Powering your USB Hub at Competition

[DonRotolo]

Even though this thread is discussing the control system, I found this to be important enough for its own thread.

Twice our robot became unresponsive, either right at the start of teleop, or shortly after. Pete the FTA at NJ looked carefully at the robot when it happened both times, and in both cases the symptom was no comms from cRio to the wireless adapter.

We strongly believe the solution was insufficient power from the classmate PC to the USB hub for the joysticks.

The solution was to plug both the red and the black USB connectors into the Classmate, doubling the available power for the hub devices.

We have four devices connected to the hub: a joystick, and gamepad, the E-Stop button and the PSOC. I heard from three teams that they had experienced similar issues, and connecting the hub to the classmate twice ( the cable to the hub is a "Y" cable) fixed it. As it did for us.

I can't say how USB affected comms on the 'bot, but after we connected the hub this way, the problem went away. YMMV.

Don

[DtD]

Remember that the E-Stop button can be removed for FMS official rounds - so that will aleviate some power consumption.

[Greg McKaskle]

I thought teams were being encouraged to plug the Cypress directly into one USB hub, and plugging the joysticks and gamepads into the other. As for how this may cause comms issues, since the Cypress device has to be reprogrammed each time it is enumerated. Perhaps power dropouts cause this to happen repeatedly.

Greg McKaskle

[waialua359]

Here's our problem, though sort of off-topic.
How do you recharge your classmate during eliminations when you have to stay on the field the whole time? There is no power to plug into on the driver station area.
This was a major issue for our team as we were scrambling to beg and borrow extra CHARGED batteries.
What happens at CMP?

[Jared Russell]

Would it be correct to assume that the PSOC is the biggest culprit for USB power consumption?

We have two joysticks and an Xbox controller (but do not currently use the PSOC), and have never had any issues running on Classmate battery power (using only the black plug).

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by waialua359

Here's our problem, though sort of off-topic.
How do you recharge your classmate during eliminations when you have to stay on the field the whole time? There is no power to plug into on the driver station area.
This was a major issue for our team as we were scrambling to beg and borrow extra CHARGED batteries.
What happens at CMP?

read this thread

[Mark McLeod]

In these situations on the field that I witnessed, Comms were never actually lost, it just seemed like they were. All statuses were good, but the robot didn't respond whatsoever to any driver controls. Essentially, the Classmate wasn't hearing from the joysticks connected through the hub.

At NJ if I was consulted or found out about it, I had teams plug the PSOC directly into the Classmate and just use the hub for low power devices. A team that didn't use the PSOC, but did have a higher power consumption game controller also had to move that device to a direct Classmate connection.

Using both the red and black USB plugs did not always solve the problem for some, including one of the finalists. They finally went with direct connections for both joysticks. They would have benefitted from just a better redistribution of devices, but under the gun during a match the goal is to just get it working.

[sanddrag]

Does anyone know if there is a difference in available USB power between when the classmate is plugged in, or just operating off the battery?

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Does anyone know if there is a difference in available USB power between when the classmate is plugged in, or just operating off the battery?

There should be no difference, according to the USB standard. In order for USB devices to work on an extremely wide variety of machines (from laptops to desktops, Dell to HP to Apple, etc) the standard dictates exactly how the USB port should act, including how much power is available, the transfer rate, protocol, etc. For any device with a USB output, that standard is going to be followed.

[billbo911]

The Targus USB hub became a real problem for us during a practice day with the Fembots. Luckily I had a spare USB hub in my laptop bag and donated it to the cause. When we returned to our classroom, we found a new use for the hub.........Target Practice!.

[csshakka]

If this solves the problems we were having at the Traverse City competition, this will be very, very appreciated. Out of all of the matches played, we were able to play 1 full match completely, and 2 others for a very brief period. After that it appeared that there was no comm. The field manager helped out a ton, and told us that each time a few seconds into teleop, comm was lost. We had tried multiple wireless adapters and locations for it to sit with no avail. We also have a bunch of joysticks connected to a usb hub only connect to one port on the classmate.

After seeing this thread and mentioning it to one of our mentors, he suggested getting a powered usb hub that connects to a normal ac/dc line, but whip up a device to connect it to something like a 9V battery to power it while up at the match stations. Would this provide more available power for the usb hub then getting a y connector and plugging it into both ports on the classmate?

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by csshakka

The field manager helped out a ton, and told us that each time a few seconds into teleop, comm was lost.

If you were actually losing communication as indicated by the FMS system, then the issue mentioned in this thread is not your problem. The issue mentioned here is where communication is present, but the robot cannot be controlled using USB devices.

[csshakka]

hmmmmm good point. It wouldn't hurt to do it anyway. It's weird because we stay through autonomous, but as soon as start to move in teleop, controls cut out and all the victors flash and no comm :/ . Could this be a programming error? Our team used LabView this year. As a second backup plan, i got nominated to recode our controls in java to test that out. We're still utterly confused by this problem though.

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by eagle33199

There should be no difference, according to the USB standard. In order for USB devices to work on an extremely wide variety of machines (from laptops to desktops, Dell to HP to Apple, etc) the standard dictates exactly how the USB port should act, including how much power is available, the transfer rate, protocol, etc. For any device with a USB output, that standard is going to be followed.

Actually, there could be a difference. The USB standard indicates that a device may initially draw only 100mA from the port. The device must request, via transfer on the bus, if it wishes to exceed that limit, and may request up to 500mA. The host can deny this request if it wants (due to not enough power available etc). I've never seen this actually happen, but certainly seems plausible that a small netbook with a tiny battery might deny >100mA requests when running off battery.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by Mark McLeod

Using both the red and black USB plugs did not always solve the problem for some, including one of the finalists. They finally went with direct connections for both joysticks. They would have benefitted from just a better redistribution of devices, but under the gun during a match the goal is to just get it working.

We were the Finalist Referred to in Mark's post.

Our control board included 2 Joysticks and 8 Push Button Inputs, all of which were plugged into the USB hub, which was then plugged into the Classmate using both the Red and Black Wires. Throughout the day our joysticks dropped in and out but I don't believe we ever lost our buttons. I'm going to have our programmer and Electronics Mentor Re-Wire the PSOC Board and check all of the connections for any shorts or anything that would cause it to draw excessive power. For Philly we're going to try plugging our Joysticks into the Hub and then into one of the USB Ports on the Classmate and then Plug our PSOC board into the Other. Hopefully this'll resolve our problems.

Mark, Thanks again for all of your help throughout New Jersey.

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

We were using both red and black wires to power our joysticks since the beginning of build so I am unaware of what types of problems occurred. What usually happened? Is this what was happening with 1089 and 816, they told me one stick just stopped functioning.

Stogi, our Primary issue stemmed from USB Hub problems and I believe 1089's did as well.

We also had a Faulty C-Rio Power Connection that was causing our C-Rio to Short out and Reset on Saturday...