Why choose FRC instead of FTC?

[linuxboy]

Hi all,

For 5 years, my school had an FTC team with only a few kids on it. For the 2011 season we started an FRC team and attracted a lot more students to the team: we will have approx. 15 students or more for the 2012 season. I enjoyed FRC this year and learned a lot that I would not have if we had still been doing FTC. We were fairly successful as well: the entire team was excited to win the Rookie All-Star award at the WPI Regional.

The school, however, was not quite as thrilled with the program; FRC was more expensive and took up a lot more extracurricular time than FTC. Administrators seem to be leaning heavily towards going back to the FTC model and not sponsoring an FRC team next year.

I am hoping that the CD community could share their thoughts on how to convince my school that despite the challenges we faced in our rookie year FRC is a program worth pursuing. Basically: why should the school want to choose FRC instead of FTC? Outside opinions may help us convince administrators that FRC is worth it.

Thanks everyone,
Oliver

[EricH]

Attracting students: Right there, that's something that you can point out. More students means more inspiration, better scores in math and science, and stuff like that. (I assume that the administration would like better scores--if nothing else, it makes their school look better.)

You may also be REALLY interested in Bill's Blog for today. http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2011...rvey-says.html

Take a look at the last item on the mentor survey.

There is another thing that could convince the school administration... Try building an FTC-scale T-shirt launcher, and demo it for them. Now build an FRC-scale T-shirt launcher, and do the same demo.

Oh, right: Two other things for the administration to look at would be the CNN education special from a couple months ago and the ABC special on August 14 with will.i.am.

[Andrew Schreiber]

The big robots are sexy.

Face it, FTC is small and slow compared to the big boys. Given the choice between professional hockey and the pewee leagues I know which one I'm watching.

[ttldomination]

I'm going to assume that your administrators have never been to a competition.

1261's administration has been overly supportive, and I think the biggest reason for this is simply because (a) there are results and (b) they attend our events. It's kind of interesting to watch an administrator, more specifically the principal, jump up and down in the stands or watch a student give the principal the grand tour. FRC is an experience of everyone, and perhaps the administrators aren't able to see the other side of things.

FTC is cost/effort effect but the FRC stage is in a league of its own. The students learn to use a wider array of materials, the skills they pick up lean much heavier into the engineering field, the stage is absolutely monstrous, and all-in-all, it's the big leagues of FIRST.

- Sunny G.

[GCentola]

Convince some of the administrators to join the team and see first hand the value of the larger scale. Have them come to an FRC competition to see the results of their hard (and expensive) work. That should be enough to get anyone to support FRC. And if it draws more students to STEM? Not only is that good for the students, but it makes the school look good!

I think some schools also use FTC as a sort of "JV" team and FRC as the "Varsity" level team.

Good luck, i hope you can keep FRC!

[JaneYoung]

I suggest:

- a business plan that contains short term and long goals

- a comprehensive list of the scholarships available and an understanding and appreciation of their value and the opportunities that they afford

- a well thought out plan addressing sustainability concerns. These can include the financial, time, and commitment concerns. They should include looking to the future with regard to the team development and its expectations of the school/district such as a space to build and practice in and financial support.

These are some of the areas that you and the team should look at and spend some time thinking about. You should prepare yourselves well and address the concerns of the administration in a professional and informed manner.

It's about more than the robot. Much more.

Jane

P.S. I would never view the FTC teams as peewee leagues and I think it is an insult to do so. I also have trouble with the JV/Varsity thinking. The FTC teams work hard and their efforts should be respected and recognized for what they are, who they are, and how they inspire. And they do inspire.

[JamesBrown]

Originally Posted by EricH

Attracting students: Right there, that's something that you can point out. More students means more inspiration, better scores in math and science, and stuff like that. (I assume that the administration would like better scores--if nothing else, it makes their school look better.)

Do we have any concrete proof that participation in FIRST at any level increases Math and Science scores? Further more you would need to prove that there isn't a way to get more kids involved with FTC or that FTC wouldn't offer the same benefits.

Originally Posted by EricH

There is another thing that could convince the school administration... Try building an FTC-scale T-shirt launcher, and demo it for them. Now build an FRC-scale T-shirt launcher, and do the same demo.

I am not sure what this will prove, I don't think any one in their administration will say that the FRC bot is not significantly cooler than the FTC bot. The question isn't is one bot more capable than the other, or is one robot bigger (thus more capable of throwing a t-shirt) than the other, the question they need to answer is what justifies the thousands of extra dollars in cost to run one program instead of the other.

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

The big robots are sexy.

Face it, FTC is small and slow compared to the big boys. Given the choice between professional hockey and the pewee leagues I know which one I'm watching.

Much the same as my response to EricH's post, administrators don't care how sexy the robots are, from their perspective it is costing a lot more money and they believe the increased benefits are marginal at best (I have no connection with 3780 but this is a common arguement for doing only FTC.

