Legality of CADing components before build season?

[Frenchie461]

One of my friends and I got in a debate about the Legality of CADing drivetrains ahead of time. For example Team xxxx designs and builds a prototype crab drive during the fall; would it be legal to then use the exact same drive system for the next year's game?

Thanks,
Frenchie461

[aechmtwash11]

As I understand this would be legal as long as the team releases the CAD to the public and rebuilds & remakes all the parts during the build season.

[Alan Anderson]

Expect this rule, or one very like it, to be part of the 2012 FRC game manual.

<R22> No final design, fabrication, or assembly of any elements intended for the final ROBOT is permitted prior to the Kick-off presentation.

The "final design" part would be a problem for the situation you describe.

Technically, as long as it's only a CAD file, and you're not fabricating or building the actual part CADded, I see no problem with this. Look at all of the drive trains that people have CADded and put on Chief Delphi. Those are done before kickoff, but they're still legal to use during the build season. It's like an idea. They can't say "no thinking about ideas for next year's game before kickoff".

[James Tonthat]

My understanding is that you cannot CAD up a design and use it as a finalized design as stated by the rule quoted by Alan Anderson.

But...

Designs are never final, you can always make improvements. I'd be amazed if an experimental drivetrain worked perfectly in it's first iteration and needed absolutely no improvement or change.

Take a look at 254/968's drivetrain, while their drive design may look the same year after year, they are constantly making tweaks and changes to the design.

Teams do CAD and build drivetrains in the offseason, and learn a lot in the process to make changes for the next season.

[Chris is me]

We CADed a drive before the season, but then changed it once the game was announced to better meet our needs. Problem?

[Hawiian Cadder]

My take on the rules this year was that you can use designs from prior years as long as the CAD were open sourced. I wouldn't apply this to all models though, for example, making a model of something that you already have and plan to use, however the manufacturer doesn't release CAD Models.

[Conor Ryan]

This really is a "spirit of the game" kind of call: See this(http://www.usaultimate.org/about/ult..._the_game.aspx

For a variety of reasons.

1. I don't know of anyone thats ever been busted for this (but I may be wrong)

2. This is an educational experience, so please don't hinder yourself

3. Don't violate the Non Disclosure Agreement you may have signed because you found something out about the game before everyone else. So now not only are you in legal trouble, but you clearly can't be in competition also.

My take on it is go ahead and do something with your time and teach yourself, the chances of you using an entire design without any significant modification is pretty close to you being on Shark Week because of a Shark Bite. But hey, teams use the same drive train design repeatedly without any problems. So I think offseason research & development of drivetrains is pretty close to legal.

Also consider: next year's rules haven't been finalized yet, so you really have a chicken before the egg type problem and you won't find the answer out until the FIRST Official Q&A opens up again.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Conor Ryan

3. Don't violate the Non Disclosure Agreement you may have signed because you found something out about the game before everyone else. So now not only are you in legal trouble, but you clearly can't be in competition also.

Everyone I've ever heard of who sets things up early (i.e. people building fields at Remote Kickoffs) has the integrity to remove themselves from any design until Kickoff.

[Conor Ryan]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Everyone I've ever heard of who sets things up early (i.e. people building fields at Remote Kickoffs) has the integrity to remove themselves from any design until Kickoff.

That is very true of everybody I have worked with, but from my understanding NDA's are required for many people participating in many different aspects of kickoff, from field design, construction to kit distribution (even at remote locations that don't end with -anchester).

But at the end of the day it goes back to a what-if scenario, the rules are still meant to protect the integrity of the game. So just don't violate that (and that is how most Head Ref's/Inspectors/et cetera would call that from my understanding)

[lemiant]

I know that it is lawyering, but I thought I'd point out that since we don't have the 2012 manual now; unless FIRST tells us not to create designs NOW, then they cannot reasonably expect not to use what we will have created when they release the rule prohibiting it in 6 months

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by lemiant

I know that it is lawyering, but I thought I'd point out that since we don't have the 2012 manual now; unless FIRST tells us not to create designs NOW, then they cannot reasonably expect not to use what we will have created when they release the rule prohibiting it in 6 months

You're right, we may have created it but we can't use it.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by lemiant

I know that it is lawyering, but I thought I'd point out that since we don't have the 2012 manual now; unless FIRST tells us not to create designs NOW, then they cannot reasonably expect not to use what we will have created when they release the rule prohibiting it in 6 months

However, it can be argued that since the 2012 manual has not been released, the 2011 manual is still in effect. Thus, the 2011 rules are still in effect...

FIRST does not restrict prototyping designs before the competition. However, they do restrict taking the exact design used--or the exact prototype--and using it in competition--or have in the past. You must make some change to be in compliance with the rules. This competition is an engineering competition*; sometimes engineering involves taking past designs and changing them to fit your current problem.

Usually, FIRST's method of enforcing this rule group is to change the game every year. Sometimes, they also change the robot dimensions or other robot requirements--this throws off any designs that already exist, just enough to require them to be retuned. (2005, dimensions; 2009, wheels)

*OK, not totally...but for now, I'm just considering that aspect of it.

[Joe G.]

Originally Posted by lemiant

I know that it is lawyering, but I thought I'd point out that since we don't have the 2012 manual now; unless FIRST tells us not to create designs NOW, then they cannot reasonably expect not to use what we will have created when they release the rule prohibiting it in 6 months

The choice to use what was created/CADded is still being made during build season, after the release of the 2012 rules.

I wouldn't bet on this rule going away anytime soon. Build and CAD all you want, it's a good learning experience, but don't expect to be allowed to use it.

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by Hawiian Cadder

My take on the rules this year was that you can use designs from prior years as long as the CAD were open sourced. I wouldn't apply this to all models though, for example, making a model of something that you already have and plan to use, however the manufacturer doesn't release CAD Models.

The 2011 rules allow the reuse of software if it is open sourced, but there is nothing in there about open sourcing CAD files.

The relevant rules section is "fabrication schedule" on page 12 of the robot section of the manual.

The most pertinent passage:

Example: A TEAM designs and builds a two-speed shifting transmission during the fall as a training exercise. When designing their competition ROBOT, they utilize all the design principles they learned. To optimize the transmission design for their ROBOT, they improve the transmission gear ratios and reduce the size, and build two new transmissions, and place them on the ROBOT. All parts of this process are permitted activities.
Example: The same TEAM realizes that the transmission designed and built in the fall perfectly fits their need for a transmission to drive the ROBOT arm. They build an exact copy of the transmission from the original design plans, and bolt it to the ROBOT. This would be prohibited, as the transmission – although fabricated during the competition season – was built from detailed designs developed prior to kick-off.