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Unread 20-06-2011, 12:23
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Re: Driver Selection: A Discussion

For the next two years the drivers are me and another person, period. The reason is becasue we both work great together, we are EXCELENT drivers and are always the people working on the robot.

We know that we are good drivers because on practice day of Toronto we weren't there for half of the day becasue of a Ontario wide English test. Two other teamates drove the robot for 3 matches and put about 3 tubes on total. When we got there we played 3 matches and put up about 15-20 in all those matches, total.

When picking drivers make sure the two are people that know how the robot works and helped design it. make sure they work together alot and know how eachother think. also make sure they know ALL the rules and have good strategy!
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Unread 20-06-2011, 12:27
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Re: Driver Selection: A Discussion

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Originally Posted by akoscielski3 View Post
When we got there we played 3 matches and put up about 15-20 in all those matches, total.
20 tubes in 3 matches is 7 tubes a match. How could a simple driver change make a team go from one tube a match to 7?
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Unread 20-06-2011, 13:38
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Re: Driver Selection: A Discussion

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Originally Posted by Chris is me View Post
20 tubes in 3 matches is 7 tubes a match. How could a simple driver change make a team go from one tube a match to 7?
A few weekends ago at the IGVC tournament, changing drivers resulted in a change from 2 tubes a match (with a certain combination of driver+operator) to 6 tubes a match (with the same operator and a different driver, later in the day). That's only changing the driver - not even the operator. Both drivers had driven tank drives before, although one had never driven in competition and the other had driven in an off-season last year. Had the season drivers been there, they could have put up more (their max is currently 9 tubes + mini)

As long as the machine can perform the task, then the drivers make a significant difference in performance.
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Unread 20-06-2011, 13:43
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Re: Driver Selection: A Discussion

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Originally Posted by Chris is me View Post
20 tubes in 3 matches is 7 tubes a match. How could a simple driver change make a team go from one tube a match to 7?
Very easy especially when they either haven't driven or have little practice with the machine.
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Unread 20-06-2011, 12:45
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Re: Driver Selection: A Discussion

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Originally Posted by Warlord View Post
... There are times when the coach might be micromanaging something else and in those instances the driver must know both what to do in terms of the game and whatever strategy the alliance has decided on beforehand ... my coach told me to do something that was against the rules, or I felt could have ended up in me breaking the rules or breaking our gripper or any number of other things.
Sounds like your coach had no business being coach. Perhaps that's fodder for a new thread - Coach Selection: A Discussion? (I know there are countless threads about "what makes a good coach" and "Mentor vs. Student" but the strategies and methods used, for example, in 2004 don't apply these days).

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Originally Posted by Warlord View Post
... I've told my coach before, it's like, I am miles away from needing a coach to play the game - me and my friend are more than good enough to find and pick up a tube, you don't need to tell us that. What I need are time updates and strategy updates. If something changes, then that is something I will probably not know on my own.
Sounds like you described the Analyst position, not the Coach position. Two key roles of an effective and successful coach are to serve as communicator between you and your alliance partners, and as an extra set of eyes for the driver. Since the coach is able to move around quite a bit, he or she can find tubes you most likely can't see from your vantage point. He or she can see other robots at other parts of the field, determine their strategies, and give you proper instructions for navigating to the scoring pegs. Picking and placing tubes is a good skill, but it's less than half the real game when played at a high level.
The coach-driver communication and trust is critical; I've never experienced a successful FRC driver that is "miles away from needing a coach to play the game."
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Unread 20-06-2011, 20:45
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Re: Driver Selection: A Discussion

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Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
Sounds like you described the Analyst position, not the Coach position. Two key roles of an effective and successful coach are to serve as communicator between you and your alliance partners, and as an extra set of eyes for the driver. Since the coach is able to move around quite a bit, he or she can find tubes you most likely can't see from your vantage point. He or she can see other robots at other parts of the field, determine their strategies, and give you proper instructions for navigating to the scoring pegs. Picking and placing tubes is a good skill, but it's less than half the real game when played at a high level.
The coach-driver communication and trust is critical; I've never experienced a successful FRC driver that is "miles away from needing a coach to play the game."
Well, let me elaborate a bit more.

Essentially, I can play the game myself. Me and my arm guy, we don't need to be told "ok, drive to the tube, ok, now pick up the tube, ok, now turn around, ok, now drive straight." While some of you may not have that perception, my experience is that a lot of people on my team just assume that that is the role of the coach, and I try to stress that it is much different from that.

