The winning move is not to play

[leafy]

9.3.4 & 9.3.5

9.3.4 Match Seeding Points
All teams on the winning ALLIANCE will receive a number of seeding points equal to the penalized score (the score with any assessed penalties) of the winning ALLIANCE.
All teams on the losing ALLIANCE will receive a number of seeding points equal to un-penalized score (the score without any assessed penalties) of the winning ALLIANCE.
In the case of a tie, all participating teams will receive a number of ranking points equal to their ALLIANCE score (with any assessed penalties).

9.3.5 Coopertition Bonus

All teams on the winning ALLIANCE will receive a coopertition bonus: a number of seeding points equal to twice the un-penalized score ... of the losing ALLIANCE.

If the losing team's score is 0, then they get the same seeding points as the winner, discounting penalties.

If the winning team gets a penalty, and the losing team scores 0, then the losing team wins for seeding points.

The optimum strategy is thus to convince your alliance partners to score 0, and help the other team score as much as possible on you to maximize *your* seeding points. You must also defend against all attempts at a counter-strategy to score points in *your* goal to get you points, because their seeding points increase by two every time they score for you.

You can block both of your goals by moving 2 of your robots blocking your own goals, and having one of your robots pushing balls into their zone.

Assume that your alliance gets 0 points, and is the losing alliance. Assume that the other winning alliance gets more than 0 points, designated as n.

Penalties on the winning team are designated as p.

The losing alliance's seeding points can be modeled by y=n.
The winning alliance's seeding points can be modeled by y=n-p.

Thus, the losing alliance team either wins or ties for seeding points. They tie in the case that the winning team also scores 0 unpenalized. They win in the much more likely case that the winning alliance has more than 0 penalties, by p points.

The winning team, if they examine their and your strategy, will be compelled to score as many points as possible, since they want to maximize their score relative to other teams not using this strategy. They won't choose to score nothing as well, since both teams would get 0 seeding points.

[EricH]

This is already being discussed. The answer is the coopertition bonus, given to the winner, making it a winning move to, well, win.

[Mike Schroeder]

Thats a great idea, play that card, see how that works out.... here's how i see it happening, don't play the whole time, then you don't make it into the top 8 and you may as well go home, cause people tend to pick robots that well play the game, not play around the work around of the game, or rank high enough that you place in the top 8... thats great except now you have no strategy to win.... cause loosing in the elims isnt going to get you a tie

[EricH]

OK, I checked the rules. I would like you to go read Section 9.3.7. Now read 9.3.5. Now try to tell me that I shouldn't go after the Coopertition bonus every match in the event.

9.3.7 Seeding Score
The total number of seeding points earned by a TEAM throughout their qualification matches will be their seeding score.

9.3.5 Coopertition™ Bonus
All teams on the winning ALLIANCE will receive a coopertition bonus: a number of seeding points equal to twice the un-penalized score (the score without any assessed penalties) of the losing ALLIANCE.
In the case of a tie, all participating teams will receive a coopertition bonus of a number of seeding points equal to twice their ALLIANCE score (with any assessed penalties).

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by EricH

OK, I checked the rules. I would like you to go read Section 9.3.7. Now read 9.3.5. Now try to tell me that I shouldn't go after the Coopertition bonus every match in the event.

Because if the losing alliance's score is 0, then that coopertition bonus is 0. The strategy posted by the OP is to be shut out and have the opponent score as many as possible.

[kirtar]

Already replied in a different thread. With respect to all possibilities this is probably the worst thing you can do. Not only is it a malicious strategy with essentially no effect but to hurt the other alliance, but it's not even a good move for your team. I thought of this at one point but there is a major flaw which is this: [u]There are other matches going on at the same time[/b]. This will probably net both you and your opponent fewer points than if you did not do this. Odds are, for the most part, you will be behind every other team that wins a match if you use this strategy, but only possibly ahead of those who lose, and probably behind any ties as well.

The only plausible reason that I might consider this is if I know that victory is impossible (e.g. robot breaks). Even then I probably wouldn't because it's not in the spirit of the competition.

[leafy]

Originally Posted by kirtar

Already replied in a different thread. With respect to all possibilities this is probably the worst thing you can do. Not only is it a malicious strategy with essentially no effect but to hurt the other alliance, but it's not even a good move for your team. I thought of this at one point but there is a major flaw which is this: [u]There are other matches going on at the same time[/b]. This will probably net both you and your opponent fewer points than if you did not do this. Odds are, for the most part, you will be behind every other team that wins a match if you use this strategy, but only possibly ahead of those who lose, and probably behind any ties as well.

The only plausible reason that I might consider this is if I know that victory is impossible (e.g. robot breaks). Even then I probably wouldn't because it's not in the spirit of the competition.

It doesn't hurt the opponent's score; in fact, if you pick this strategy, then you increase the possible score of the other team by not taking any balls. You should, if you pick this strategy, push as many balls into their goals or zones as possible to increase *their* score. This also makes up for the fact that there is no coopertition bonus.

As for not being in the spirit of the competition, it's actually *more* in the spirit of FIRST as in winning, you are helping the other team win. It's a symbiotic relationship. Both teams scoring on one team's goals is the purest form of cooperation.

[LavastormSW]

If you play like this, you're sabotaging both your alliance and the other's chances of scoring in the top 8.

Not to mention the fact that it won't be fun to just sit there and watch the other team just drive around.

[kirtar]

Originally Posted by leafy

It doesn't hurt the opponent's score; in fact, if you pick this strategy, then you increase the possible score of the other team by not taking any balls. You should, if you pick this strategy, push as many balls into their goals or zones as possible to increase *their* score. This also makes up for the fact that there is no coopertition bonus.

As for not being in the spirit of the competition, it's actually *more* in the spirit of FIRST as in winning, you are helping the other team win. It's a symbiotic relationship. Both teams scoring on one team's goals is the purest form of cooperation.

Quite wrong. You're actually pretty much doing a double suicide. Neither team will get anywhere near as many seeding points as a team that wins a close match. You will also get 50% fewer seeding points than if you simply tie on purpose using the same number of balls. However, if you purposely tie, the total of the two alliances' scores will be higher than if you simply shut yourself out (6 robot scoring rather than 4).

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Because if the losing alliance's score is 0, then that coopertition bonus is 0. The strategy posted by the OP is to be shut out and have the opponent score as many as possible.

They will then seed much higher than you do. Shutting out an opponent is bad for both teams. I did NOT say that you should shut out an opponent. I did say that you should try for the Coopertition bonus (which means win), which may involve such tricks as scoring for your opponent.

Bottom line: No win, no coopertition bonus. Shut out your opponent, no coopertition bonus. Coopertition bonus will determine much about your ranking. You want to win without a shutout.

[BRAVESaj25bd8]

I've always thought of gracious professionalism as sportsmanship taken up a few notches. Part of sportsmanship is that you do your best to win every game. It shows respect for your opponents and your fans. It is perfectly within the rules to do this strategy but is it really in the spirit of the rules or the competition? I don't think so. That's a judgement call that everyone considering this strategy has the opportunity to make.

[Joe Johnson]

Continue here -- closing this thread because it is a duplicate of the same or similar topic elsewhere.