Tube starvation/stealing

[GGCO]

I think you'll see one robot just dominate the field by collecting tubes and harassing their opponents as they pick them up.

If this robot is good enough, I think we'll end up seeing two of it's opponents sent over to stop it.

Now I'm thinking about it, if the defense is good enough on both teams, the 3rd robot on each alliance might just end up harassing and playing defense on each other.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

And the human players are almost a game within itself.

The Skill Level of some of the Human Players at this point in the season can essentially make a tube starvation strategy useless.

I'd be willing to say that most of the teams on Einstein will have Human players that reliably throw past the caution line 9 out of 10 times.

[rmhooks573]

the strategy of tube starvation of a shape is a strategy that can really backfire on you though; which happened in MSC. i think that the strategy will be used a lot but a lot of teams will see how it can backfire and we will for sure see an all out brawl of who can have the perfect strategy

[kornjones]

I know that our team used tube starving very successfully at the VA regional with 1676 and 25. Now this was for multiple reasons and these reasons will definitely not work for every alliance, it just happened to for our alliance. Our bot can only pick up from the feeder station (hindsight is 20/20) but 1676 and 25 could both pick up and score successfully from the floor, so instead of us all trying to pick up and score tubes on the same pegs at the same time (I believe someone said this was analogous to 1st graders playing soccer which is spot on), we went and picked up squares from the feeder station, 25 scored circles and triangles and if i remember right, 1676 stole whatever pieces didn't make it from the other alliance's feeder to their zone.

surely not a blanket strategy (if a successful one exists) but it worked well for our alliance

[rmhooks573]

the only thing that could virtually go wrong for the strategy is overusage. teams catch onto it and then BOOM!

[rcmolloy]

Originally Posted by kornjones

I know that our team used tube starving very successfully at the VA regional with 1676 and 25. Now this was for multiple reasons and these reasons will definitely not work for every alliance, it just happened to for our alliance. Our bot can only pick up from the feeder station (hindsight is 20/20) but 1676 and 25 could both pick up and score successfully from the floor, so instead of us all trying to pick up and score tubes on the same pegs at the same time (I believe someone said this was analogous to 1st graders playing soccer which is spot on), we went and picked up squares from the feeder station, 25 scored circles and triangles and if i remember right, 1676 stole whatever pieces didn't make it from the other alliance's feeder to their zone.

surely not a blanket strategy (if a successful one exists) but it worked well for our alliance

Even with that, 25 used a similar strategy in our match and we used it throughout NJ and Philly depending on which bots we were playing with but in STL this strategy could be really effective for a team with great bots.

DS1 (Left) is in front of mainly squares and circles. DS2 (Middle) is in front of Triangles and Squares and DS3 (Right) is in front of Triangles and Circles. From there, the teams would go and get their respective game pieces since they were the stations right in front of them. It helps if all 3 bots can score and really takes the confusion of trying to score across partners.

Most of the time though, 2 teams will take a single rack area and try and fill it up. If you're stuck on Einstein with 3 good bots, take this to your advantage.

[Bryany]

So what kind of strategy is useful to counter a tube starvation?

Alternately, what happens when both alliances both try to starve the same shape?

[Blackphantom91]

Originally Posted by rcmolloy

Even with that, 25 used a similar strategy in our match and we used it throughout NJ and Philly depending on which bots we were playing with but in STL this strategy could be really effective for a team with great bots.

Starving against good robots are really hard due to the feeder slot good teams will pick up on that your trying to starve them and go there. You cant block the lanes otherwise its a red card. By starving a team of tubes you also starve yourself in a way. If you are the alliance doing the starving you better know you have a faster minibots because it may come down to it. But like very strategey it has its advantages and disadvantages.

[Dancin103]

Originally Posted by thefro526

The Skill Level of some of the Human Players at this point in the season can essentially make a tube starvation strategy useless.

I'd be willing to say that most of the teams on Einstein will have Human players that reliably throw past the caution line 9 out of 10 times.

I agree with this 100%. If you have a human player that can through the tubes clear across the field into the zone across the caution line, it will be a game changer.

[Gary Dillard]

Originally Posted by Dancin103

I agree with this 100%. If you have a human player that can through the tubes clear across the field into the zone across the caution line, it will be a game changer.

One thing that is kind of an unmeasured quantity - because of its difficulty - is blocking the throws. The high scoring bots are generally pretty narrow vertically, but if you were a REALLY good driver you could in theory play soccer goalie somewhere deep, block the gamepieces mid-air with your arm extended and then herd them away. I doubt that the human players that are throwing across the field are putting enough of an arc to go over a 12'+ robot at the caution line.

[MaxMax161]

WOW, my posts are getting loooong.

Originally Posted by Norman J

I've watched a match in which 469's human player landed all three shapes in the scoring zone with an over-the-back throw with at least 60% success. It's possible for a great HP to feed one effective scoring robot if they're quick.

Really? That's impressive, but I still don't like the idea of only 60% success rate. That's relying a lot on luck and could give your opponent tubes in a pinch putting the nail in your coffin.

Originally Posted by pandamonium

When 3 robots try to pick up tubes from the same general are the same thing happens. What this strategy does is it spreads out your alliance making your team more efficient.

I totally agree that spreading out the robots on an alliance is very important and establishing a game flow and tempo is crucial however I think that this strategy works for more reasons then just that.

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

But tube starvation can and will be effective in the right scenarios, but by no means is it an end-all, be-all strategy. Teams that are going to rely on it as their primary strategy without an idea of how to counter their opponents are going to be in for a rude awakening once they reach the eliminations.

