you finalists!). I really don't think this is happening as you see it, though. I think that FIRST is advertising exactly what you want them to - inspiring our and the next generation. I do have to agree with a previous poster that some celebrity guests are a bit too much, though.

4. Robotics is nerdy. The sooner that is accepted, and embraced, the sooner FIRST can confidently attract others to the program. Nothing says "nerds, beware" like a sign saying "hehehe, it's not nerdy"
Like many before me have said, being a nerd is not a bad thing. We take pride in it. I think the best thing would be to simply stop trying to say anything about nerdiness, be it for or against it. Let people see it as they like, and you'll get students from both sides joining up.

5. You were on a good track with the "spectator friendly" game breakaway, continue on that track.
Breakaway was easy to keep track of due to its simple scoring, but someone (I can't remember who now) mentioned the fact that its goals were on opposite sides, which made it harder for spectators to grasp the concept or follow the game quite as well. I definitely see your point here, and I'd never really thought about that aspect. But there are a lot of sports that have two goals (football, soccer, basketball, etc...) such as this, so I don't think it plays into it very much at all. Maybe I misunderstood and you meant one goal was confusing. I've only been on the team since Lunacy, which was just ridiculous (moving goals aren't a good idea), and I'm split between Breakaway and Logomotion in terms of which was the best. Logomotion is definitely harder to score but I'd say it is more exciting - there's a lot of suspense involved in the gameplay, and some unique defensive robots (3528 and 2240 are the two I've seen with the expandable design, which was pretty cool) make for some very interesting matches.
I don't think the problem is complex scoring, though. I think it's the time it takes to get the final score and how it sometimes differs greatly from what was expected. If FIRST ever gets a completely automatic scoring system, spectators will have no problem following it.

[Seathan93]

Originally Posted by playbass06

4. Robotics is nerdy. The sooner that is accepted, and embraced, the sooner FIRST can confidently attract others to the program. Nothing says "nerds, beware" like a sign saying "hehehe, it's not nerdy"
Like many before me have said, being a nerd is not a bad thing. We take pride in it. I think the best thing would be to simply stop trying to say anything about nerdiness, be it for or against it. Let people see it as they like, and you'll get students from both sides joining up.

I'm not sure whether people just misinterpreted what I said, or jumped down to the summary but:

What I was basically trying to get across is exactly what you said, that we should just stop trying to say anything about it. The accepting it was more towards, that's how most people who are NOT involved with engineering or robotics or FIRST view this competition. Basically, when talking about FIRST, mention all the good things about it, but don't even mention the nerdy/cool aspect of it.

[Marc P.]

Originally Posted by Seathan93

Then...there was coopertition. As if Gracious Professionalism weren't enough, FIRST brought out Coopertition (competition and cooperation). Basically everything Gracious Professionalisms embodied, but much more explicit. On top of that, the games were changed to make it such that the robots who scored the highest, did not necessarily rank the highest. I understood the concept, help other teams out, get games where the score is more even, and then everyone wins. But, in the middle of a competition, there are times where even helping another team out, will not change how they play on the field. The rules of the games have even become more strict, since coopertition has come out. I won't get into that now, that's another point, but FIRST has killed some of the innovation by restricting how you can play a game to such an extreme, and red carding anything slightly competitive.

I encourage anyone who thinks coopertition is a relatively recent thing to research the FRC game from 2000 (hint: look at the name).

Truth is, it's been around for a while, and it's here to stay. And it's not a bad thing. This year I see robots filling up both racks with all sorts of manipulators, from sophisticated roller claws, to tennis balls stuck on the end of two pieces of 80/20. I see multiple sub 2 second minibots with all sorts of deployment mechanisms. I see excitement in high scoring matches. Forgive me if I find that more competitive than drivetrains shoving each other around.

Maybe I get that from living through Stack Attack. Maybe I'm just getting old.

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by Seathan93

I think FIRST needs to back off a bit on the speeches about how it's not about the robots.

Disagree. If they don't continue mentioning this (and the rest, year after year) how can we expect the newbies to get that message?

Originally Posted by RoboTigers1796

I say, we all come together and boycott until they promise a new never before seen exciting game that makes the playing field even for all teams veterans and rookies..

OK, you first.

Or maybe YOU come up with that game? Just sayin'

[Seathan93]

Originally Posted by DonRotolo

Disagree. If they don't continue mentioning this (and the rest, year after year) how can we expect the newbies to get that message?

I'm fine with them mentioning the message of FIRST, and as I said, is a great message to mention during kickoff (presumably newbies are watching kickoff). In fact, they could mention it a couple times at competition.

My problem is they mention it too much, to the point of almost trivializing the meaning. It becomes about FIRST and the fact FIRST has this message rather than the principles they're trying to teach with "the message of FIRST".

[BrendanB]

Hmmmmm

I don't think that FIRST is over stating their message. Why? Because it is THEIR message and if you take a step back it is going against the flow of traffic in our society. Look at sports team and other competitions, it is all about beating the pulp out of your opponent which in the end doesn't accomplish much in the real world. I have found this whole Gracious Professionalism and Coopertition really helpful in the work environment.

