06-05-2015 14:17

Chris Fultz

2015 IRI Rule Changes

The attached paper contains the 2015 IRI Rule Changes, in the form of a FIRST "Team Update".

To summarize -

The IRI Committee has the benefit of seeing RecycleRUSH in action and seeing the level of play that can be achieved by teams. With this benefit, we are incorporating the rule changes, modification and additions as outlined below.

The intent of the IRI Committee is to minimize the changes to the game and avoid negatively impacting a team / robot / strategy that was implemented to play the game as originally designed, while also increasing the game challenge and level of play for the IRI. Our goals for these changes include: 1) Allow for high scores by minimizing the chance of running out of game pieces; 2) Minimize the number of match outcomes determined in the first second of the match; 3) Don’t invalidate an existing good design or strategy; 4) Keep the event safe; and 5) Don’t start a can-war arms race that encourages teams to invest significant time and resources into an ever-faster device to capture Recycle Containers from the step.
The committee believes the rule changes below meet these goals.

2015 IRI Rule Changes

Each Alliance is allowed 2 extra Recycle Containers, placed on their side of the field, where the Alliance wants. These Containers can be placed anywhere between the guardrails, player station wall and the step, but must be completely out of the Auto Zone. (For example, they can be on a tote, on the carpet, on the scoring platform, on another Recycle container.) The Alliance can also choose to not place these on the field and they will remain out of play for the duration of the match.

6 extra totes per corner (12 per alliance).

Yellow Totes can be used to make regular stacks during Playoffs.

No penalty for yellow totes that cross the step until after co-op has scored.
(Note: Intentionally pushing yellow totes onto the other side before co-op will be a warning, and then a yellow card.)

During the Autonomous period, the "Right side" (from the drivers station perspective) Recycle Containers on the step may only be contacted by the alliance facing them. After Autonomous, Recycle Containers remaining on the step are open to either alliance.

The alliance is allowed to adjust the Yellow Totes and Recycle Containers - as long as they stay within the taped rectangles and in the same "order".

Slightly larger than transport robots can go on / off the field in "play mode" to save time if this can be safely done. The FTA and / or Head Referee may request for teams to return to the transport configuration for safety reasons. All robots must be a able to demonstrate that they can achieve the transport configuration.

A human player may contact with Litter that has entered the field as long as the human player does not cross the field boundary.

+5 pound weight allowance to allow for modifications, repairs, etc.

No inspection - however the FTA or Head Referee may challenge the safety of a device and may request modifications.

Alliance selection draft order is 1-8, 1-8, 8-1. All other alliance selection rules are unchanged.

In PLAYOFFS -
4 team alliances.
All teams on the Alliance do not have to play.
A human player from the 4th team may be a part of the alliance in the match.
The Alliance captain must submit the driver station positions before the match.

Draft order 1-8, 1-8, 8-1

No change to Playoff structure, maximum stack height, noodle use, scoring values.

06-05-2015 14:50

Bennett548

Re: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

So the landfill zone still doesn't include the guard rails?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...2&postcount=21

06-05-2015 14:51

Abhishek R

Re: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

hahahahAHAHAHAHA

*ensue maniacal laughter*

06-05-2015 14:51

AdamHeard

Re: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Doesn't really matter with the new rules relating to grabbing in auto.

06-05-2015 15:03

Boe

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Would a team still receive a red card if the violation is caused by the actions of another robot? Typically there's a rule about strategies aimed to cause the other alliance to receive fouls, but I don't see that this year.

06-05-2015 15:05

Loose Screw

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

2015 IRI HYPE.

The can wars are finally over. Now accuracy > speed when grabbing totes during autonomous. A much needed change that balances the game out. Teams that don't grab in auto could still miss out if the opposing alliance can grab them faster in teleop.

More totes starting with the HP station and two additional upright containers is a huge HP feeder buff. Now an alliance can use two HP feeders to their potential.

