09-02-2003 16:11

ZACH P.

Nice, where did you obtain your treads and the rollers for those treads?

Very nicely put together.

11-02-2003 13:43

Steven Carmain

We made the rollers, I don't think we can release the treads.

11-02-2003 13:45

Lauren Hafford

SEXY!!!!!

i only wish our drive train was that shnazzy! ours is kind of...jerryrigged...i guess...:-)

lauren

11-02-2003 14:06

Matt Reiland

Question to team 45 on the mounting of the air shifter:

It looks like you have screwed into the end of the cylinder that contains larger threads and the pin. Is this cleared somewhere in the rules? When we were going to do the same thing our interpretation of this rule


M16 Pneumatic components supplied in the Kit (pump, regulators, pressure switches,
cylinders, valves, fittings, tubing, etc.) may not be modified except as follows:
· Tubing may be cut.
· The wiring for the valves and pressure switch may be modified as necessary to
interface with the rest of the control system.
· Mounting and connecting pneumatics components using the pre-existing
threads, mounting brackets, etc., is not considered a modification of the
components.

Seemed like drilling and tapping into the end of the cylinder was considered a modification. Just wondered if there was an update I don't know about.

12-02-2003 00:14

Andy Baker

Hmmm

Matt,

Good point. This needs investigated.

I do know that teams have been allowed to alter this portion of the cylinders in order to mount them to their 'bot. I think that this rule has always been in the FIRST manual, but there has also been a clarification in years past that allows for alterations of this part of the cylinder.

Once I find out the details, I'll post. I assume that other teams will want to do something similar.

<edit>
OK... I checked the official jive site and FIRST will not allow this. Matt, thanks... I am glad that you pointed this out. We would much rather change this now than at the competition.

FIRST's answer

But... for what it is worth, I see no harm with altering that portion of the cylinder. We are still a good 1/2" from the air chamber... sheesh! Oh, well.

<edit>

Andy B.

12-02-2003 09:52

Matt Reiland

Uhhhhhh, we are also in violation to the ruling you showed Andy since we used the existing threads on the body end but it required removing the pin. I hope they can clarify this a little better.

12-02-2003 10:32

Paul Copioli

Andy & Matt - Here Is What We Did

O.K. guys, we actually nitced that rule and made our details accordingly. By the way the CTT (Crazy Techno Transmission) is what we are callin gour version, but it is still a TechnoKat ripoff. I have attached a dxf file of our detail for your reference. I will even offer to have our machine shop make it for you, if you'de like.

It takes the shift shaft and connects it to a 4mm ID bearing. The bearing is held by clip rings.

E-mail me if you want more details.

-Paul

12-02-2003 10:43

Matt Reiland

Paul, Is your detail for the Body end or the Rod end?

Here is what ours looks like after the detail I made, it didn't modify the cylinder but it required the pin to be removed so it could be threaded on to the end of the cylinder body.

12-02-2003 10:50

Paul Copioli

Rod End

Matt,

My detail is for the rod end. We are using 2 cylinders, not 1. Your implementation could not use my detail, sorry.

-Paul

12-02-2003 12:20

Matt Reiland

Well this sucks, I just got a response from FIRST
Reply:

When we examined the cylinders that we had in stock, we thought that the
end pins were more than lightly pressed into the cylinder bases. We
envisioned teams clamping the cylinders in vises and driving the pins
out. Because we had the "no-modification rule", and did not want teams
criticizing us for another rule change, mid stream, we stuck to it and
issued the response quoted above. Rule M16 did not specifically state that
you could not remove the pin. The Forum posting by FIRST clarified the "no
modification of pneumatic components" statement in M17 by explicitly
mentioning the pin. By removing the pin, you have modified the air cylinder.

36F

Looks like I have to modify my mount to put the pin back in, shouldn't be that bad I guess just a waste of my time

12-02-2003 14:14

JVN

We ground down the pin while it was still in the cylinder. So it's still there... kind of.

What do you think the ruling on this would be?

13-02-2003 09:35

Paul Copioli

I Would Say It is a Modification

I would say that it is against the rules.

13-02-2003 11:33

ChrisH

John,

Sorry to say, I agree with Paul. I realize that it may be alot of work to undo something like that, but better now than later.

I seem to recall a saying about the wise man accepting correction while the fool curses his luck (at getting caught). In the Proverbs perhaps?

Based on your previous posts, I assume you're doing the wise (and graciously professional) thing.

13-02-2003 17:38

JVN

Sigh...

We're ordering a new cylinder, and switching them out in the pits at UTC. This seems to be the best solution given the circumstance.

Paul-
Thank you for your opinion, your comment weighed quite heavily in my decision.

ChrisH-
Even the best teams skirt the rules every now and then, but we don't agree with that, so we try to keep everything well within the bounds of gracious professionalism. So we'll certainly be doing the wise thing and replacing it. Thanks.

This is what design constraints are for, right?

Thank you all for your comments.
I thought I was fairly well in touch with the rules/updates, but I didn't even notice this ruling. I wonder how many other teams will be simliarly affected.

13-02-2003 17:46

Matt Reiland

I wish I had never brought it up!!

17-02-2003 22:11

Clark Gilbert

Our Fix

Here is what we did to fix our modification.




Description:
Here is how we fixed our illegal modification (as pointed out in another thread). All we did was make this cap that went over the end of the cylinder, and the pin still fits (as well as serving the purpose of holding on the cap). And the shifting part screws into the cap we made instead of the cylinder.