Grades and Student Travel, Etc

[Steve W]

"FIRST has the power to reduce burnout by taking a close look at what their mission really is. Inspiration, if that is the mission, can exist by reducing the constriction put upon teams. Shipping rules, game rules that require teams to use the new technology to be competitive, and finally rules that constrain time before and after ship date are but a few areas that FIRST can assist the program with."

There are some that recognize this quote but many who won't. I was written by a wise and seasoned member of the FIRST community. I came across a VERY long article written by this person and wondered why I had not ever seen it before. There are many enlightening points of view and history that many will find rewarding and interesting.

I would like to start this thread to bring to the CD community gems such as this that can help, warn and inspire us as we come down from this years experience and look at whether it has been worth the while. If you have such articles please point us to them.

This quote came from Mike Martus of Team 47 fame. It can be found on Team 47 website http://team.chiefdelphi.com/ . The writings can be found at http://team.chiefdelphi.com/story.htm . It is a long read but very interesting. Just think, of all of the time that I have known Mike and CD 47 I have not taken the time (till now) to explore their website. Shame on me.

THIS THREAD IS TO DISCUSS THE STUDENT GRADES AND TRAVEL REQUIREMENTS, ETC>

[Tim Delles]

Being a former high school student on the team I am now a leader of, I understand that FIRST can sometimes cause a drop in grades. However my experience has been that during the build season i have always obtained my highest grades (Average in the fall Marking periods in high school was a 92.2%... in the springs it was an average of 96.5%) I guess the desire to do FIRST made me want to get my work done, because i knew that if i didn't get it done I wasn't going to be going to anything.

However, our team does not have this required GPA, which personally seems like a great idea. I would like to implement it onto the team, but im not sure how some of the high school teachers would take this (wether they would be for or against it.)

If you have any suggestions on how to break this to them or get them to join the band wagon please PM me.

[Jeremiah Johnson]

Originally Posted by Tim Delles

Being a former high school student on the team I am now a leader of, I understand that FIRST can sometimes cause a drop in grades. However my experience has been that during the build season i have always obtained my highest grades (Average in the fall Marking periods in high school was a 92.2%... in the springs it was an average of 96.5%) I guess the desire to do FIRST made me want to get my work done, because i knew that if i didn't get it done I wasn't going to be going to anything.

However, our team does not have this required GPA, which personally seems like a great idea. I would like to implement it onto the team, but im not sure how some of the high school teachers would take this (wether they would be for or against it.)

If you have any suggestions on how to break this to them or get them to join the band wagon please PM me.

I was the same exact way. My grades were highest in the spring... then I got bored and they dropped fairly significantly. I finished with a 2.9867 and a maroon tassel. I got ripped off, I should have had a gold tassel.

[phrontist]

After a year long posting hiatus, I have returned for this thread. Having academic restrictions on FIRST team membership is incorrigible.

Success by the metrics of formal education requires a host of skills and personality traits distinct from an aptitude for or understanding of the subject matter. You have to be organized, disciplined, and interested in jumping through arbitrary hoops to prove yourself to your superiors, peers, and society at large.

In my case, I lacked (and to some extent still need to work on) the latter traits. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I was very interested in math/science/engineering/programming in high school, and knew quite a bit about areas of each. Often (but, I'll admit, not always) I did well on my exams but received poor grades overall due to my abject failure to complete assignments. I'm sure a lot of people in my position, finding little validation of their talents in academia, would give up on these harder subjects. These people should not be turned away from FIRST. It saddens me to think that this is the case on some teams, as it seems like they are the sort that could benefit the most from it. For those lacking the traits required to succeed in the academic world, FIRST can provide some validation for what can sometimes seem like hopeless aspirations. This validation can inspire continued efforts to change habits and attitudes.

The carrot and stick approach is demeaning and laughable. Some people are simply not going to master the academic game in high school, no matter how many well meaning adults or peers try to help them. These people (like me!) should just be shunned? Being an underperforming high school student can be pretty hellish - you have every imaginable incentive already to turn things around. For a few students it might be the push they need, but for others it would a serious blow. Had my school had this policy, I would be a very bitter person today.

Originally Posted by ComputerWhizIA

High School is just a stepping stone to College, which is a stepping stone to a career; meaning that you should do good in school while being in FIRST to gain the maximum benefit from it.

I disagree entirely. Every moment of your life has value on it's own, regardless of it's preparatory function. Life doesn't start until (or if...) your career arrives? Or is that just preparation for retirement? Education, and the experiences outside it in high school and college have intrinsic value. My best friendships (practically my only friendships) from high school were made during the robotics season. Really, it was one of the few positive aspects of those years, but it was so great that I look back on them fondly.

Originally Posted by Chris Fultz

People who award scholarships want to help students succeed in college, and one of the best indicators for that is demonstrated academic ability in high school.

No no, they want people who will succeed with as little help as possible. Everyone else is a liability to the institution, and a potentially short-lived revenue source.