The key is that rather than micromanage our every action, the coach helps us refine our game, he helps us play the best possible game we can by adding in an extra set of eyes and ears and an extra brain to help make the best possible decisions. You can think of the sequences of events in a game as a series of decisions made by the drive team, and whether or not those decisions were good or bad will determine the outcome of a match (regardless of whether or not those decisions were made beforehand - bad strategies exist). The coach is there to help make the best possible decisions.

There was a time this year when our manipulator broke and my coach told us to try ferrying tubes to our alliance partners. Some time passes and there was just too much traffic for me to effectively push tubes, so I told him hey, this isn't working, let's try playing defense. And I'm really glad I did that because we pretty much shut down their offense.

And there are more times than I can count where I was going in to hang a tube on the second row in front of us when my coach told us that they needed that piece on the top row of the other rack - something that would be difficult for me to see myself, but it's what the coach is there for - not to relay instructions to a joystick monkey, but a critical piece of the puzzle that takes gameplay to the next level.

Put another way, good drivers can make the "best" decision more often than drivers that aren't as experienced or intelligent, but there are loads of times where they don't have the information to make that best possible decision, and that is where the coach comes in.

Last edited by Warlord : 20-06-2011 at 20:54.
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Unread 23-06-2011, 08:18
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Re: Driver Selection: A Discussion

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Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
I would prefer my driver to be knowledgeable about the game, strategy-minded, and coachable. An outstanding, if overlooked, quality of a great driver is the ability to do exactly as told, when told, without second-guessing. Robot driving is not the place for ego or bravado. The person can be the best driver in the world, but when the penalties add up due to lack of robot and game knowledge or communication skills, it's no good.
This scenario strongly suggests that the prospective drivers are headstrong and cocky, not what I'm looking for.

Edit: A key skill that drivers need is the ability to diagnose problems. If the drivers have little to no interaction with the design and construction of the actual robot and its subsystems, then when (not if) catastrophes occur, the driver cannot provide insightful, useful information.
Well said and I couldn't agree more!
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Unread 23-06-2011, 12:23
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Re: Driver Selection: A Discussion

To everyone who may feel in any way offended, I'm sorry in advance, but this is just my opinion. I hear a lot of people saying that the "more dedicated" student has priority before the "skilled" student. Well, what I don't understand is, If you have a dedicated student who works on the robot a lot through the season, and knows almost everything about the robot, and another student, who doesn't work as much on the robot, but has tons of practice driving and spends almost every meeting just driving the robot, then who should drive between the two of them? Now, some people will argue that the more dedicated student should drive, since he/she worked on the robot the most, but I think that the more skilled student should drive.

Why?

Because this student has more "dedication" to the position of driving the robot. The student who works on building the robot may know it like the back of their hand, but speaking from a driver's point of view, they know almost nothing when they get behind the controller.

It's like a game of football. As a coach, would you rather have the player who has been the quarterback before and is good at it be the quarterback, or the player who spent countless hours fixing footballs, washing the team's jerseys, and preparing the team for each match be the quarterback?

Personally, I'd choose the more skilled player.

We as FIRSTers work for 6 straight weeks to build an awesome robot. For the most part, everybody puts a lot of work into the robot, and most people want to drive. Sometimes you have 30 people on a team who want to drive. So, why only choose the most skilled?

I don't know about other teams, but this is a bit how my team works: Each and every person has a job. Each and every person should try their best at that job. We all have a common goal: For the team to win. (I know someone's going to respond and say that it's not about winning, but seriously, who doesn't try to win???) So, we all do our work in the best interest of the team. So when it comes to picking drivers, the most skilled drivers are going to win more than the unskilled drivers, so naturally it is in the team's best interest to choose the skilled drivers.

Again, I'm sorry if anybody disagrees, but this is just my opinion.
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Unread 23-06-2011, 14:23
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Re: Driver Selection: A Discussion

Personally, I like the way 461 selects drivers (at least for this year). The driver had to have been an active person during build season, had to pass a written test on the rules, and then there was a driver skill tryout. The highest combined score between the 3 got the position.
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Unread 23-06-2011, 14:31
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Re: Driver Selection: A Discussion

1503 chooses it's drivers on lots of different criteria. In no particular order, we evaluate potential drivers on skill, commitment, mentality under stress, how well they work with other students. Generally, two students are chosen who are friends with each other, and work well together in the shop.

