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Team 662 students take pride in having an all student built robot
Discussion
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08-02-2004 17:46
JP_1163
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
That's what it's supposed to look like! Wonderful look at inspiration and appreciation in action. Congrats to the students who are putting theory into practice!
09-02-2004 02:43
sanddrag
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
Last year our entire robot was about 98% student built. We bragged about this for the longest time but at the competition the judges weren't very impressed. In fact they seemed kind of disappointed. The reason behind this is that any bunch of kids can get together and make something but what is special about FIRST is the interaction with professionals in the industry.
I believe the judges look for the relatinship between student and mentor to be somewhere around a 1/3 mentor 2/3 student work load.
09-02-2004 04:18
Lord Nerdlinger
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
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Originally Posted by CD47-Bot
Thread created automatically to discuss this image in the Picture Gallery.
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The "student" who's hand is on the bottom right corner needs to wear some anti aging cream... those hands look a bit wrinkly for a high schooler ..
09-02-2004 07:28
Mark Pettit
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
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Originally Posted by sanddrag
Last year our entire robot was about 98% student built. We bragged about this for the longest time but at the competition the judges weren't very impressed. In fact they seemed kind of disappointed. The reason behind this is that any bunch of kids can get together and make something but what is special about FIRST is the interaction with professionals in the industry.
I believe the judges look for the relatinship between student and mentor to be somewhere around a 1/3 mentor 2/3 student work load. |
This year, we put the word out everywhere we could and one of the parents found a neighbor that was a retired ME. We couldn't be happier. We still get to be student-built, but now we're in compliance.
09-02-2004 08:50
Stu Bloom
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
Sorry to do this ... but I really can't believe no-one else beat me to it ...
WHERE'S YOUR SAFETY GLASSES ??
09-02-2004 09:03
Joe Matt
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
Good job, I know how hard it is not the get mentors to just build it all, but remember, it's a collaboration between students and mentors that is what FIRST is about. For every Sparky since the beginning, students have done most of the work, while the mentors have guided us and acted like bumpers in a game of bumper bowling. You can go everywhere within them, but they keep you from failing. Our ONLY time we ever have only mentors working on something is when we weld (no student welding masters here) or we send something to the shop for building. All of our CAD that tells shops what to do is 100% student made.
To sum it up, it's the working between students and mentors that is key to FIRST, and if you go too much on either side, you loose the focus of what FIRST is about, INSPIRATION and RECOGNITION of what scientists and engineers do at work, not inspiration and recognition of how to build a robot.
09-02-2004 09:06
ngreen
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
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Originally Posted by Stu Bloom
Sorry to do this ... but I really can't believe no-one else beat me to it ...
WHERE'S YOUR SAFETY GLASSES ?? |
09-02-2004 09:22
David Kelly
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
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Originally Posted by ngreen
Yeah, we don't take pictures w/o our safety glasses....We have to do retakes.
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09-02-2004 09:37
JVN
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
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Originally Posted by Stu Bloom
Sorry to do this ... but I really can't believe no-one else beat me to it ...
WHERE'S YOUR SAFETY GLASSES ?? |
There are no mentors there to NAG the students about safety and such... this one is 100% student built, and they're proud of it.
Who needs safety glasses?
Every HS kid in America is invincible (until proved otherwise).
09-02-2004 10:33
Crop-Circles
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
My team has shifted dramaticly over the pas three years. My first year, I didn't see the completed robot until our first competition. Last year, however, the robot was over 90% student built, but our robot struggled to move. Having seen both sides, I would say that either a 100% student run team or a 100% mentor run team can be very successful in achieve FIRST's goals. Students on a mentor run team get see exactly what it's like to be an engineer and can still get exited about it. Students on a student run team get more first hand experience on what its like to be an engineer(that is, if they have at least one mentor guiding but not at all building), although it's a little less accurate, and can also get excited. The purpose is to inspire. Whether the robot is student built or mentor built doesn't matter, as long as their still getting kids exited.
Long story short, it's not about who, it's about how.
That said, our team decided this year the "how" is easiest if both students and mentors work on the robot.
As for saftey glasses, their much more fun to wear if you custumize them. 
09-02-2004 10:44
David Kelly
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
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Originally Posted by Crop-Circles
Students on a student run team get more first hand experience on what its like to be an engineer(that is, if they have at least one mentor guiding but not at all building), although it's a little less accurate, and can also get excited.
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09-02-2004 12:21
Amanda Morrison
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
I don't know that I totally agree with either of you. While a student run and student build robot provides engineering experience, like David said, a lot of real-world engineers do a lot of designing and behind-the-scenes work.
But CERTAINLY, it does not mean that these students aren't getting invaluable experience. Keep up the good work (and put on those glasses!) 
09-02-2004 12:39
Joel Glidden
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
A few days ago, I missed when I was putting on my safety glasses and I jammed the earpiece in my eye. 
MORAL: Always wear safety glasses when you're putting on your safety glasses. 
09-02-2004 13:12
sanddrag
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
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Originally Posted by Joel Glidden
A few days ago, I missed when I was putting on my safety glasses and I jammed the earpiece in my eye.