GPA measures in the individual those traits required to play the academic game well. These are traits that can be developed though, and it's much easier to do than developing passion for a subject. If you can get young people seriously excited about engineering/math/science, teaching them study skills seems like a trifling matter by comparison.

Originally Posted by Chris Fultz

When you are ready to graduate from college, many employers will use where you went to school and your college GPA as a screen. If you are not above some level, your resume won't even get reviewed.

Really? Other than Google and a few other companies, I have very rarely heard of employers asking for GPA. They usually want transcripts to verify you actually earned a degree, and potentially to check your areas of concentration, but practically no one cares what grades got you that degree. Getting in to graduate school, if you go, is the last time anyone will ask you about your GPA.

[phrontist]

Oh, and I would add that EC's almost never get in the way of school. Look at all the overachievers around you, I bet quite a few of them have an unfathomable number of extra-curricular activities. Most of the people who would fail to meet these grad cutoffs are terminal slackers like I was - there problem isn't too much going on, it's not enough. If you want something done, ask a busy person.

[dubious elise]

On 269, grades are not necessarily a requirement for actually joining and participating on the team. Grades are, however, crucial for traveling with the team. Just like the sports teams at our high school, if certain requirements (Usually a C or C+ average and no failing grades) are not met, the student can not travel to nor participate in competitions.

As a result of this, and as some of you have mentioned, many of our students have seen their GPAs increase significantly during their time on the team, simply because of the heightened desire to be able to see, and operate, their beloved machine in competition. Additionally, because of the range of (I suppose you could say) GPAs on our team, there is always someone that a struggling student can turn to for assistance.

Never underestimate the motivational power of FIRST - it's one heck of a spiffy thing to see in action.

[And yes, phrontist, many employers DO want to see your college, and sometimes even your high school, GPA. Don't burn your ACT and SAT scores yet either - you never known when they'll rear their (ugly?) head.]

[John Gutmann]

I know for me I am not very motivated to do work at any time. At the end of the semester (in 3 days) I will most likely have a total GPA of 3.4 over the last 2 semesters. Now if I cared more and had more discipline to study and do homework I would most likely have a 3.9 or something that high. I have never had to study too much and have always gotten above average grades I guess. In highschool I would get 93% on tests and I wouldn't even remember there was a test. It was kinda just like, Oh look that is a test today oh well. I wish I was brought up to be more disciplined because I know if I cared in highschool the way I am starting to I would have been one of those people with 99%.

I think having a requirement can help and hurt, becuase if a student has a grade so low that it takes 3 weeks to bring up your already halfway through build season. I would rather limit the hours they are allowed at robotics. I think it can make people change but I mean for me unless your were offering me a new car or something like that in highschool I would have looked past the offer.

-John

[RogerR]

Originally Posted by phrontist

Really? Other than Google and a few other companies, I have very rarely heard of employers asking for GPA. They usually want transcripts to verify you actually earned a degree, and potentially to check your areas of concentration, but practically no one cares what grades got you that degree. Getting in to graduate school, if you go, is the last time anyone will ask you about your GPA.

it depends very much on the company; so far, all the really desirable ones that i've seen have had a cut-off of 3.0 or higher; grad schools are (largely) the same way, or higher.

after 7 years of FIRST, i've come to a very improtant conclusion:

FIRST, in itself, will not make you an engineer.

while it is an excellent suplement to an engineering education, it won't replace it. what you experience through FIRST is an extremely small idealized part of the engineering world; there is much that FIRST would be hard pressed to teach you. college is what gives you the tools to become a good engineer, and your grades show how well you know how to use those tools.

for what its worth, up until 2 semesters ago, i was one of those "terminal slackers"; my GPA seldom broke 2.5, and after several years of lackluter performance, i was in danger of losing my scholarship. last summer, and fall, i turned in a 3.75+ performance for both semsters. this semester, (for the first time in my life) i'm aiming for straight A's. its not easy, its not always fun, but it is imprtant. your grades and test scores are one of the major ways that companies and schools can evaluate how well you know your stuff. it may be a hard pill to swallow, but sometimes you just have to buckledown and play the game.

[Salik Syed]

Actually it's not just google, but almost all the top companies hire new faces based on GPA. Investment banking firms, Google, Consulting firms etc. all recruit from elite schools and usually take the people with the best GPAs. Now if you want to settle for an okay to good job then it's fine don't bother working hard and getting a high GPA. But if you want to work for a fortune 500 company or other top company with all the nice opportunities for growth, benefits etc.. you have to work hard even in college. Not saying that's what I do or want to do but that's the truth.

As for high-school, there is no excuse for a low GPA... in High-school everything is easy even slackers can get As with ease. I'm not saying we should restrict people joining robotics teams based on GPA.
What I am saying is that your GPA is the key to suceeding, it is easy to keep it high while doing little work... so why not just do assignments? High-School assignments are a joke, just sit down for the 35 minutes it usually takes and do the work. You won't regret it.

No no, they want people who will succeed with as little help as possible. Everyone else is a liability to the institution, and a potentially short-lived revenue source.