I would recommend taking a step back and thinking about what and why FIRST is what FIRST is. I also hope that we don't go as far as rash statements or actions against FIRST like boycotts because we are FIRST's customer not manager. We aren't forced to participate in FIRST. They make the game, they make the rules, they make the speeches. I LOVE competition (who doesn't), but if you honestly feel that FIRST is infringing on your ability to be competitive then why not venture into another program? I have thought about it before. FIRST isn't the only robotics/engineering program in existence.

As for the game, if the game changes each year there will be good games and bad games. I commend the GDC for coming up with 20 different FRC games with different twists and turns each year. In all honesty we can wish for a "better" game but delivering such is hard. Think in terms of your own team. We all have great ideas that we run with for 6 weeks and a lot of us wind up thinking at our regionals, "what on earth were we thinking why can't we make better robots". It isn't easy.

I am so glad that FIRST is what FIRST is. Mentoring a rookie team really opened me up to why I love FIRST. The amount of teams who helped us this year really helped us get where we are and what we accomplished. Would local teams really desire to help us if this was a high school sport? Most likely not. How many teams would lend us their mentors to stop in and see what we are doing and explain what they are doing, lend us their practice robot from the previous season to give our kids an up close look at the technology they will be using, proof read our Chairmans essay to offer suggestions and comments, old robots/parts to build our own robot, electronics the week before our regional we needed to be operational, CAD and programming tutorials for those who are venturing into new areas, and above all support at our regionals. What was even more encouraging was seeing our students turn around at our regional and scrimmage helping other teams unload, program, debug, and fix their robots.

Even after writing this post I love FIRST even more despite the ups and down but that is life.

Quick thanks to the following teams who helped us this season:

241 Pinkerton Astros, 1519 Mechanical MAYHEM, 1058 PVC Pirates, 3323 Potential Energy, 501 The PowerKnights, and ChiefDelphi/the programming sub-forum.

[treffk]

This is just my 0.02 and all my opinion, this is just how I see it. I was on a team as a student for 4 years and have now mentored for 2 years. I've been the assistant coach of FLL teams for 2 years and also am the assistant coordinator on the regional planning committee for the MO/KS area and have been for 3 years.

1. The "true" message of FIRST is great, but it does not need to be repeated 200000 times.
Personally I do not feel the message has been over used because everyone's view of the true message is different. Just look at what FIRST stands for "For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology." How you go about achieving that in your team, school and community differs for every team because there are factors like other teams or a small town. I am someone that always is in a FIRST mindset, during the season it's all I talk about and off-season I'm the same way. Outside of your team and FIRST if you went into your community and asked 10 random people if they knew what FIRST was how many would say that they knew exactly what it was?
2. Go back to more competition, you're beginning to lack in the competitive part of coopertition.
As you said FIRST started with gracious professionalism, which is sportsmanship taken to the next level. There was always a coopertition factor to it though, it just didn't have the label. Look at team 1108's No Robot Left Behind program or teams that get to competition and share their extra arms and such(I know my team did in 2007) and my team also loaned our Classmate to a team on an opposing team during the finals once so they could compete. I know that "coopertition" has only had the label for 2 years now but I still see competitiveness at the regionals.
3. Enough of the shameless advertising. FIRST is not about the robots, great, but it's not about the politics either, nor is it about FIRST, it's about the future and inspiring our generation, and the next one.
I am unsure what shameless advertising you are talking about. So what if Wil.I.Am talked at kickoff, it shows that people are taking notice about FIRST. Even the picture of Obama on the ground looking at the robot, it is getting FIRST out there. I just do not see how this is "shameless" advertising.
4. Robotics is nerdy. The sooner that is accepted, and embraced, the sooner FIRST can confidently attract others to the program. Nothing says "nerds, beware" like a sign saying "hehehe, it's not nerdy"
Yes it is nerdy, many teams have accepted this fact, just look at what some of the team uniforms/tshirts are. But, there are so many different parts of the team that are not quite as "nerdy." We recruit by talking about fun experiences and say that anyone can join. I've never gone out and labeled my team or others nerdy, I call them FIRSTers.
5. You were on a good track with the "spectator friendly" game breakaway, continue on that track.
I do not see how this years game was not "spectator friendly" nor do I see FIRST making a game that wasn't because (at least at GKC) the attendance of spectators is growing rapidly. This years game was a bit more difficult to follow all teams at once but most spectators come to watch their team. Breakway was a very simplistic game, it was basically just soccer.

[Seathan93]

Originally Posted by treffk

I am unsure what shameless advertising you are talking about. So what if Wil.I.Am talked at kickoff, it shows that people are taking notice about FIRST. Even the picture of Obama on the ground looking at the robot, it is getting FIRST out there. I just do not see how this is "shameless" advertising.

The game itself mostly, although seeing as it was the 20th anniversary, that makes more sense than it did initially. Also the video they put up on the splash page during the first week of build season.

if you haven't seen it, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmyVK...eature=related

[wireties]

Originally Posted by Seathan93

The game itself mostly, although seeing as it was the 20th anniversary, that makes more sense than it did initially. Also the video they put up on the splash page during the first week of build season.

if you haven't seen it, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmyVK...eature=related

We could do away with the shameless advertising (which is mostly designed to attract sponsors) by paying $10K per regional - which would be crazy!