26-03-2004 23:08

Max Lobovsky

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

awwww, comon, that really sucks. They totally deserved the hang. They were emphasizing the idea of following the meaning of the rules, not being lawyers, and yet this is the kinda call they give. Now imagine this, the tread breaks, and seperates from the robot somewhere away from the top platform. They would totally have been given the hang. Many robots have left stuff on the field and not had rulings like this.

26-03-2004 23:12

Stephen Kowski

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

plz don't rag on the refs....they do what they think is best...it may not always the way some teams want the rules to be, but that is how they interpret them....

26-03-2004 23:13

SkitzoSmurf

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

No hang for u!

26-03-2004 23:15

Lil' Lavery

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

Team 25 had a belt fall in Annapolis and weren't counted as hanging either.

26-03-2004 23:28

OneAngryDaisy

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

we (341) had our telescoping pole slip out and hit the HDPE. unfortunately, it was on the opposite side of our driver station so our drivers didnt see it and winch up enough.

26-03-2004 23:28

mtaman02

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

they should hang b/c i would call it as them being supported by the chin up bar. i believe the score was changed in they're favor after careful and honest thought. don't remember though.

26-03-2004 23:29

MisterX

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

Ditto that, the refs do there best and I doubt they woudl have called it that way if they felt they honestly could. It is not like they are out their with a persoanl vandetta... they are volunteers so the must be doing it for the love of the game and obviously there is nothgin better then watching a team succeed and win sometimes they have to make some tough calls, and just need to call it as they see it

26-03-2004 23:50

BoyWithCape195

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

i think they should have gotten it (my opinion) becasue they are supported by the bar. Also if you were to remove the belt, it would still be hanging. Its not like its holding the bot up... One again not my call, but just my opinion

27-03-2004 00:05

jonathan lall

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

Oh they definitely deserved to hang, but the robot broke and could not meet the requirements to hang in the (I would definitely say correct) judgement of the refs; the fact that the chin-up device works and almost all of the weight is supported does not mean the robot is hanging. So many people take cheap shots at 'lawyers' here because of incidents like this one and also instances where a team comes up with an idea that others didn't because the others didn't properly read the rules. I hear the University of Western Ontario has a 6-year honours engineering/law school course, that some people here might want to take .

Another aside: In my opinion it is completely acceptable and neccesary to come down on the refs when they make an improper call. It's also important to prevent it from happening again. It is not appropriate to disrespect them or their authority, and I think a lot of people do not see the difference. It has to be kept in mind also that the refs are volunteering in most cases and want to be as fair as possible.

27-03-2004 02:02

Wetzel

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

You are all correct with the fact that the belt is not supporting the robot. However, you forget the rest of the definition of hanging.

Therefor, it does not count. You've got to remember ALL the rules, not just the ones that were discussed a lot.

Wetzel

27-03-2004 13:19

Yan Wang

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

I would say they were hanging... just because that rule quoted above is extremely narrow and should be revised. In any game, molecules (lol) from the robot's wheel/tread will be lost due to friction from the carpet... there will be banging, ramming into the other robots, etc, and some fragments will be left on the field... Just look at all the pieces/flakes under the ramp from last year's stack attack game. So based on that rule above, I would either have to say, no robot can hang, or I could say that if it's a situation like team 41, I'd count them as hanging. So what if a piece falls off. But too late to change that now

27-03-2004 13:27

Jeff Rodriguez

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

If a molecule falls off then it's not part of the robot anymore and doesn't count.
In the picture, the belt is still on the robot and touching the platform, so they don't count.
"Don't be a lawyer", or something like that.

27-03-2004 13:56

white_ChocOlat8

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

Something very similar happened in one of our matches actually, except it was with a chain and the refs called it a no hang. But it was a good call because if I remember correctly the rules state that if any part of your robot is touching.

27-03-2004 14:35

Bob92

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

I say no hang. They are touching. How would you feel if you were the other alliance and they counted. I don't think they deserved it because every other team had to build their robot to withstand hits and things breaking so that they would not be touching the platform.