The actual selection process is kind of neat. First, candidates must email our head mentor during build season outlining why they want to be a driver. Then, that mentor interviews the students with several questions, much like a job interview. After that, all the mentors on the team converse and select drivers based off the information given in the interviews, and their general observations in the shop, etc.

I had the pleasure of working with a new operator this year, who proved himself during the fall VRC season up here in Canada. He's a phenomenal kid. We never really spoke during matches, unless it was about what we wanted for lunch or dinner later. We simply always knew what one another was going to do on the field. We were like this from day one of practice to our last match at Champs.

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Unread 23-06-2011, 19:12
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Re: Driver Selection: A Discussion

Andrew, I'm going to suggest the reason that dedication is taking precedence over skill for a lot of people. Actually, multiple reasons...

1) If all you're doing is driving the robot, sure, you'll be skilled at that. But now, picture this: It's match F2 at your event, and your robot suddenly has a major failure. You have no timeout, and the finals are tied 1-1. Your opponents also don't have a timeout. You used your backup card already. And you have someone on the drive team who has little to no idea how to fix the robot, because he spent all his time driving. (We're using worst-case scenario here: you have a limited number of people allowed during finals, and you can't make the pits in time. Venue-dependent, of course.) That's one set of hands that is, for all intents and purposes, useless in trying to get a fix done in time. Well, go-fers aren't useless, but they do need some speed.

What I'm trying to get at here is that if all you're doing is driving, you don't know where problems might be, which means that the pit crew has to find them. If you have some idea of where problems are (because you spent some time building and learned that, say, gearboxes that get out of alignment bind up), you're a lot more useful to the team. And that extra pair of hands fixing the robot just might make the difference between winning and losing match F3--and the event.

2) Driving skills can be learned (well, assuming that someone isn't taking all the stick time) by just about anybody. Some people just have a better knack at it, or need time to mature in that position. I could drive a robot. Would I be as good as some other members of my team? Nope. Could I get there, with time? Probably. With that same amount of time, could they improve? Sure.

3) This is purely hypothetical here, as is the next situation: Let's assume, for a moment, that you have a case where you really need the driver to do something else for 10 minutes. Maybe it's something that people don't really want to do, or maybe it isn't, but someone has to do it, and everyone else is busy (or trying to do it alone). Let's also say that it's important for some reason. If the driver can't leave practicing for 10 minutes, I'd be somewhat concerned about how much of a team player he is/was/will be when there are others out there. (How concerned depends on how much of a pattern I could see of that sort of thing.) See the finals repair above.

4) Second hypothetical--but this one has happened: The skilled driver is incapacitated. How is beyond where I want to go, but let's figure it's serious enough that he's out for significant time (day, 2 days, maybe even all competition). Now, tell me this: who drives? Right. Nobody--unless someone else dedicated steps up.

Personally, what I'd do with the skilled/not quite knowledgeable vs. knowledgeable/not quite skilled situation is: If you've got the skills, but aren't learning much about the robot (like, where the likely failure points are, or something similar), then you can train someone who is more dedicated to finding those areas that you don't have experience in how to drive. You can be a backup driver. But I personally would not want that skilled person as a driver in the finals. Not for lack of skill, but because I can't rely on him to be able to diagnose and fix stuff in a hurry. At the same time, the person he is training should be teaching him how the robot functions/works. Then, let the chips fall where they may, I don't have just one driver...

...I have 2 drivers with slightly different strengths (one stronger in driving, one stronger in diagnosis and repair), and can pick a primary and a backup based on other factors like maturity, class standing, who buys me more pizzas, and all that sort of thing. I can even put both of them on finals pit crew, allowing for emergency substitution if needed.
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Unread 23-06-2011, 20:18
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Re: Driver Selection: A Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
Andrew, I'm going to suggest the reason that dedication is taking precedence over skill for a lot of people. Actually, multiple reasons...

1) If all you're doing is driving the robot, sure, you'll be skilled at that. But now, picture this: It's match F2 at your event, and your robot suddenly has a major failure. You have no timeout, and the finals are tied 1-1. Your opponents also don't have a timeout. You used your backup card already. And you have someone on the drive team who has little to no idea how to fix the robot, because he spent all his time driving. (We're using worst-case scenario here: you have a limited number of people allowed during finals, and you can't make the pits in time. Venue-dependent, of course.) That's one set of hands that is, for all intents and purposes, useless in trying to get a fix done in time. Well, go-fers aren't useless, but they do need some speed.

