EV3 vs Vex IQ For Middle School

[Owen Busler]

Good morning CD,

Today i met with the technology teachers at my middle school and they are interested in beginning a robotics cycle in the school. A cycle is 1/5th of the school year and is only 35 days. They have 6 classes per day with 24 students in each class. They are looking to go either with NXT's or VEX EQ. I have worked a lot with NXT's but never the EQ's.

I was hoping to get some feedback from people who have experience with both as to which you believe would work better in a middle school environment.

Thanks in advance!

[vala]

At my middle school we have a rotation of robotics and they use NXT i think that worked well but ive never used to other one so I dont know if that would be better.

[Allison K]

I work with EV3 & IQ year around and I love the classroom opportunities in IQ.

The base kit IQ kit is less expensive ($300 for an IQ super kit vs. $350 for an EV3 core set) so you get a good value from your initial investment. The base IQ kit also has more components & parts (4 motors vs. 3, 7 sensors vs. 5, controller, and more structural parts) than the base EV3 kit.

The curriculum is free and is quite comprehensive and very flexible, allowing for teachers to pick and choose units for a shorter class or go through each one in order for longer classes.

The driver control option (and default code) gets kids hooked super quickly, and is convenient for shorter classes as it doesn't absolutely require a programming component. It's also nice for classrooms that don't have a full computer lab.

For teachers that would like to integrate programming, there's multiple options all of which I like. It's nice to be able to choose between a graphical environment and a text-based environment.

VEX IQ also has SnapCAD (EV3 may have something similar, I'm not sure), which is 1) good for introducing kids to the concept of design THEN build and 2) practical as far as managing a classroom with a finite number of actual parts.

[Rich Kressly]

Hi Owen,
Allison hit the highlights of VEX IQ for the classroom pretty well, I'll just pile on some additional resources...
here's a direct link to the free online curriculum:
http://www.vexrobotics.com/vexiq/edu.../iq-curriculum
Here's are published books (print versions of the curriculum, complete with a free pdf download):
http://www.vexrobotics.com/vexiq/pro...n-guide-g.html
And the Classroom Bundle (12 Super kits plus more!) is a great value:
http://www.vexrobotics.com/vexiq/pro.../228-4000.html

Please let me know if you have any additional questions by shooting me a message at kres@vex.com. In addition, you might want to talk to Chris Gregory from 1089 as he's using IQ in his NJ classroom as well.

Good luck with it!

[AlexanderTheOK]

Allison K pointed out a lot of the pros of VexIQ. It's really the only way you're going to be able to make something like this for under $400.

However, no product is perfect, so I need to give fair warning that there are currently two HUGE issues with the VEX IQ kit.

1,) I often need to use my teeth to take pins out of places where they cant be pushed out with shafts. (doesn't seem to be easy to get a good grip on the pieces with pliers)

2,) Because such great force is required for putting in and taking out pins, your fingers start to hurt quite a bit.

These issues make construction a great hassle. Now, while this means I would never use this kit in an elementary school setting, the pros of a higher functionality ceiling might outweigh the cons of build convenience for a middle school environment.

[Foster]

Originally Posted by AlexanderTheOK

1,) I often need to use my teeth to take pins out of places where they cant be pushed out with shafts. (doesn't seem to be easy to get a good grip on the pieces with pliers)

[Full force mentor lecture mode = ON]

no No No NO! No teeth!!!!

Go to Harbor Freight and get the long point needle nose pliers. Regular price is $1.89, I've seen them on sale for $1. Buy one for every roboteer. You rip a front tooth out or forbid a veneer off a roboteer ....

[/lecture]

You are right they are a pain. I spent today building an combo Omni-bot/tower/arm lifter. You can also take 3/4 to 1" dowel, cut to 3"-4" lengths, put a 1/4 x 1/4" hole in it and now you have a pin pusher. I've made a few dozen, plus the pliers and handed them out at events to teams that are having problems.

The newer pins are not as tight, and I think they are shipping with the new kits.

NO TEETH!!!

[AlexanderTheOK]

Originally Posted by Foster

[Full force mentor lecture mode = ON]
[/lecture]

You are right they are a pain. I spent today building an combo Omni-bot/tower/arm lifter. You can also take 3/4 to 1" dowel, cut to 3"-4" lengths, put a 1/4 x 1/4" hole in it and now you have a pin pusher. I've made a few dozen, plus the pliers and handed them out at events to teams that are having problems.

The newer pins are not as tight, and I think they are shipping with the new kits.

NO TEETH!!!

I know teeth are not meant to be used like that.

I did it a few times anyways out of the desire to get the experience over with. After all, I'm not buying or making a tool to use 3 or 4 times. I can use my teeth carefully 3 or 4 times.