What are some of the other strategies you had in mind? I can think of the play the game, hang tons of tubes strategy (with and without a defender) but is there another?

Originally Posted by AndrewMcRadical

Our team played tube scarcity through almost all of Cleveland, worked well especially against productive offensive robots.
...
it is best to make a call within the first ten or fifteen seconds of a match, but choosing white in the proper circumstance can save twelve points a game when done properly.

I agree, this is definitely a strategy to use against an alliance that can put more tubes up then you can, and a strategy to be prepared to work against if you have a good alliance and your opponent knows it.

I agree with that as well, tube starvation needs to be coordinated between all the alliance members and they need to know which tubes to get ASAP. It's also important that the HPs know this so they don't throw out the chosen starvation tube.

Originally Posted by GGCO

I think you'll see one robot just dominate the field by collecting tubes and harassing their opponents as they pick them up.

If this robot is good enough, I think we'll end up seeing two of it's opponents sent over to stop it.

Now I'm thinking about it, if the defense is good enough on both teams, the 3rd robot on each alliance might just end up harassing and playing defense on each other.

I definitively see a defender as part of a strategy however I don't think that any alliance would devote two robots to stopping one. If a defender can tie up two robots then the defender is accomplishing what they want and the other bots aren't scoring.

Originally Posted by thefro526

The Skill Level of some of the Human Players at this point in the season can essentially make a tube starvation strategy useless.

You really think so? I see where you're coming from but I still think that control on the game pieces on the field via tube starvation stealing is still going to aggravate someone on the other alliance.

Originally Posted by kornjones

I know that our team used tube starving very successfully at the VA regional with 1676 and 25. Now this was for multiple reasons and these reasons will definitely not work for every alliance, it just happened to for our alliance. Our bot can only pick up from the feeder station (hindsight is 20/20) but 1676 and 25 could both pick up and score successfully from the floor, so instead of us all trying to pick up and score tubes on the same pegs at the same time (I believe someone said this was analogous to 1st graders playing soccer which is spot on), we went and picked up squares from the feeder station, 25 scored circles and triangles and if i remember right, 1676 stole whatever pieces didn't make it from the other alliance's feeder to their zone.

Not to argue with our wonderful alliance partner but I would call what we did in VA more tube stealing and less tube starvation. We never picked a shape to not throw out or the try specifically hard to steal so it wasn't really a starving strategy. That said we did focus a lot on tube stealing and control of the game pieces.

Originally Posted by Bryany

So what kind of strategy is useful to counter a tube starvation?

Alternately, what happens when both alliances both try to starve the same shape?

Originally Posted by Blackphantom91

Feeder slot and If you know ahead of time let your human players know to not throw the tubes because of the starvation 1114 and 2056 did a successful counter of this in waterloo I believe and it was quite effective.

I agree, feeder slot is a guaranteed whatever tube you want. The HPs have to be very aware if you're getting starved so they can get the right tubes out to you ASAP.

If both alliances try and starve the same shape then there isn't much of that shape on the field. I think since then they would both have to go to the feeder station at least once per logo it becomes a foot race to see who can hang faster and who can get there and back faster.



I'm just spitballing here but what do you guys think of an alliance made up of three hanging bots that rotate in and out of defense/tube stealing. For example at first bot 1 and bot 2 hang tubes and bot 3 goes over and plays defense/steals tubes, as soon as bot 3 can get a tube bot 1 or bot 2 go in and play defense/steal tubes while the other two hang and so on and so forth. The idea is to get as many of your opponents game pieces as you can while still making your own logos. Do you guys think it would be to hard to coordinate? Wastes time running across the field? Maybe would work better if two bots rotated and one was a dedicated scorer? Something else?

[CallieJ]

Tube starvation, as with any strategy, needs to be something that is thought through completely. There is no strategy in FRC that can be applied successfully to every match- the variables are just too complicated. For the very, very good teams (and I'm talking 1114, 254, 233, that level) it becomes more about finding solutions to the defensive strategies other teams throw at you.

Single color starvation is probably the simplest to accomplish, since it has a very straightforward objective and doesn't require much in-match adjustment. I do know, however, that many of the top teams have been facing that strategy since Week 2 and it doesn't even faze them anymore. If anyone was watching the finals matches at SVR you can see we didn't even bother to try and use it against 254- their human player knows how to get around it.

Some form of tube strategy can make a very big difference when you know that your advantage is in the minibot. But all of these strategies have to be adjusted for the situation. And that's partly what is going to make Championship matches so interesting. At regional events there are often powerhouses who win all of their matches irrespective of their opponents. Occasionally the top couple of teams will play each other and have a difficult match, but usually they just have to play, not do anything stupid, and everything will be fine.

At Championships the way the OPRs play out (at least in Galileo) is that even the top 1 or 2 teams are not guaranteed to win all of their matches if they're playing 3 mid-ranked robots. However, there's not enough of a discrepancy for it to be pushed completely the other way, either. I personally am looking forward to seeing the combination of some of these simpler strategies to fit unique situations.

[pandamonium]

The reason behind why this strategy works isn't in my opinion any of the reasons mentioned, it is actually much more subtle. Have you ever watched 1st graders play soccer? everyone on the same team clumps around the ball making it harder for the team to actually score. When 3 robots try to pick up tubes from the same general are the same thing happens. What this strategy does is it spreads out your alliance making your team more efficient. Taking a tube from the far side of the field isn't a 2 tube swing it actually is more like a 3 tube swing because the closer tube that you could have gone for is still open for your alliance partner.

The blanket strategy this year is having a solid drive team.

also this may sound redundant but a good alliance will establish a "right of way" or some sort of flow so that robots do not get in each-others way.