With 7 potential containers, most alliances going into finals will be able to use all of them. That means that consistency will be very important. An alliance of consistent scorers, for example, would only need to score from 2landfill + 2HP + 3HP to use their RCs. This leaves 1 stack from the landfill and 2 from HP that could be scored without RCs. I'm predicting at least one match to score every single tote, and that Finals will be won with at least 8 stacks of totes.

Co-op improvements are a nice touch too.

Very nice rule changes as usual IRI, I applaud you yet again. (2012 qualifing triples were fun and exciting)

06-05-2015 15:14

dodar

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

So they are adding totes to the alliance station, thus buffing corner loaders; but did nothing to change the upside down totes or the step totes in the landfill. That seems a like a bad change to not also add to the landfillers too.

Also, if I am reading the auto bin rules correctly, they just took all the fun out of the bin race. Now its just a track meet.

06-05-2015 15:15

Thad House

Re: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Not Quite.... Blockers are still possible as long as they don't contact. (I don't expect this to be the case by the time IRI actually comes around though...)

06-05-2015 15:19

T^2

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

No change to noodle throwing?

06-05-2015 15:25

indubitably

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Great changes for sure! Would have liked to see noodle throwing go, but it will probably be minimal anyways with the increased can usage.

Eh, if they added only 3 to each side then each HP station would have the same number of right side up totes available as the landfill.

06-05-2015 15:26

bkahl

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Addressed in the post.

06-05-2015 15:28

JesseK

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Seems like it will be a huge advantage to have at least 1 robot doing a 4/5/6-capped stack in autonomous. Should give the mid-range 1-2 stack bots something to aim for in order to be successful. It may also make strafing hook elevator bots (like 16, 1418, 1519, etc) even more competitive because they do very well with known positions without disturbing the pre-existing landfill totes.

06-05-2015 15:28

Thad House

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

They can't flip the totes though, at least not without breaking alot of robots. It would move the landfill out 2.2 inches from where it is now. That would break most can grabbers out there. The ones that move forward couldnt move far enough anymore, and the ones with the custom bottom geometry might hit the closer totes now that they are closer to the totes. Flipping the upside down totes has major issues.

06-05-2015 15:52

Chris Fultz

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

That is why we did not change them.

06-05-2015 16:06

Duncan Macdonald

Movable recycling containers and top robots aren't allowed to grab cans? Here comes the autonomous 6 stacks.

06-05-2015 16:16

waialua359

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Its too bad for teams like ours, who designed can grabbers in auto that grab the two center ones by moving back towards the step. Similar to that of Team 610. Understandable though.

06-05-2015 16:27

Maximillian

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Do the 2 added recycling containers have to start the match contacting the field or can they be pre-loaded into robots?

06-05-2015 17:04

DohertyBilly

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Along the lines of this, do the bins have to be righted, or can they be on their side at the start of a match?

06-05-2015 17:07

Jean Tenca

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Once again, I look at the IRI rules for the game and find myself going "I wish the real game had these rules." I wish our team had the funds to apply and travel out there. IRI was one of our greatest experiences. Hopefully there will be good match videos to watch

06-05-2015 17:08

Bennett548

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Is contact with the cans on the step transitive through other game pieces?

06-05-2015 17:10

AdamHeard

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

I would wager that the IRI planning committee is going to make any attempt, in any way, to get the "off limits" containers illegal. I don't see a point in trying to be clever/cute here.

06-05-2015 17:14

Bennett548

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

I agree, I want the rule to be clear so we can avoid another arms race.

06-05-2015 18:43

tindleroot

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Agreed. Sometimes you just have to lay out the rules to be clear of loopholes. But, in the spirit of the OFFSEASON event, which is for fun, and given the IRI committee stated that they intend to avoid an arms race, I sure hope no one tries to make an overpowered, unsafe canburglar just to compete at IRI.

06-05-2015 21:26

billylo

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

We are sad to hear about IRI rule change. :-(

It's been a tough year for 610. Our 4-bin grabber approach was affected quite a bit by rule changes/Q&A clarifications on momentary contacts throughout the season.