MORAL: Always wear safety glasses when you're putting on your safety glasses. |
We have a rule that we made up that works really well for saftey glasses. If you are within ten feet of a running motor, bolt being cut, or tensioned spring, you are wearing safety glasses. It is the simplest general rule that works the best.
Also, in our shop we see normal (polycarb lense) glasses as acceptable as safety glasses. Unless the student feels unsafe (like standing in a rainshower of chips while cutting aluminum with a blade intended for wood or while cutting wood and making a ton of sawdust) then normal glasses are alright.
Here is our reasoning, In most cases, something will not come from the top, bottom, or sides of your glasses and into your eye. In all of dangerous chip flying and dust cloud experiences I've never gotten anything in my eye wearing normal glasses. Also, it is very difficult to see through both glasses and safety glasses and can cause a headache after a while. Clear vision is more important when using tools because there is greater risk of cutting your finger off than risk of something flying in your eye.
Anyway, whatever you are doing be sure to have some sort of eye protection on. My normal glasses have saved my eyes more than a few times.
09-02-2004 13:41
briholton
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
It is unfortunate to see that people are saying that FIRST does not appreciate the 100% student built robot and believes that there must be engineers/mentors in there building it "for you" and with you. Personally I think this is a great idea (the with part), but FIRST means different things in different parts of the country and different socio-economic areas. Finding willing engineers in some urban areas is nearly impossible, as i suspect it is in some rural areas. Of course a mixture is best in theory - but in real life - in REAL LIFE ENGINEERING (which this is for those of you who say "well REAL engineers...." you make due with what you have - you solve the problem with the boundry conditions that are imposed.
Personally I find it distasteful to see teams with factory built robots that the kids barely see before the competition - this is clearly not the spirit of FIRST - I am not sure who those teams inspire except the corporate folks. On the other hand, I do not believe a robot can be built 100% by high school students - it just can't be. And I can get no argument over that because if you are reading this, then you are part of a group that is not 100% students composed and you are probably getting advice and giving it, so you robot is NOT 100% student "built". I mean, does an engineer have to be right next to you turning the wrench to qualify as participating? I don't think so. Certainly there is a nice midway point that is marvelous, but that point changes depending on the people involved and the situation. Seems to me that if FIRST is really acting the way some of you have outlined, they need to open their eyes to the bigger picture and remember what F.I.R.S.T. stands for.
Oh, and kudos to any team that has a large portion of their robot built by students! I think part of why they are so proud is that they are saying HEY - we built this - not a bunch of professionals that handed it to us already done. And heck, we have been inspired!!!
09-02-2004 14:36
David Kelly
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
A lot of people have VERY big misconseptions about the teams who have very beautifuly engineered and built machines that are sponsored by big manufacturing companies. Name me one team that is basically a "factory built robot" as what you described. I guarentee you cannot do that.
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Originally Posted by briholton
It is unfortunate to see that people are saying that FIRST does not appreciate the 100% student built robot and believes that there must be engineers/mentors in there building it "for you" and with you. Personally I think this is a great idea (the with part), but FIRST means different things in different parts of the country and different socio-economic areas. Finding willing engineers in some urban areas is nearly impossible, as i suspect it is in some rural areas. Of course a mixture is best in theory - but in real life - in REAL LIFE ENGINEERING (which this is for those of you who say "well REAL engineers...." you make due with what you have - you solve the problem with the boundry conditions that are imposed.
Personally I find it distasteful to see teams with factory built robots that the kids barely see before the competition - this is clearly not the spirit of FIRST - I am not sure who those teams inspire except the corporate folks. On the other hand, I do not believe a robot can be built 100% by high school students - it just can't be. And I can get no argument over that because if you are reading this, then you are part of a group that is not 100% students composed and you are probably getting advice and giving it, so you robot is NOT 100% student "built". I mean, does an engineer have to be right next to you turning the wrench to qualify as participating? I don't think so. Certainly there is a nice midway point that is marvelous, but that point changes depending on the people involved and the situation. Seems to me that if FIRST is really acting the way some of you have outlined, they need to open their eyes to the bigger picture and remember what F.I.R.S.T. stands for. Oh, and kudos to any team that has a large portion of their robot built by students! I think part of why they are so proud is that they are saying HEY - we built this - not a bunch of professionals that handed it to us already done. And heck, we have been inspired!!! |
09-02-2004 14:45
Joe Matt
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
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Originally Posted by David Kelly
Name me one team that is basically a "factory built robot" as what you described. I guarentee you cannot do that.
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09-02-2004 14:54
David Kelly
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
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Originally Posted by JosephM
I can name a few that seem very very well done that, to me, still has that factory fresh new car smell to them. But will I? No. Why? This topic has been beaten to death before, and we should stop it from happening again. The only thing this does is hurt people's feelings and cause problems between teams that shouldn't be there.
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Please dont accuse or say how a robot is built unless you know what really happens and you have facts.
