20-02-2003 18:03

Greg Needel

that is one of the coolest devices I have seen....I didn;t even think of locking into the rail...not only do you block the ramp but the whole field.....I Hope those arms are strong...and can you get there in auto mode? and how fast can you get there?

20-02-2003 18:38

RogerR

That 'bot makes me smile. I look forward to seeing you at nats. The only problem I could possibly see is that the metal poles touching the ground are, um, well, metal, and the rules state that "hard" materials cannot come in contact with the playing surface, but that should be easy enough to fix using some timing belt and some screws.

Good Luck, Roger

20-02-2003 18:45

RamsRobotics

This bot is amazing! let's just hope we never have to face you...

20-02-2003 18:54

Alexander McGee

yeah, you cant see it from the pictures, but there is a nylon fitting in the bottom of all the "Legs"

20-02-2003 21:51

Joe Johnson

Bold statement...

Truck Town has made a bold statement with this machine.

I hope you have build it "Like a Rock" because I imaging the beatings Beatty took last year will look like child's play next to full force knocks you can expect if you trap 2 unfriendly robots on the wrong side of the field.

I have a question for the general audience here. Notice that the limbo blockers are in a sense designed not just to block limboing but also to prevent other robots from spinning the Truck Town robot.

Does this run up against the complex rule of what you can and cannot design your robot to react against? I confess I don't have my rules handy but I think there was some prohition against using the limbo bar in certain ways, the specifics of which I don't recall.

Comments?

Joe J.

20-02-2003 21:54

Tom Schindler

after thinking about Joe's comments, and taking another look at the picture..... how high is it to the bottom of the wings you guys have? It seems like some limbo bots may be able to scoot right under you in this position.....

Tom

20-02-2003 21:58

Jnadke

Man, that robot looks awefully like last year's bot, with a few modifications :-D


Anyways, I'm almost certain that mechanism would be used to push against the limbo bar, which is illegal this year. Even if a team has to push the blocker into the barrier, T3 would still be at fault. It looks like the limbo-blocker touches the ground, which violates the metal-to-carpet contact rule. They'll eventually get DQ'ed sooner or later.



A lot of rule violations with this robot. BAAAAAD design concept IMO.

20-02-2003 22:00

Austin

Awesome Robot, it should work great as long as:
It follows the rules
The arms don't get broken
It gets to the top of the ramp and perfectly
aligned in auto mode

Good luck,
Austin

20-02-2003 22:03

Katie Reynolds

T3 already clarified in another thread that there is a nylon fitting on the bottom of the 'limbo-blocker', so no metal is touching the ground. I'm not sure about the contact with the limbo-bar rule, though ....

Overall, awesome concept! I hope everything goes well for you! Between your robot, and 179 ... yikes! I hope we can withstand the competition!

- Katie

23-02-2003 20:24

David Bridge

Those arms are awful long, a robot running into either side of truck town could generate a lot of stress on the end of the arm pushing against the bar. Should be interesting to see in action.

23-02-2003 20:33

ngreen

nice. great concept. hope you guys can pull it off.

23-02-2003 20:41

IVIaxor

Unless there is some thing that is not visible in the picture it looks like you do not have a method to adjust your position laterally. So if you are not exactly centered on the ramp, or you get knocked off center it looks like that would create space to fit a robot by on one side or the other.

23-02-2003 21:11

MikeDubreuil

I myself think that Truck Town took a bold stance into thinking they may have found a loop hole in the rules. I hope FIRST takes their own bold stance as well- Truck Town is in clear violation of the FIRST rules and must change their design, or face disqualification via DQ1 ("DQ1 An alliance may not gain points by breaking a rule, even accidentally.")

Rules Violations:

GM28 - "Attach themselves to the railings/walls of any field structure."
I believe the wings do attach themselves to the railing.

GM31 - "The outer field barriers are safety features of the playing field and robots should not be designed to react against them. Reacting is grabbing or using the top of the field borders,
the top of the driver stations, the top of the pipes at midfield, and the top of the platform/ramp polycarbonate sides with the intent of supporting a robot or robot part."
The wings on truck town are meant to react against the side of the midfield barrier. I italicized side, because the rule states "top". This is the only gray issue.