What I'm trying to get at here is that if all you're doing is driving, you don't know where problems might be, which means that the pit crew has to find them. If you have some idea of where problems are (because you spent some time building and learned that, say, gearboxes that get out of alignment bind up), you're a lot more useful to the team. And that extra pair of hands fixing the robot just might make the difference between winning and losing match F3--and the event.

2) Driving skills can be learned (well, assuming that someone isn't taking all the stick time) by just about anybody. Some people just have a better knack at it, or need time to mature in that position. I could drive a robot. Would I be as good as some other members of my team? Nope. Could I get there, with time? Probably. With that same amount of time, could they improve? Sure.

3) This is purely hypothetical here, as is the next situation: Let's assume, for a moment, that you have a case where you really need the driver to do something else for 10 minutes. Maybe it's something that people don't really want to do, or maybe it isn't, but someone has to do it, and everyone else is busy (or trying to do it alone). Let's also say that it's important for some reason. If the driver can't leave practicing for 10 minutes, I'd be somewhat concerned about how much of a team player he is/was/will be when there are others out there. (How concerned depends on how much of a pattern I could see of that sort of thing.) See the finals repair above.

4) Second hypothetical--but this one has happened: The skilled driver is incapacitated. How is beyond where I want to go, but let's figure it's serious enough that he's out for significant time (day, 2 days, maybe even all competition). Now, tell me this: who drives? Right. Nobody--unless someone else dedicated steps up.

Personally, what I'd do with the skilled/not quite knowledgeable vs. knowledgeable/not quite skilled situation is: If you've got the skills, but aren't learning much about the robot (like, where the likely failure points are, or something similar), then you can train someone who is more dedicated to finding those areas that you don't have experience in how to drive. You can be a backup driver. But I personally would not want that skilled person as a driver in the finals. Not for lack of skill, but because I can't rely on him to be able to diagnose and fix stuff in a hurry. At the same time, the person he is training should be teaching him how the robot functions/works. Then, let the chips fall where they may, I don't have just one driver...

...I have 2 drivers with slightly different strengths (one stronger in driving, one stronger in diagnosis and repair), and can pick a primary and a backup based on other factors like maturity, class standing, who buys me more pizzas, and all that sort of thing. I can even put both of them on finals pit crew, allowing for emergency substitution if needed.
I know exactly what you mean, and I completely agree with it. My only point is that skill is more important than people are giving it credit for. People are ranking in 4th or 5th most important on their lists, and I just though skill was a bit more important than most people stated. Like I said in an earlier post, there are a lot more qualities in a good driver than just skill, such as knowing the robot and being a part of the building/construction process, but skill is also important. A famous saying in my team goes, "A good driver can make a bad robot succeed, and a bad driver can make a good robot fail". (Credit to Karthik from 1114 for the quote.) In conclusion, I don't mean at all that knowing the robot wasn't important (and I'm truly sorry if I made it sound that way), I just meant that skill is a little more important than some people may think.
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Unread 27-06-2011, 01:29
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Re: Driver Selection: A Discussion

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Originally Posted by SuperNerd256 View Post
"A good driver can make a bad robot succeed, and a bad driver can make a good robot fail". (Credit to Karthik from 1114 for the quote.)
I'm battling your quote with a JVN quote "You can train a monkey to drive a robot, but you can't train a monkey [to think]" (or something along those lines).

At which point I'll point out that as long as the kid shows potential to learn to drive (some kids just don't have that going for them), then they are just as eligible as the kid who can drive. And should be picked based on other criteria.

All of this is my opinion though, and I respect your opinion.


(On that note, I respect everyone's opinions and am glad that they are sharing them, even if I don't sound like it.)
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Unread 27-06-2011, 07:27
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Re: Driver Selection: A Discussion

My main response would be to look at what JVN posted. That is pretty close to what we do.

My second response would be that I look for the best combination of 4 people to be on the field. That may or may not be the best 4 individuals, but the best team of 4.
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Unread 27-06-2011, 08:46
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Re: Driver Selection: A Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie_UPS View Post
At which point I'll point out that as long as the kid shows potential to learn to drive (some kids just don't have that going for them), then they are just as eligible as the kid who can drive. And should be picked based on other criteria.
The important thing to remember when using this logic is that the underlying assumption is that you have time to practice. If you have a practice robot or finish a week early, great. If you have no way to practice, then inherent skill does have to come into play somewhat.
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