I hope you enjoy 610's 4-bin rush one more time on video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_nV7Age3dk

06-05-2015 22:11

evanperryg

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

I think it'll also encourage teams to focus on making the rest of their robot better before IRI. I won't be surprised if we see a couple of teleop can battles when someone misses their auto; I found the teleop can wars much more exciting than a quarter second of flying sticks.

06-05-2015 22:22

mman1506

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

What about only flipping the totes on the left side of the field?

06-05-2015 22:26

Abhishek R

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

That would mess with some teams in teleop, however I do think if it was optional that would be helpful, on both sides.

06-05-2015 23:57

BJT

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

I wonder how much time and effort spent on better canburglars they just saved everyone attending IRI and possibly other off season events?
However, I was kind of looking forward to someone figuring out how to teleport the cans off the step in the first couple milliseconds

07-05-2015 09:54

Lil' Lavery

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Having multiple landfill configurations depending on alliance preference would likely make match resets take significantly longer. I would avoid it from a scheduling standpoint.

07-05-2015 10:16

BrendanB

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

It wouldn't take as long as you think. As long as all of the totes are on the field it doesn't take long for a few people to reset the landfill. Resetting the HP stations could take even longer now with 12 extra totes that would need to get moved back to the corners.

If you had one point person on each side of the field for field reset that each alliance needs to check in with before the end of the preceding match asking for the left, right, or both sides to get flipped it becomes easy.

Yes it makes some can grabbers less effective but if you want the totes that might be the cost. Just a little surprised they are leaving 10 useless totes on the field and not giving teams the options.

07-05-2015 10:18

Taylor

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Another team that is affected by this change is 1024.
The site host team.

07-05-2015 16:41

Citrus Dad

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Laser cannon!!

10-05-2015 09:28

Mike Koch

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Just a quick clarification:
"During the Autonomous period, the “Right side” (from the drivers station perspective) Recycle Containers on the step may only be contacted by the alliance facing them."

Since both alliances face the middle, both alliances are facing all the Recycle Containers on the Step. I think the intention is that each alliance may only go after the RCs on THEIR respective right sides during Auto.

Is that correct?

10-05-2015 09:40

Mike Koch

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Found my own answer in the full pdf which I missed the first time around:

G21-1 During AUTO, the ROBOTS may only contact the two (2) RECYCLING CONTAINERS on the right side of the STEP, when viewed from their ALLIANCE STATION.

10-05-2015 18:48

JB987

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Some great ideas for sure. Scores likely to go higher but I assume an asterisk would be associated with any new 'high score' that comes from this event?

10-05-2015 20:13

Richard Wallace

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

I recall that Chris' initial IRI announcement stated that the game will be RecycleRUSH+.

So, + sign. No asterisk.

11-05-2015 01:29

The other Gabe

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

yes: in essence, you only get to grab from the side that does not have a scoring platform

11-05-2015 19:52

Chris Fultz

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

This rule will be amended slightly to further reinforce the desire to limit the can-burgler arms race. (If you keep finding loopholes, we will continue to close them.)

"A robot, robot part, or game piece that has been contacted by a robot or robot part, may not break the vertical plane formed by the near edge of the step during autonomous. When viewed from the drivers station, this vertical plane extends from the left side of the step to exactly half the width of the field, and extends downward 5 feet below the floor level and upward 46 feet above the floor level. Violation is a RED CARD."

"The only exception to this rule is a robot that has collected yellow totes during autonomous and then scored them on the open area of the step also during autonomous. In this situation, we will not throw a red card, but we will applaud the team that has done this."

11-05-2015 23:00

CVR

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

We got 90% of the way there.

Unfortunately, we only were able to try it once. It was untested on the competition bot before this video was shot, so I'm impressed that we were as close as we were. I'm not familiar with any other team that had tried to do this, so I'd love to see other attempts if anyone knows of them.

11-05-2015 23:32

Bennett548

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Thanks for the clarification on rule intent.