As far as the hockey analogy it is flawed in many ways. First, FTC and Vex teams are not inherently worse at building and competing than FRC teams are. This means it is not fair to compare it to Pro and peewee hockey. You are putting a simmilar quality team on the field whether the team participates in FTC or FRC (they are the same students from the same school) you wouldn't pay for a amatuer team to play in NHL level facilities while they are trying to develop as players, by the same token you don't need to pay for the students to do FRC then they can learn the game in FTC.

Originally Posted by GCentola

I think some schools also use FTC as a sort of "JV" team and FRC as the "Varsity" level team.

Good luck, i hope you can keep FRC!

This may work to help develop students in some of the bigger FIRST programs, however a small team (the OP said they have ~15 students) would be stretched thin to compete in both. Never mind the fact it only adds to the problem, now you are incurring the cost of both programs.

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

I suggest:

*****I cut this part out to make this post slightly less long, I agree with everything Jane said here*****

These are some of the areas that you and the team should look at and spend some time thinking about. You should prepare yourselves well and address the concerns of the administration in a professional and informed manner.

It's about more than the robot. Much more.

Jane

I may have come across earlier in this post as not being in favor of keeping FRC, it is quite the opposite actually. I believe my real point is the same as Jane's You need to sit down as a team and outline the differences between when you had just FTC and now when you have FRC. What did you learn in FRC that you didn't in FTC (I have found budgeting and part/material selection are two important lessons). Do you have any engineering support now that you didn't before? Would you lose those engineers as mentors if you went back to FTC? You need specific benefits to the program, and these are going to vary from team to team.

One question I do have for you Oliver, do you receive funding from the school? If you do you guys might want to look into raising that money on your own, if you are draining school funds in a time when schools are being forced to cut programs then it will be tough for the administration to support you. However if you are bringing money and corporate interest in to the school to support your program then the administration is much more likely to support the team.

[VML3256]

Back in October of 2009, my team was asking the same question. FRC is a bigger commitment, but you have an opportunity to learn a lot more. It's a higher level of competition. Plus, if you have more than ten people who want to do robotics, then everyone can be on the team. FRC is more like a business, you can have members doing everything from CAD designs to business plans. Whereas, in FTC you really only have to worry about the robot, an engineering notebook and outreach. In 2009, we decided to do FRC, because we felt we were ready to move on to a tougher level of competition. There's a lot more to learn in FRC,.
Overall, the main advantage to FRC, is the wide variety of opportunities. Plus is just more fun because it's way more intense.
If you have enough team members, and a couple of dedicated mentors, I'd say do FRC.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by JamesBrown

Do we have any concrete proof that participation in FIRST at any level increases Math and Science scores? Further more you would need to prove that there isn't a way to get more kids involved with FTC or that FTC wouldn't offer the same benefits.

Take a look at the summary I linked in my first post (Bill's Blog). Concrete proof? No. Anecdotal evidence? Well, this isn't the first survey they've done... and I seem to recall that earlier ones showed something similar.

Proving that there isn't a way to get more kids involved with FTC (or VRC) isn't exactly difficult. It also isn't exactly easy, if you don't like anecdotal evidence. Read the first post: they had an FTC team for multiple years with a few students (IIRC, that's somewhere below 10 due to FTC rules allowing a max of 10). This means that they barely recruited enough to maintain numbers, I'll assume not for lack of effort. The year they go to FRC, they have 15 students for the next year--not counting freshmen, I'd think. At minimum, that's a 50% increase (10-15), if not more.

Short version of the long paragraph: For years, they seem to have had trouble maintaining membership; in a single year, they increased membership significantly just by going up to FRC.

[Garrett.d.w]

Hi,
my team has been in a similar situation, without the FTC option being part of the debate. The administration was/ and still isn't, very keen in giving us support. Long story short, fund raise till you drop. When you are done with that, put that hard earned money to good use. Show them that you are committed to FRC.

For us, it has been very beneficial to become more involved with the school, while avoiding cutting into their budget. Try and generate as much interest in the program as you can. Go to assemblies, involve yourself with other local teams, befriend the FIRST regional director (very helpful as it draws media attention to the school).

Simply put, MAKE THE SCHOOL LOOK GOOD.

If all else fails, do what we wound up doing. Ask only for a space, put in all of the hours after school, and fund raise your own money.

[Tim Delles]

Oliver,

It's sad for me to see a fellow Rhode Island team struggling like this.

Have you talked with the school administration to see what their concerns are about the program? You pointed out that it was more expensive, but is this the only sticking point to it? You also said that it was very time intensive, which it is, but, as a rookie team you should expect to put in some time learning things that other teams already know.

I'd be more than willing to work with you guys on any plans that you need to help with team sustainability, etc. Feel free to shoot me a message any time.