You may think this post is a little harsh. In some ways it is, there is a clear infraction of GM28 and possibly even GM31. My concern is if FIRST allows teams to cross into the gray area to much we will have the majority of the teams in the gray zone. My team decided against a design that would interact with the playing field, because we play by the rules. Often we must use our judgment when we enter the gray zone, FIRST likes to call it gracious professionalism. The bottom line is that FIRST will make the final call if this robot is legal. I just hope they make the right call because there will be a lot of pissed of teams who threw away designs just to see the rules allowed to be broken by one courageous team.

24-02-2003 02:47

Mark Garver

You were right, alittle harsh, but glad to hear your take on things. As you stated FIRST will have to make a ruling on this, however I feel that it will have to be done each match, since you have not fully see what the arms are for. I am not sure if it was in your post or an earlier one, but someone mentioned they were to prevent us from spinning, which is incorrect. The amount of traction that we will gain on the top surface should be enough. I hope that you can make it to one of our competitions so that you can see the robot in action.

Again thank you for the comments, they will not go overlooked.

24-02-2003 04:16

DougHogg

"Attach" per the American Heritage Dictionary online is

"1. To fasten, secure, or join: attached the wires to the post."

(See http://www.bartleby.com/61/73/A0507300.html)

Those arms don't look fastened to the midfield pipes.

"Support" per the American Heritage Dictionary online is

"1. To bear the weight of, especially from below."

(See http://www.bartleby.com/61/66/S0906600.html)

I don't see the pipes holding any of your weight.

(There are other definitions for both words, but I think those are the ones that apply to the context in the rules.)

Personally I think that you have come up with a brilliant solution to this year's competition. I have to admit to being a little annoyed--not with you--but with myself for not thinking of this possibility.

We thought that we had a real jump on the game by swinging our telescoping arm from the starting position to knock down the bins. You have given us a lot to think about.

Great job. Hopefully we will make it to the Nationals and be on your team.

24-02-2003 13:40

Rook

I defended team 68 in the other thread, and I will do it here. There is no clear violation of the rules. I agree it is something that needs to be looked into by the judges. However, if the first in match it is decided that Team 68's arms are not illegal, then that ruling should apply for the entire competition.

Team 68's design is meant to contact the carpet and that is all. We all know that if a robot hits them, then the bar is going to back them up. It's the same thing though if one robot is trying to push a weaker robot out of the way. If the stronger robot backs the weaker one into the bar. The weaker robot isn't going to be DQ'd because their bot is taller than 14".

The game of Football is over 75 years and each year, they STILL argue over rules. A complicated game like FIRST is going to have these little gray areas. FIRST is especially vulnerable to this kind of thing because the game changes every year. As members of FIRST, we should expect that the officials will take every precaution so that there are no gray areas, but we also have to have a realistic and mature attitude about it.

FIRST is about pushing the envelope, and coming up with the best ideas and strategy to win. It's obvious that Team 68 put a lot of thought into this design, and I think they deserve to be allowed to use it.

24-02-2003 13:56

f22flyboy

this is similar to the "entanglement" issue last year with the tether bots, flagboles, tape measures, etc. As long as the wings aren't pushed against the bars, it should be legal.

24-02-2003 14:12

Jnadke

Your analogy is severely flawed.

What if a robot is pushing their arms on the HDPE? There's no reason for the limbo blockers to be there in this case, but it will put them at a severe advantage because their arms can't move (let's forget about the thick treads... pretend the TechnoKats are pushing against them). We all know the arms will react with the playing field in TWO places, one for each arm. Therefore, they are reacting with multiple playing field surfaces, which is a clear violation of the rules.

Remember, there are 2 arms on the robot, so both are going to react with the field, that's what I'm trying to point out. It violates the "pushing against multiple surfaces" rule.

If they only had one arm, it wouldn't be so bad, because you could easily use it as a lever and rotate them out of the way. In their current form, it looks as if it would make them nearly impassible.



I'm not saying their mechanism is definately illegal, because I don't know how exactly it's going to work. If it will slide into the bar, then it can be considered illegal. However, if they are able to hold their ground and not contact the bar... so many "what ifs" that you can't decide until the first match.