Now I'm thinking how cool it would be if there were a year with no height restrictions again, like 2004 or 2005 for example. There were some crazy tall robots those years.

12-05-2015 17:55

MStump

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Sad to see that some robots like 610 won't be able to compete using some of their mechanisms designed for their Recycle Rush robot this year at IRI due to these rule changes. I personally was a fan of the can wars but I can understand why they would need to be removed at such a high level of competition to prevent dangerous actions from taking place.

Also kind of disappointed that litter throwing wasn't removed and that the landfill totes can't be flipped over as an option...oh well.

On a more positive note, I'm glad to see the addition of 2 cans and 12 extra totes per alliance. Will make for some really high scoring matches.

Should be a fun competition to watch! I expect to see lots of exciting matches!

12-05-2015 22:58

Dave Campbell

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

I'm with Glenn, the rule change about can grabbing center cans in auton really hinders our Recycle Rush game play. Our auton can grabber was a great feature that we designed, built and implemented during the build season and proved that it worked with a week two event Win in Pittsburgh, a week 6 Finalist at Queen City and with GREAT partners won the Carver Division and played on Einstein. Too bad the IRI rules exclude one of our best assets from the entire season.

Hey Chris - suggestion - grandfather clause -NON-CHEESECAKED robots that had designed and used can grabbers in their initial match of their first event for the season, should be able to use them in auton to grab ANY cans, left or right, off the step at IRI.

12-05-2015 23:32

tindleroot

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

As well intentioned as your idea is, something like that would be bad for an event because: 1) some teams will have an "unfair" advantage in the sense that they can use a mechanism that many teams cannot (because whether you used a canburglar at your first event is already decided for all teams). 2) The can wars would then resume. 3) said teams would necessarily get picked early if the cans off the step could win the game.

I agree that the effort teams have put into certain canburglar designs is unfairly lost, but I don't think there is any better solution than IRI has implemented. If the teams want to use a canburglar, it should be fairly easy to redesign it for only one side - speed doesn't matter now, so simpler designs are possible.

13-05-2015 10:57

Mike Koch

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Rule changes like this are totally in keeping with FIRST's modus operandi during Build Season. Although it is at times frustrating, FIRST is acting exactly like a typical Client does in the real world: changing specifications after the contract has been signed and work well under way, and with no deferment of the delivery date or adjustment in price.

And this is a good thing.

Helping us to teach our students not only what to expect when they get a real job but demonstrating how professionals deal with issues like this. GP.

Go FIRST!

13-05-2015 12:38

Richard Wallace

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

I agree completely.

However, meta-reasoning aside, the straightforward reason for IRI rules changes remains what it has been for many years, and it is probably the best reason I have for going to IRI as often as I am able to: we get to play and see a better game.

13-05-2015 13:54

JB987

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

I think these rule changes are great. In fact we are likely to adopt several of them at our CRC (China Robotics Challenge) in August

13-05-2015 14:22

Racer26

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

It does, however, mean that we won't get to see 1114's harpoons in a competition match...

13-05-2015 15:24

The other Gabe

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

well, they could still use two of them...

16-05-2015 14:26

CVR

Re: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Could you clarify this a little bit?

Are teams able to place the RCs in any orientation? (for example: up right, sideways, upside down)

Can the RCs start the match touching a robot? In particular, can they start supported only by the robot? If they do have to start in contact with the floor or another game piece, can they be partially supported by a robot? If they cannot be partially supported by the robot, can the robot be partially supported by the RC? (for example: A canburgler resting on the RC)


4039 appreciates all the hard work you and others have put into making IRI a world-class event, and we're eager to finalize some plans we have to make ROY G BIV even more competitive.

16-05-2015 23:29

Chris Fultz

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

In general, you can put them where you want (within the limits above), in any orientation you want.

However, the rules for the extra RCs are different from the 3 already on the field. so let us think about how to word this.

21-05-2015 17:30

MooreteP

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Would you consider the rule changes that BattleCry will be trying this weekend?