Tim

[linuxboy]

Oh boy do I have a lot to repsond you and thank you guys for!!

I think a little more in depth team history is in order. I joined the FTC team as a freshman along with 3 other freshman. The team was made up entirely of seniors and one junior aside from us freshman that year. This year like I said we gained a lot of freshman, sophomores, juniors, and seniors. So for FRC this past year I was a sophomore and the bulk of our team had graduated. Once again we had a huge recruitment effort and we therefore ended up with around 17 people.

In short EricH's latest post is generally correct, we did increase membership greatly with FRC.

Originally Posted by VML3256

Overall, the main advantage to FRC, is the wide variety of opportunities. Plus is just more fun because it's way more intense.

I agree the opportunities in FRC are a lot larger, thanks for corroborating that. One think I think the school worries about is it is too intense

In terms of money the school has a budget for FTC. I believe our general plan as an FRC team is to use that FTC budget as well as outside fundraising therefore not costing the school any more money than we would cost them anyway. The issue they have (as far as I can see) is the amount of time it requires for the students that are heavily involved.

Originally Posted by Garrett.d.w

If all else fails, do what we wound up doing. Ask only for a space, put in all of the hours after school, and fund raise your own money.

We didn't use school space last year, we used space at Brown University. All the hours were after school (except competition of course). I'm not so good at the money stuff but we did a lot of fundraising this year and I think we were mostly self sufficient.

I definitely like the suggestions from James and Jane. One thing I want to point out again is that we are not planning on drawing any more money from the school than the budget they already have for FTC since it seems that a lot of people think that money is one of the administration's biggest concerns. On that note the school is not terribly thrilled that students are raising money because my understanding is they want students to focus on the project at hand (in their eyes I suppose this is building the robot), however one of the critical pieces of FRC is the fundraising which I think the school may fail to see. I'm not really sure they they see the part of FRC that is more than the robot. (Note: to any of my school administrators that I may end up sending a link to this thread to, this is not a dig at you, this is a failure to explain the program in full on our part).

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

P.S. I would never view the FTC teams as peewee leagues and I think it is an insult to do so. I also have trouble with the JV/Varsity thinking. The FTC teams work hard and their efforts should be respected and recognized for what they are, who they are, and how they inspire. And they do inspire.

I know I worked hard in FTC and enjoyed it. I see FRC as something different, in the electrical and programming department (where I mainly work) I see it as a bit more "real world" experience in terms of the parts we use and the way we program the robot.

Originally Posted by ttldomination

FTC is cost/effort effect but the FRC stage is in a league of its own. The students learn to use a wider array of materials, the skills they pick up lean much heavier into the engineering field

I really like this point.

Originally Posted by ttldomination

1261's administration has been overly supportive, and I think the biggest reason for this is simply because (a) there are results and (b) they attend our events. It's kind of interesting to watch an administrator, more specifically the principal, jump up and down in the stands or watch a student give the principal the grand tour. FRC is an experience of everyone, and perhaps the administrators aren't able to see the other side of things.

We have had a couple of administrators come to events however not the equivalent we have to a principal.

Originally Posted by paragon

Robot Unicorn Attack was a good rookie team at WPI this year. Say more students are joining and invite the principle to the WPI regional next year to see how fun it is.Also, check out today's Bill's Blog. Good Luck next year.

Thanks!! I'm glad you think so. I think administration will probably also take notice that an established team thought we are a good rookie team!

I definitely plan on sending the administration information on the TV specials about FIRST and FRC.

Quick recap:
We do not plan to get extra money from the school to do FRC. We don't even use school space for it at the moment and all our ours are after school on our own time. The issues that I _think_ the administration has are the amount of time FRC takes (which can be reduced by planning) and the late nights (or early mornings) it involved. We aren't asking them for a budget increase, just permission to form a team associated with the school at our previous budget (which probably involves some gifts in kind - buses and time at assemblies and whatnot)

Thanks for all your advice, I really appreciate it
- Oliver

[Frenchie461]

FIRST is "For the Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology". If having an FRC team inspired more students to get into science and technology, then you were successful. Point out to your school principal that Dean Kamen's vision for first was to change the way that people look at science and engeneering (The New Cool has some good quotes about this), and going from FTC to FRC brings the publicity to do this.

In the words of Dean, "You have teenagers thinking they're going to make millions in the NBA. That's not realistic for even one percent of them. Being a scientist or an engineer is." Try to explain to the schools that FRC can bring more intrest to math and science.

I'm not denying that the larger robots are cooler, but that might not be enough to convinve someone, however an appeal to the help education could work better.

[paragon]

Robot Unicorn Attack was a good rookie team at WPI this year. Say more students are joining and invite the principle to the WPI regional next year to see how fun it is.Also, check out today's Bill's Blog. Good Luck next year.