[galewind]

I'm a high school teacher who just recently started teaching an "Introduction to Engineering with Robotics" course. I decided to use the VEX IQ system due to its flexibility, safety, and, of all things, its sensors and programming. Being a math and computer science teacher at heart, and being deeply familiar with sensors and FRC robots, the VEX IQ kit, in summary, is a dream come true.

While there are a few issues with the way that WE use the kits (stripping axle lock plates, for example), and the fact that we didn't get chains/sprockets, treads, or omni wheels our first year, the kits really do work for a high school robotics course that focuses more on robot CONCEPTS than, say, building a knock-down, smash-up robot game.

If you want to focus on sensors and programming, there are tons of options for both beginners and advanced users. There is a scratch-style programming language called MODKit that can be used, or the robots can be programmed using text-based RobotC (Which anyone in FTC should be familiar with). We opted to use RobotC, and my students programmed autonomous robots (with state machines) and teleoperated robots.

While we had some issues with gyro inaccuracies, the sensors, particularly the smart motors, have TONS of awesome options. The motors can read voltage, have built-in encoders, can be set to hold a position like a servo. Using these for advanced programming activities was a blast. The TouchLED is really awesome, too. Haptic (I believe) touch sensor useful for enabling/disabling routines and displaying color codes for troubleshooting. The possibilities are endless.

This year, we just scratched the surface with VEX IQ -- and honestly, while the materials, of course, are not as robust as something like VEX EDR or TETRIX, the hardware snaps together easily, requires no tools, and can be worked with and cleaned up quickly.

There is also a ton of curriculum out there for VEX IQ, but it is largely targeted toward middle school students. But as I mentioned, the hardware and software features are so robust and complex that it can be used as a tool at any age level, depending on what you're trying to use it for.

I do not regret the decision to go with VEX IQ, and we have ordered ANOTHER 12 kits for the coming year, as well as the other hardware (treads, chains, omnis) for next year. I'm a huge fan.

I hope all of the info helps.

[rwood359]

Originally Posted by galewind

If you want to focus on sensors and programming, there are tons of options for both beginners and advanced users. There is a scratch-style programming language called MODKit that can be used, or the robots can be programmed using text-based RobotC (Which anyone in FTC should be familiar with). We opted to use RobotC, and my students programmed autonomous robots (with state machines) and teleoperated robots.

RobotC also has a graphical mode. It also is somewhat scratch-like. It is very simplified. No task control, no function definitions, no variables (this is going to be harder to get around). It does a very nice job of highlighting the extents of each loop and if/else in a different color. Another useful feature is the ability to convert the graphical program to a C file.
For the past 5 years we have had Lego Robotics as a wheel course for almost all 7th graders (the students get 9 weeks each of 4 different subjects). A few students can opt-out for courses such a robotics, but in general we get 90+% of the students each year. Not everyone comes in with an interest in robotics, so we keep it pretty basic. Little lecturing and lots of hands-on experimenting.
Next school year, we are going to convert to VEX IQ. I volunteer for the programming part of the course. This summer I am converting our lesson plan to use RobotC Graphical mode. I also plan to use the Graphical mode as a starting point for our incoming VEX and VEX IQ team programmers. I think that the color highlighting will make it easier to teach the extents and show the relationship between the colors in graphical mode and the tabbing in text based.

[Billfred]

Garnet Squadron has two FLL teams, and we invested in EV3 kits this year. We also bought two VEX IQ starter kits to use as demo robots that kids could drive without fearing for our ankles.

I haven't set foot in a VIQC event, so I can't judge how they stack up against FLL. But if I was starting a camp or program to teach a lot of kids, and starting from an empty equipment room? VEX IQ, no question. The price is very strong for what you get, and the ability to run teleoperated out of the box makes a world of difference. (Programming is an important part of the experience, but if there's not enough time to teach it or not enough time to implement it well? That joystick can take a frustrated kid and give him or her a whole different outcome.)

Just my two cents.

[AlexanderTheOK]

Originally Posted by Billfred

Garnet Squadron has two FLL teams, and we invested in EV3 kits this year. We also bought two VEX IQ starter kits to use as demo robots that kids could drive without fearing for our ankles.

I haven't set foot in a VIQC event, so I can't judge how they stack up against FLL. But if I was starting a camp or program to teach a lot of kids, and starting from an empty equipment room? VEX IQ, no question. The price is very strong for what you get, and the ability to run teleoperated out of the box makes a world of difference. (Programming is an important part of the experience, but if there's not enough time to teach it or not enough time to implement it well? That joystick can take a frustrated kid and give him or her a whole different outcome.)