They are removing some totes from the landfill to create space on the step to score more points with the golden totes. An interesting permutation.
BattleCry Rules of Engagement
1. Bonus Circle (“BC”) End Game Opportunity: Two 12-inch circles marked as “BC” will be attached to the step for each QUALIFICATION match.
Each circle has a designated color (red or blue). Bonus Points will be scored based on the color of the dot, not based on the alliance of the robot who placed totes on that dot.
AT THE END OF THE MATCH: An alliance will be awarded 10 bonus points for EACH yellow tote in contact with their color BC or solely supported by a tote in contact with their color BC at the end of the match.
NOTE: The BCs do not affect how or when the COOPERTITION STACK or SET are scored by referees. They will be scored per 3.1.2.2.

This alteration provides for an opportunity for alliances to compete for the Co-opertition totes to gain more points.
Heck, if you made it 20 points per golden tote things could get crazy.

Imagine two teams on opposing alliances battling for the co-opertition stack after the 5-second time limit. Waiting to place them on a scoring circle before time expires, while the other alliance tries to knock them down........

21-05-2015 22:59

logank013

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Checked out IRI changes last week. Seems like really good changes but also really game altering. Taking away bin wars now eliminates any defense what-so-ever that was in the game. Disappointing but good at the same time I think. Can't wait to be there with my team. Good luck to all in the off season.

22-05-2015 07:40

Loose Screw

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

I love these changes, and removing the can wars is the best one. Matches wont be decided in the first second, so it'll be more of a battle of consistency and scoring potential. As for defense, we still have the pool noodles and the center cans if a team misses them in auto.

31-05-2015 09:21

Kevin Leonard

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Was this question ever completely answered?

01-06-2015 23:36

CVR

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

As far as I know, Chris hasn't mentioned anything more elaborate than this:

Above referring to his original post (I believe).

I'm sure the IRI committee have been busy with the huge task of the invite list, and now that's finished, I expect that we'll get an answer relatively soon.

03-06-2015 16:21

Kevin Leonard

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

This rule would also currently bar a design like 1024's only being intended for use on the right side, or 610's "crossbow" with only the right side rod extended. I don't believe this is the intent, but could a design like a one-sided 610 or 1024 be used, or would that be illegal?

(This is why we don't try to lawyer the rules against their obvious intent. It makes some otherwise-legal designs illegal.)

03-06-2015 17:22

Bennett548

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

I think the intent was to give each team shot at two of the recycling containers on the step. Dividing the step in half is really the best way to do this, to prevent 610 and 1024 (for example) from colliding in the middle of the step.

In this case I feel the clarification was necessary to prevent teams from building blocking devices.

The beauty of the clarification is that it provides a very clear answer to your question. If their "robot, robot part, or game piece that has been contacted by a robot" breaks that plane they are given a red card.

1024 could just only use one arm. 610 could remove half their arm and move the robot over a bit and that might work, but they may need to remove part of the structure so that it doesn't break that boundary plane.

03-06-2015 20:17

Poseidon5817

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

From 2.3.1: Totes

Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't there be 152 gray totes on the field at the start of the match according to the list above?

12 + (2*28) + (2*42)
12 + 56 + 84 = 152

06-07-2015 19:31

Joe Ross

Re: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Has there been any changes due to this question?

07-07-2015 18:56

Chris Fultz

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

we will post a final rules update by Monday and have copies in the pits for each team.

08-07-2015 06:46

Chris Fultz

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Last night we re-read the rule changes and the comments / questions in this thread. We don't want to make anything more restrictive regarding the Recycle Containers, so the only real change to what has already been stated is to clarify that the extra RCs may be in contact with a robot and can be in any orientation.

08-07-2015 07:19

IndySam

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

So the robot can completely be supporting the RC?

08-07-2015 17:48

Chris Fultz

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

There is no rule to prohibit this.

08-07-2015 18:56

IndySam

Re: paper: 2015 IRI Rule Changes

Thanks Chris.