24-02-2003 14:34

Mark Garver

I believe if you read your rules again you will find that you are mistaken when they discuss touching multiple surfaces. How about a robot that is both on the wire mess and the carpet? Touching more than one playing field surface. There is a ruling on multiple surfaces, I will give you that. I am not in front of a set of rules however I believe the way the rules are stated is that you may not touch more than one surface of the midfield barrier. You can argue how to define a surface however since the pipe is round, if we were pushed into the bar, the arm would be tangent to the round bar and this is what I would define as one surface. You can only argue this point if you blam us for what other robots do to us. Read this set of rules carefully and I think you will find what I am getting at.

24-02-2003 14:41

Gadget470

The bickering on the legality of 68's bot needs to stop.

I've said it before in another thread.

We are at a fork in the dicussion. One path is legal, the other is illegal. Nobody knows which path is which. Of course 68 is going to say it's legal, it's how they interpretted the rules. Of course some other people are going to say it's illegal, it's how they interpretted the rules.

NOBODY KNOWS IF IT IS LEGAL OR NOT. Nobody. Not the people who built it, not the people who are talking about it. You don't know because the rules are vague. Multiple Surfaces? HDPE, Carpet, Midfield Barrier, possibly Mesh (if arms get bent)... ok, does the rules state WHICH surfaces you can't touch?

My understanding was that you couldn't hold the HDPE and touch the lexan on both sides. I may be wrong, I don't have the rules in front of me, nor do I care.

Fact is, 68 made a great robot. No matter how much you argue, your say doesn't matter. Your being people For and Against it. It's up to the inspectors and referee's at competition.

24-02-2003 14:56

Jnadke

I'm not going to attempt to interpret it or be the interpreter anymore. All I can have are opinions, that's it.


As I said before, there are too many "what ifs". It all depends on how you handle your robot and depends on how familiar the referees are with the rules. Some of these referees have done this for years. Some aren't as experienced and are unfamiliar with the rules. It also depends on their interpretation of the rule. It's impossible to tell what your robot will do from pictures, all we can do is try to imagine what it would do. The only people are you guys that know what it will do. Hopefully it has been thought out enough.


No matter what, it's an ingenious design, and for sure Team 68 thought "outside the box". Hopefully they didn't think too far outside the box, but it was very nicely executed. The judging on this robot will either make it or break it. I have to say, good job team 68.




On a side note, did you guys build two robots like you did last year? That'd be quite a battle at IRI....

24-02-2003 16:01

Matt Attallah

Heh. Nice robot. Hope to be your allys and your opposing force. It would be fun to see what we can come up with/aginst eachother...

24-02-2003 16:01

Mark Garver

Yes, two completed robots with enough spare parts to more than likely build at least one or two more full robots, with spare parts to spare. I agree, it should be interesting if Lady Thunder is up to the challenge again this year. I think that the two robots paired together would be a cool site, since they will be going after different obectives. You will have to wait and see what I am getting at in this regard.

Thank you for stating the rule. Like I said, I wasn't infront of my rulebook. I agree it will be up to the judges and how they decide to rule on whether we are making ourselves immovable or whether the team pushing is at fault. Only time will tell...

24-02-2003 16:37

Rook

[[[GM31
It is also unacceptable to grab onto or push hard enough against multiple surfaces simultaneously in order to wedge and make immovable a robot.]]]

If I were a judge, I know I am not, but IF I were, I would interpret that rule as such.

From the photo, Team 68 does not appear to be grabbing or pushing the mid field bar. They are only positioning themselves around it. It's a very clever idea. Also, it remains to be seen how "immovable" they will be in this situation. So since 68 isn't actively attaching themselves to the bar or even pushing on it with their own power, and if they are still movable then they are not in violation of GM31.



Also, I am not "bickering" over the rule. I am discussing the rule with other people who feel like discussing the rule back with me. Why is this bad? Nobody is calling anybody names. We know we aren't going to make the final decision. We are just having a civil discussion.

24-02-2003 16:49

Jnadke

An Easy Modification

Just a suggestion, but how about bending the pipes that fit over the midfield barrier at a 45 degree angle? This way, when a team pushes against you directly, your arms will automatically lift/slide off the bar because they are slanted. In this fashion, a team still cannot limbo under the bar because they would be riding up your 45 degree slant. Except... this option wouldn't really work if the third stage is powered by a motor... which it doesn't look like it is. It looks like it pivots freely in which case this would work.


In fact, it's even better than the 90 degree bar because they have nothing to push against. As soon as they hit the slant they would just ride up it.