27-03-2004 16:46

MisterX

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

Atleast all of the refs' decisions are uniform. Every example that has so far been given of similar incidents they were ruled as a no hang as well this one for 41. If half of those were counted and the other half were not then I would be cocerned, however, with all of the judges seeming to agree that it is a no hang, then that must be the rule and not up to interpretation.

27-03-2004 18:29

Max Lobovsky

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

I'm sorry my post, was a little to harsh, i edited it. You guys are right, the refs obviously had no bad intentions in mind, its just that its a little frustrating when it seems like your playing by two different sets of rules. Once again, i apologize.

27-03-2004 19:04

roboticscom13

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

Yes it is frustrating. We were having some operator (me) errors and when we first hung in the real competition our back piece of Lexan with our numbers on it was being held on by one cable tie and was touching the platform and it didn't count as a hang. The refs made the right call because of the specifics of the rules it was just a lil frustrating to lose the round.

27-03-2004 19:12

Katie Reynolds

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

Isn't that the same as saying "well, we had our hook up on the bar but didn't have the time to winch up. But if you removed our wheels we would be hanging."

The belt is still a part of the robot and is touching the platform. Looking at the rules, I agree with the call that it's not hanging.

27-03-2004 21:04

Smrtman5

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

Yea, that match really did suck. We sheared our left drive pully and we managed to get up and hang with only our right side operational. Cruel twist of fate. Luckily we got someone to the machine shop to make another timing pulley from some Al bar stock. In the meantime, we used the dremel to make new notches!
Thanks to whomever took that pic!

28-03-2004 16:16

MOEmaniac

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

I say give them the hang because is that tread really supporting any weight. If they believed that it was then they should have taken the tread away and seen if the robot would have fallen. Its like sayin OMG there a little piece of string that is touching the platform and its supporting weight . They seriously should have been given the hang.

28-03-2004 16:59

kevin.li.rit

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

Looks like that white nub of a piston or something is supporting weight.

28-03-2004 17:23

Jeff Waegelin

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

Based on the way we called the rules at the Detroit Regional, I would say that is not hanging. Yes, the robot is supported entirely by the bar. BUT, a part of the robot is touching the platform. You can try to argue that it's not supporting anything... but it doesn't need to be supporting to discount the hang; just touching.

28-03-2004 17:25

jonathan lall

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

This is strange. It has been established already that, according to the rules, if the robot is still touching it is not hanging. Furthermore, even if that part wasn't in the rules, one could deduce whether the robot was hanging or not with a little common sense:

1) The tread is still part of the robot, being partially attached, and all.
2) The tread is supporting its own weight.

The fact that the tread doesn't weigh very much does not preclude the fact that part of the robot is supported by the ground. Sure it's unfortunate that they couldn't hang, but that doesn't warrant them getting 50 points. For those of you that say you could remove the tread to see if the robot would hang, I implore you to read this again and think about it.

28-03-2004 18:03

Max Lobovsky

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

I understand the wording of the rules and all, it just seems pretty dumb that if they had had a worse malfunction where the tread came completely off, they would have got more points. They should have designed their robot to break more spectaularly, i guess.

28-03-2004 18:06

Wetzel

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

That white nub is completly in the air.


People, will you please read all the posts before throwing in your two cents.
Also, please read the rules before commenting on them

Thank you.
Wetzel

28-03-2004 22:58

Ryan F.

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

No, hang, as the rules state no part of the robot may be touching the ground. Though, if I was on 47 I probably would be feeling very different. Though the rules state it. I'm a little surprised at the ruling. The refs at the midwest regional seemed to be extremely leniant about hanging. I saw a couple of robots hanging on the very inner part of the connecction between the vertical and horizontal bar, which was ruled illegal in other regionals.

29-03-2004 23:25

Joe Ross

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

What if the belt was no longer attached to the robot in any way, but just lying on the platform. Then would you count them as hanging?