Just my two cents.

Just one thing. If teleoperation really matters, the vexIQ joystick is REALLY great, but if that is the only thing leaning you towards vexIQ, nxt 2.0 kits can be controlled via NXT remote control and EV3 kits can be controlled via EV3 Commander.

Now, granted, this requires that you have an android device, most of which aren't cheap, except for this one, currently on sale for 38 bucks. (courtesy of a friend of mine with no CD account.).

While it is definitely a subpar option compared to the fantastic game controller provided with the VEXIQ kits, it is still something to consider.


On another note, does anyone have any of the newer VEXIQ kits with the less stiff pins? If so, are they significantly better, or at least close to the ease of lego connectors?This is legitimately the only thing keeping me from buying a set for myself right now.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by AlexanderTheOK

Just one thing. If teleoperation really matters, the vexIQ joystick is REALLY great, but if that is the only thing leaning you towards vexIQ, nxt 2.0 kits can be controlled via NXT remote control and EV3 kits can be controlled via EV3 Commander.

Now, granted, this requires that you have an android device, most of which aren't cheap, except for this one, currently on sale for 38 bucks. (courtesy of a friend of mine with no CD account.).

While it is definitely a subpar option compared to the fantastic game controller provided with the VEXIQ kits, it is still something to consider.


On another note, does anyone have any of the newer VEXIQ kits with the less stiff pins? If so, are they significantly better, or at least close to the ease of lego connectors?This is legitimately the only thing keeping me from buying a set for myself right now.

Our FLL teams have played with Commander on my iPhone. Ignoring the cost of an iOS device (and/or my nerves about letting even our FLL kids play with my daily-driver iPhone), we've found it to be frustratingly limited in capabilities, laggy, hard to get a feel for, and lacking basic remote operation concepts like "when I let go of the joystick, you stop the motors". That combination of cost, risk to personal equipment, and inferior capability is a demo-wrecker.

I can't compare old and new pins because we only have new ones (we bought our kits around the first of June). Since I have the kits here for charging, I went over and popped a pin in for testing. The connection is stronger than LEGO, and I could not remove the pin by pulling on the free end of the pin the way you can with LEGO. However, a little pressure from the other side of the beam on the face of the pin popped it so it would slide out very easily. Different, but not a challenge once you've learned how it works. Hope that answers your question!

[FTC5110]

Originally Posted by Billfred

I haven't set foot in a VIQC event, so I can't judge how they stack up against FLL. But if I was starting a camp or program to teach a lot of kids, and starting from an empty equipment room? VEX IQ, no question. The price is very strong for what you get, and the ability to run teleoperated out of the box makes a world of difference. (Programming is an important part of the experience, but if there's not enough time to teach it or not enough time to implement it well? That joystick can take a frustrated kid and give him or her a whole different outcome.)

It's an interesting conundrum. Although I totally agree giving kids a joystick gets them hooked pretty quick I'm biased towards initially removing all remote control options and make them learn something about programming! Helps to get rid of that video game mentality. The joystick is what keeps me away from VEX IQ.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by FTC5110

It's an interesting conundrum. Although I totally agree giving kids a joystick gets them hooked pretty quick I'm biased towards initially removing all remote control options and make them learn something about programming! Helps to get rid of that video game mentality. The joystick is what keeps me away from VEX IQ.

Feel free to consider this a stupid question, but can't you just start with autonomous programming projects? VEX IQ even has an entire programming skills challenge for each game, and seems to try to open up the best of both RC and auton worlds for teams. One of the things I like most about VEX IQ over FLL is actually the programming, because it allows text-based RobotC (in addition to graphical and scratch). FLL having only is Mindstorms or Robolab is a pretty big negative for my personal investment.

[Foster]

Originally Posted by FTC5110

It's an interesting conundrum. Although I totally agree giving kids a joystick gets them hooked pretty quick I'm biased towards initially removing all remote control options and make them learn something about programming! Helps to get rid of that video game mentality. The joystick is what keeps me away from VEX IQ.

Like Siri said, just do autonomous programming.

But you may find that the joystick can help with the auto programming. Lets pick an easy task, move to a block, pick it up lift it, move forward to the next block and put it down. Trying to find the right number of motor turns or sensor info can be done in a trial by error routine. But I've found that it's easier to drive the robot over, pick up the block, lift it and then get a measurement on what the motor/sensor sees. Then plug that value into the routine. Drive once and you are done.

@Karthik: Thanks for the video. I'm good with pushing and pulling pins that are in pieces in my hands, not so much for ones that are deep inside a robot. I use long nose needle nose pliers, but I'm up for something easier.