Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard)

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

So you can't "do something for someone" [presumably helpful to society, and not just lining someone's pockets] in today's political landscape? I'm glad someone actually admitted it. Returning to the main topic.

Meh, it might be possible. Just might need a bit of pocket-lining to do it...

It just isn't as concrete as, say, being able to put a bridge where there was actually a need for one and there wasn't one before.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by EricH

Meh, it might be possible. Just might need a bit of pocket-lining to do it...

It just isn't as concrete as, say, being able to put a bridge where there was actually a need for one and there wasn't one before.

I wonder how much punnage that bridge can withstand.

Again, back to main topic.

[RMiller]

Mr. Campbell brings up an EXCELLENT point (do we produce graduates for jobs that don't exist) that maybe students are catching on to quicker than those employed or retired. The reality is that engineering and hard sciences is not a sacred line of work that cannot be exported overseas (and I don't mean western Europe, Canada, Australia, and Japan, I mean India, China, Russia, Latin America, etc - places that have lower standard of living). I think some of us (myself included) thought this was the case. The fact is, you can do a lot of the work that engineers do overseas: Production, design work, and even research off the top of my head.
So, if the field is small and likely to get smaller, what is the drive to go into engineering and science? I don't have any actual data on hand, but I seem to recall in recent years, the number of graduates unable to get a full-time job in the engineering field to be quite high.
Now add to it that engineering/hard sciences are generally more expensive - often requiring more than four years with additional cost in each term (labs, tuition, etc) along with rising education costs overall. This often requires students to take on more debt, which cannot be discharged in bankruptcy, thus delaying when they can reasonably buy a home, car, start a family, etc even if they do find a job.
Then there is the biggest thing for a lot of college students: engineering and the hard sciences are difficult and require a lot more time and effort than other degrees. Instead of spending all weekend enjoying themselves, they often HAVE to study or do homework.

All this to say: students have many reasons for dropping out. Some of those reasons are the exact same reasons I think we (as part of the engineering / hard sciences community) should not push students without a genuine interest in the field to pursue it and even those that do have an interest should be told downsides to the field (and no, I have not given all of them) while also giving telling them about other options that may in fact be more interesting and practical (trade schools are one example).

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Trent B

As a current college Freshman/Sophomore/Junior (came in with a lot of credits) some of this does hold true.

A lot of the general courses that hundreds of students take each semester are just awful. For example I am in statics and I don't blame anyone for dropping that class. Our book explains almost nothing you have to interpret what the equations mean and the professor only teaches to half of the class. I have seen juniors drop the course left and right because they simply can't learn the material. Additionally the course is graded on a 90+ A 80-89 B etc system, which becomes problematic when the average exam grade is 65 for the class. Many students simply won't pass the class, and a lot will be discouraged to try again.

I came in a similar situation to you. Statics is I think the only engineering class I've taken in my college career that was not curved, and RPI is known for not inflating grades. It looks awful for the professor if they fail half a class.

Originally Posted by Trent B

Additionally, the article touched on the application of all this engineering knowledge. ...

There is only so much they can teach you in four years, and engineering requires a lot of theory. The current policy of teaching students a little bit of everything is a good one, I think. When you consider what it takes to apply every class, there simply isn't time. I think hands on application is great, but ultimately it is up to the student to find these opportunities. If you don't do something hands on getting an engineering degree, you're definitely doing it wrong. It puts you head and shoulders above the kids who don't. Real hardware has problems that just don't show up in the math, and often times don't show up in the CAD. Those unforseen problems are often the annoying kind that you have to solve on an engineering team like Formula Hybrid or Design/Build/Fly. You also get a healthy dose of grace under pressure and real teamwork experience. Colleges often like to tout their project based classes, but I found my working relationships during my internship to be much closer to the relationships I have with my friends on intercollegiate design teams than the ones I had in my group projects.

Mentoring is a huge deal in industry, and I think many college students miss out on this. Fraternities and Sororities are pretty good at this, I think there may be some good things to be gleaned from that model. I definitely benefited from having my DBF friends, in terms of schoolwork help and general life advice. That general life advice bit can be really important in college too.

Originally Posted by TrentB

Other majors think we are insane for doing materials engineering with how difficult many of them find the intro to materials engineering for non materials engineers course. One of my friends called me a masochist for going into it, I told him he is correct. I think to follow it through to the end you really have to want the end result and know that you want it.

I don't think engineers are masochists. I don't like it when things hurt, and I love engineering. I think that is part of the 'problem' and I really have no idea what the solution is. A lot of people just really never learned how to work hard, and they aren't willing to work hard. I play hard, but I work even harder. (And if you want to talk about laughing at mistakes, you can watch the wing fall off the r/c airplane I spent waaaaaaayyyyyyy too many hours on for Design/Build/Fly in my signature by clicking on 'whoops')

Originally Posted by ebarker

I'd also suggest that some people consider taking 5 years to get the 4 year degree. Manage how you take courses.

Another thing to consider is co-op. It will take 5 or 6 years but they do better also..... And you will make money and not have as much debt when graduating.

One of the annoying things about taking semester(s) off is that many of your friends will leave, which can be kind of annoying. I think you get just as much benefit out of interning, and that lets you graduate on time.

[Tom Ore]

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

Statics is I think the only engineering class I've taken in my college career that was not curved, and RPI is known for not inflating grades. It looks awful for the professor if they fail half a class.

I got my masters degree from RPI in 1985 while working at GE in Pittsfield, MA. I had one more class to take to finish and I didn't really care what it was so I picked a class that had no tests. The first day of class, the professor said the reason he doesn't give tests is that no-one can even do the homework so there wouldn't be any point. I survived with a C, but to this day I don't understand why they would structure a course like that...

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

One of the annoying things about taking semester(s) off is that many of your friends will leave, which can be kind of annoying. I think you get just as much benefit out of interning, and that lets you graduate on time.

I learned far more in my two extended co-op sessions working for Delphi Packard (summer plus semester) and made more money () than I did for the one short summer session I participated in.

The extended co-op sessions allow you to spend more time with your mentors and get involved in real-world projects at a much deeper level. My two extended sessions better prepared me for my eventual job more than anything else I took part in during my college career (which, sadly, was devoid of FIRST, even though Team 48 was just getting started at the time I was on co-op. Did anyone think to invite the n00b co-op student to help out and go to Disney and win the Championship Event in 1999? NooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Yeah, I'm not bitter. )

Did I mention they pay you money to do this? Co-op is highly recommended.