GPA measures in the individual those traits required to play the academic game well. These are traits that can be developed though, and it's much easier to do than developing passion for a subject. If you can get young people seriously excited about engineering/math/science, teaching them study skills seems like a trifling matter by comparison.

The problem is that there are thousands of kids who have passion for things, what sets you apart in a competitive world is when you have passion and in addition to that you have high SAT scores and a good GPA and a load of other things. Secondly colleges/scholarships are usually not willing to overlook the fact that you do poorly in high-school despite it being very easy to do well in.

[pafwl]

At Lansdale Catholic (team 272) we do not have any entrance criteria for a student to be part of the team. I believe this leads to elitism. If we had entrance criteria I may not have been able to be part of it when I was in high school.

I allow anyone to come in and let the process grab them. I have seen many shy quiet students turn into leaders, movers and shakers. I have also seen many "elitists" do nothing but talk.

The only positions we have that any student can try out for is driver, operator or coach. We will not allow a student on jeopardy of academic probation from being on of these.

10 years ago we started and we always asked students to write their thoughts at the end. So do some don't. One student gained some great insight. She wrote "I have always thought that the high GPA students who were my friends in school knew everything. But what I learned is when it came to the real world like trying to design and build our robot they knew nothing. They did not even know where to start. The students I thought were not so bright and did not socialize with in fact knew how to do a lot of this. These people became key to any success we had. I learned that I will never prejudge anyone by their grades or looks."

Remember FIRST is "For Inspiration" of all students. It is a little tough to inspire students you won't allow in.

[Andrea's Mom]

As a teacher and parent of a MOE team member, I have strong feelings about who should and should not participate in a FIRST program. It all boils down to setting priorities - and priorities create very individual choices.

As a teacher, I KNOW that grades are often a poor measure of a student's talents. The FIRST program makes such a positive impact on every student and adult involved; that to deny those benefits to anyone committed to working hard with gracious professionalism is unacceptable. One of the best things about MOE is that a wide variety of skills and talents, from social to mechanical, make each person valuable to the team.

As a mom of daughters who are currently a junior and senior in high school, I can tell you that grades mean more than anything in your profile IF you are going to college. Rigorous coursework, along with good grades, provide students with opportunities for scholarships and admission to highly respected colleges. The FIRST experience is certainly a plus, but it and a C average may not qualify you for the college of your choice.

I teach kids in an alternative high school. We're lucky if 2 kids go on to community college after getting a GED or diploma right after graduation. But even our students would benefit from experience with a FIRST program. In spite of public pressure, not everyone has college in their future The skills and lessons learned during a build season go far beyond winning scholarships and looking good on college apps.

Each student has unique interests, needs and plans for her immediate future. I believe that an FRC program experience is valuable to anyone willing to adhere to team rules and the spirit of FIRST.

. . . sheepishly stepping down from my soapbox now . . .

[vhcook]

Team 1776 is based out of an alternative high school. I'm not entirely certain what the precise requirements are to travel with the team, but I'm under the impression they are largely behavioral.

I think a lot of these decisions are going to be based on the size and composition of the school(s) providing your student team members, as well as what part of the FIRST mission you're focusing on. A lot of what we're accomplishing is teaching the students how to adapt when things don't work, and what you can do with math and science knowledge.

[Kelly]

That was one of the most articulate articles I have read about FIRST in a while. That said, there was section of the article that bothered me enough to bring it up here. As the author described his team's selection process, he seemed to focus on the fact that students need to be making good grades before joining the team. To me, this contradicted the theme of inspiration that was prevalent throughout the rest of the article. Students who are already making good grades have already, at least in a small way, been inspired by school. There are plenty of capable students with sub par grade point averages who have yet to be inspired and it seems a shame to deny them an opportunity as inspiring as FIRST simply because no one has shown them why academics can be worthwhile.

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by Kelly

There are plenty of capable students with sub par grade point averages who have yet to be inspired and it seems a shame to deny them an opportunity as inspiring as FIRST simply because no one has shown them why academics can be worthwhile.

When you have a good reputation and an exciting program then the lure of the team can act as an incentive for students to raise their grades. Mike did not state what the grade level was either. Many sport teams run the same way. Many have to get C average or better to be able to try out for the team.

Mike, can you help us out a little with your teams policies and how they work out?

[Rich Kressly]

Originally Posted by Steve W

When you have a good reputation and an exciting program then the lure of the team can act as an incentive for students to raise their grades. Mike did not state what the grade level was either. Many sport teams run the same way. Many have to get C average or better to be able to try out for the team.

Mike, can you help us out a little with your teams policies and how they work out?

Steve, you bring up an awesome point. I'm not sure about how 47 does business, but in the time I was with 103, the rule was "honor roll" to participate. We then instituted a peer tutoring program to support the effort. Traditionally, we had at least 4-5 students who were NOT honor roll students before joining 103, but because of their desire to participate and go to competitions, they "elevated" their academic performance and got help from team members when necessary. It was rare that we had to leave a student behind for falling short.