29-03-2004 23:33

Bill Gold

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

I would say, yes that would count as hanging. If the timing belt was lying on the carpet or on the platform, in no way attached or semi-attached to the robot, this hang would be counted. If portions of your robot unintentionally detach from your robot they are not considered parts of your robot anymore for the scoring of the match (like light covers from last year, etc.). But in this case, the tread is still in the robot and touching the 1’ tall step. Last year teams were deemed not on the HDPE platform because a string or zip-tie was touching the grating. To me this seems perfectly consistent with FIRST’s past interpretations / enforcements of rules.

30-03-2004 11:30

KenWittlief

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

Joe Ross has a good point - the rules as written are already lenient and forgiving - if a part falls off your bot completely (say a piece of foam bumper somewhere on the field) it could be agrued that your bot is not 'hanging' because of piece of it is lying on the floor in the middle of the field - therefor your WHOLE bot is not hanging - but the rules do not go to that extreem

the reason the bot in the photo is not hanging is the belt is part of the bot and its supported by the floor - that part is broken though, right? ok - so what if an arm broke and was supported by the floor? what if a cable broke on one side and two wheels were in the air and two were on the floor - you could argue that if the bot was lifted high enough the remaining cable would support it

but that IS the nature of the challege - to get your WHOLE bot up in the air, not just the working parts, the broken parts too - if its still attached then no hang.

BTW something similar happened last year - a team put a little flag on their bot so they could see it on the other side of the ramp - at the end of the match the bot was ontop of the ramp, but the little flag was drooped over and touching the top of the side railing - no 50 points for them either.

30-03-2004 16:58

MOEmaniac

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

I understand the rules completely and i respect them but it just seems like its robbing the team of the pride that it gets for getting those 50 pts. and the hang.

30-03-2004 17:08

KenWittlief

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

this is FIRST - not T-ball :^)

30-03-2004 17:31

Bill Gold

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

Rules are rules, not matter how dumb they may be. They should always be enforced to the fullest, or there shouldn’t be rules governing certain actions that won’t be enforced. In hockey when a player accidentally goes offsides, they don’t argue the enforcement of the rule, they just feel that they hadn’t crossed the blue line before the puck. They broke by accident and were touching the ground while in their hanging position. The rules say that this scenario doesn’t count for 50 points. It’s too bad that they broke causing them not to score 50 points, but rules are rules. Get over it and move on to your next competition and keep this kind of enforcement of rules in mind when you’re designing your robot next year.

<edit>
IMHO, if you truly completely understood and respected the rules you wouldn’t feel that they were robbed. It’s sad. It’s tough. But if it were my team who wasn’t counted as hanging because of a problem like this, I wouldn’t be upset about the enforcement of the rules one bit.
</edit>

-Bill

30-03-2004 17:41

jonathan lall

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

If something falls off a robot, it is no longer part of that robot. Strictly according to the rules' wording (but not their spirit), this is not the case, as a robot is defined.

On the other hand, since parts may not detach from the robot on purpose (also in the rules), it is safe to say the only reason something should detach is because of damage. Thus, the detached component becomes debris and therefore no longer part of the robot. FIRST has always played and ruled this way (as far as I can remember), and this is also dictated by common sense. If a robot loses a tiny part of its tread, that tread becomes debris. Heck, the distinction between a molecule of rubber on the ground and an arm that broke off from wear and tear cannot be made. If we say a detached component is still part of the robot and also needs to hang, then we are saying those pieces of tread and loose metal that fall off do too.

30-03-2004 18:20

Elgin Clock

Re: pic: YMTC: Is 41 hanging?

By the end of this competition where the 41 bot was pictured (NYC) we had a plate full of those mysterious robot parts that were left on the field.

The strangest things I saw on that plate were a screwdriver, and a broken off drill bit.

Then there was a lot of screws, pieces of the lights, a little piece of 80-20, a lot of chain links and other various items.