24-02-2003 16:54

ggoldman

I have a quick question for the truck town team...

How do you rotate those wings out. I cant make out what motors..if any..u use from the picture.

Also, what will you guys do if you dont make it to the ramp? What else can your bot do?

Thanks

Gabe G.
Mentor team 384
Engineering student at VCU

24-02-2003 17:06

Jnadke

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...pagenu mber=1


Take a look at that thread. If you take a look at the 2nd image on the page (titled "Image 2 of 4"), you can see a black motor on the arm joint (2nd stage of the arm). Looks like they are probabaly using the Denso Window motors, because they would need 2. It can't be the Bosch Van Door motor because we only get to use 1 of them. The CIM motors would be overkill for this application. It makes sense that the window motors would be used because of their worm gear and you wouldn't want the secondary arm to lift up if you want to transfer weight.

If you look at the rear of the robot in that picture, you can see another black motor (unless that's poorly blended background). My guess is that this would be the Van Door Motor and it controls the wings together. This would be practical, because it can be backdriven and you wouldn't want to damage the wings. It also has lots of torque.

The 3rd stage looks as if it swings freely.

24-02-2003 19:31

WakeZero

First of all, great robot!

I look forward to seeing you guys at the AZ regional, it is looking to be one HELL of a competition, lol. I think our robots may be butting heads on more than one occasion, every match will be exciting though

24-02-2003 19:35

KyleGilbert45

This is a great looking bot, as always.... I can see them totally dominating their matches but oh the carnage if someone decides to play dirty with the ramming....but hey..all in good fun..I'm really looking forward to seeing you guys in competition...

24-02-2003 19:38

Alexander McGee

but of course.

24-02-2003 19:52

Gadget470

I wish our team could have that kind of money

24-02-2003 20:04

WakeZero

Hey, I hear ya!

24-02-2003 23:12

CHSRobotics03

Just a side note.. A good chunk of our money-- I can't say most bc I don't know exact figures.. But quite a bit comes from our own fundraising.. Seperate from GM...We work a total of 13 Ford Field (Detroit Lions Home) Games and Events at a concession stand.. Each student is required to work 9 of those. We also do many pop can drives/ garage sales/ pizza kit sales/ etc..It's a do-able thing for other teams to have two robots.. You just need to organize the fundraisers... Just a thought for everyone...

Alexis

24-02-2003 23:29

Gadget470

By doing fundraisers alone I don't think your team has raised $50,000+ If you have, stellar job. Helps to have a big team like that. The Lions fundraisers are $300 for the whole team each time.. unless we got a raw deal last year.

I know how fundraising goes man, I've done a lot of it.

24-02-2003 23:29

Scott Garver

To answer your fist question we raise the arms with a wench system powered by the window motor. The second stage of the arm rotates using a globe motor. We did not want this section to be forced upward so we used a worm grear to provide the reduction. The 3rd stage, is free for the most part, however it is assisted into position using a gas shock that was not in the picture.

To answer your second question you will just have to come and see us at a regional.

24-02-2003 23:40

Scott Garver

I'm not sure how much exactly we made from each game, however I know it was significantly more than $300. The part that Alexis didn't mention was that the team was running 4 booths for each of the games.

Also, our team only consists of about 20 students.

24-02-2003 23:42

Mark Garver

Actually...

Actually I can't give you exact figures, but I can tell you that the total was between 30,000 and 40,000 raised between the parents and the students and some of the advisors who volenteered their time. It is possible for smaller teams. This year the team only has 19 or 20 students, with about 7 or 8 full time advisors/mentors. For my expereinces with FIRST, I would consider this an average to small team. Good luck on your efforts.

By the way, I know that we made some times 10 times that at a Lions game.

24-02-2003 23:46

Mark Garver

Scott,

You need to toss strategy on the list of things you did this year too. Thanks for helping me with a concept build and convincing others!! Now its time to move on to the Tech team Great job bro

25-02-2003 00:03

Gadget470

I don't doubt your abilities, you have a rather mid-size to large team, capable of raising a lot. And you have community support. I left a team with a very small 'dedicated' force. Very hard to raise money when those two situations coincide (Poor community support and small force).

Anyways, I'll take this up via PM if I decide to further care . Back to the regularly scheduled robot discussion.