09-02-2004 15:52
Stu Bloom
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
Woah ... calm down Dave. I didn't see any specific accusations. And I would be willing to bet that, out of almost 1000 active teams, there are at least a small number who do fit this description. In fact I personally know one alumnus of a team who told me that the students don't touch the robot until it is time to drive. My personal preference is that a large percentage of students have significant hands-on robot design/build time, but I'm sure the kids on that team (especially judging from my contact) are also very inspired about futures in engineering and technology ... which is what FIRST is all about.
09-02-2004 16:24
Wetzel
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
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Originally Posted by Stu Bloom
Sorry to do this ... but I really can't believe no-one else beat me to it ...
WHERE'S YOUR SAFETY GLASSES ?? |
I know of a few teams that activly say that they inspire by show the kids what is possible, and adults build the entire thing.
I know of a few teams that activly design with just students.
I know the vast majority of teams falls somewhere in the middle.
I know of a lot of teams that give CAD drawings to a shop, and get back CNC'd parts.
I know a lot of teams that build their robot with nothing more then hand tools.
There are many diffrent teams, and just as many diffrent ways to build a robot.
Wetzel
09-02-2004 18:12
Rickertsen2
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
When I saw this posted yesterday, the first thing i thought was "I wonder how long it will take the flame war to start". I'm surprised it has stayed even the least bit civilixed. I guess everyone is tired of arguing this topic.
09-02-2004 19:06
Aignam
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
You can build an effective robot with hand tools in a basement and be inspired.
You can build an effective robot with expensive machinery at a sponsor's shop with the help of mentors, assisting wherever possible, and be inspired.
FIRST is inspiration. No matter how you do it, you learn something. Stop being silly. Stop making accusations. Go build robots. Now.
09-02-2004 19:21
Rickertsen2
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
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Originally Posted by Aignam
You can build an effective robot with hand tools in a basement and be inspired.
You can build an effective robot with expensive machinery at a sponsor's shop with the help of mentors, assisting wherever possible, and be inspired. FIRST is inspiration. No matter how you do it, you learn something. Stop being silly. Stop making accusations. Go build robots. Now. |
09-02-2004 19:46
Matt Reiland
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
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Originally Posted by David Kelly
I'm sorry but real engineers that work at big manufacturing corporations harldy if ever get to touch a machine. All most of them do is draw and plan out everything for a part and/ or a system. They leave the actual machining to the union and blue collar workers.
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09-02-2004 22:18
briholton
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
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Originally Posted by David Kelly
A lot of people have VERY big misconseptions about the teams who have very beautifuly engineered and built machines that are sponsored by big manufacturing companies. Name me one team that is basically a "factory built robot" as what you described. I guarentee you cannot do that.
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09-02-2004 22:20
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
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Originally Posted by briholton
He said he didn't know because the first time they saw it was when it was uncrated at the regionals.
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I’m personally more favored to the engineering assisted team, but I’m going to put that aside for a second to say this:
I don’t understand why it should matter if your robot is 100% student built, 100% engineer built or somewhere in between. As long as you are Inspired (I word again) FIRST is getting its point and primary goal across.
09-02-2004 23:23
briholton
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
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Originally Posted by D.J. Fluck
How do you know that was the case for his entire team? Maybe he just had bad attendence during the build season or some other reason that he didn't point out. I wouldn't trust the word of one team member on something like that. I don't doubt that something like that exists, but I'd check into it some more before I would go off believing that.
---------- I’m personally more favored to the engineering assisted team, but I’m going to put that aside for a second to say this: I don’t understand why it should matter if your robot is 100% student built, 100% engineer built or somewhere in between. As long as you are Inspired (I word again) FIRST is getting its point and primary goal across. |
i appreciate your wisdom in telling me how to assure my data..... however, i did - i talked to the guys that built it. they agreed that that is what happened. such is life.
10-02-2004 00:53
Amanda Morrison
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
Whereas these types of teams may or may not happen is not the point of this thread, nor is accusing a team or redeeming them. We all know the argument, we've all heard accusations, and we all have differing opinions. Please be tactful and respectful, both to each other, and everyone reading these forums. I'm sorry to spoil any ongoing arguments, but feel free to continue this in a PM.
This is a thread about a team that is building their robot themselves, and it's very commendable. While I agree with DJ, that the inspiration from peers in this program is very important, at the same time a student can gain a sense of pride in craftsmanship and also experience and deal with errors and problems head-on. All the mentors in the world don't do a darn thing if you don't learn anything from them. While maybe it's not ideal to some people, to others it may suit. With engineer mentorship or not, you're seeing a successful FIRST team, and that's all that matters.
10-02-2004 02:26
Ken Leung
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
Please be careful about turning this thread into "should robot be built by 100% student", then to "there shouldn't be engineers on FIRST team building the robot", and finally "the point of FIRST is supposed to be... "
We have been through that thousands of times before, among different topics. Most of them ended up becoming accusation and bashing. There is no need for that. Tell people how successful your team is, demonstrate how it is effective for YOUR school, and learn to listen other's point of view. And understand that no one way will work for every team. OK? ;-)
14-04-2005 07:43
nicholaswheaton
Re: pic: 100% Student Built
In my opinion you should have safety glasses on WHENEVER you are in the pits. It is a FIRST rule. this needs to be reinforced and apply outside competition.
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