23-04-2004 10:57

Andy Baker

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

I absolutely love this picture. Thanks to TechnoKat Lee Hinze for taking it. There are so many things going on here.

1. The entire field is captured in the picture
2. Many important people are around the field. You can see Dave Ferrera (blue/white Hawaiian shirt), Kenny A, Ed Sparks, Jim Zontag, Dan Green, and Paul Copioli, Mark Breadner, Hut Snow, Tim from 65.
3. The excitement of our cheering section is captured
4. The 716/45 drive team is going crazy.

... and most importantly, look at the two blonde guys in the team 45 drivers station hugging each other. The student with his back to us (Austin) is hugging his dad (Delphi engineer Steve Butler). That look of pure happiness on Steve's face is priceless.

That was quite a moment.

Andy B.

23-04-2004 11:16

Chris Hibner

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

I knew you guys would do it. In this thread http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...82&postcount=9 I mentioned that I thought you guys would be the highest scoring robot of the year. I thought you had it at Midwest. I'm glad you did it because I had some side action going on that you would pull it off. You cut the timing a little too close for comfort, though.

I also want to give a little credit here to Ken Patton for his "Finger and Thumb" prediction. He hit the nail on the head. Take that, Paul! (ha ha)

-Chris

23-04-2004 12:23

Alan Anderson

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

I captured a view of some of Team 45 cheering in the stands immediately afterwards.

23-04-2004 13:44

Ben Lauer

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

I am pround to say that I help with the real time scoring on the blue side. Thats me sitting 2 seats to the right of the IFI person.

24-04-2004 01:39

generalbrando

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

That was my favorite match. I don't care how much people dislike certain aspects of the game this year. The simple fact is that it was so much fun to watch and play. Matches like this made me glad I gave up my Saturday to sit at the computer.

Great job guys.

26-04-2004 12:33

Ken Patton

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

ummm, there was a meeting of the "2 and out" club going on at the far right side. Now I know why Andy didn't come down and talk to us.

Ken

P.S. thumbs up Paul!

26-04-2004 12:37

Paul Copioli

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

Patton,

You weasel! Your finger and thumb scenario did not pan out. Never once did you say a thumb was a robot playing defense on the field. I still claim that 2 TechnoKat like robots would beat a Beatty & Martian (1 offense + 1 defense) team. We may never know.

26-04-2004 13:10

Chris Hibner

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

Here's how I remember the conversation.

Ken: "The winning alliance at nationals will consist of a finger and a thumb."
Chris: "huh?"
Ken: "There will be one offensive robot (the finger), and one strong defensive robot (the thumb) that will keep the other team from scoring."
Chris: "Sounds reasonable."
Paul: "No way. A finger and a thumb could never beat two great offensive machines."
Ken: "I'm just saying, the alliance that wins the championship will consist of a good finger, and a good thumb."
Paul: "Okay, you're on!"

Then I remember something about singing karaoke in Atlanta. What song did you choose, Paul?

26-04-2004 13:21

Ken Patton

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

You know Chris, Paul is partially right on this one - I was hoping he might just let me get away with this. He knows that my ideal thumb (and the one I thought would win it all) was a pole-dominator in the style of 190,930,330,237. So, he is <gulp> kind of correct in his observation that I'm being a weasel.

But, Paul, there is no doubt that there was a thumb on the field.

Ken Patton
Team 65
The Weasel Brigade

26-04-2004 13:40

Paul Copioli

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

Ken,

Very true. However, there were not two fingers on the opposing alliance. My arguement is that a defender trying to stop two offensive robots will get beat very severely. Example: Team 33 and Team 45 (or 303,461,469,1241,93) both have their robots full of balls. O.K. defender, what do you do? Try to stop both and you will stop neither. Try to stop one and the other will score unstopped. Chances are the defender will lose. An off season competition will prove me right ... I know it!

-Paul

26-04-2004 13:47

JVN

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

Okay for your consideration,
45 + 33 vs. 494 + 60.

494 plays big D on those pesky technokittens. Shuts them down. 33 goes nuts on offense. 60 does the same. 494 and 60 both hang.

Who wins?
Finger + Thumb.

I gotta agree with Ken on this one Paul.
A more versatile alliance can take down a strictly offensive alliance. Especially if they have the magic hanging capability.

The defensive robot doesn't have to stop both offensive robots. Just one of them. They only need to slow the offensive alliance down enough so that their partner can outscore them.

John

26-04-2004 14:13

Paul Copioli

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

John,

Let me ask you this: did 494 completely shut down 45? No. And that was when they were only worrying about one robot. Chances are that 494 (or the defensive robot of your choice) will only slow down one of the offensive robots. If you don't like the 33 & 45 matching, how about 45 & 60? 60 and 45 doing all offense while 494 is trying to stop them. When 494 goes to hang so does 60, leaving 45 to cap. If 494 does the defense thing on the stationary, then 60 will defense the defense leaving 45 to cap.

The bottom line is that 494 had to stop 45 from capping, because they could not stop them from getting enough small balls (11 - 13). Add another robot that concentrates, let's say, on the movable goal and caps it. The defensive robot doesn't have a prayer. I am not saying defense doesn't play a part, but 2 robots that PRIMARILY play offense (2 fingers) will beat the finger and the thumb.

Back to the point: Our bet was that a POLE DOMINATOR paired with an offense oriented robot would win. That did not happen. The fact that a defensive robot on the floor is now called a thumb is beyond the scope of the original definition.

However, given this new definition I still say 2 fingers will beat a finger and the "new" thumb.

26-04-2004 14:15

Andy Grady

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

I would say that the chances of beating a 33 and 45 aliance are not very good. Two offensive robots of that caliber are hard to offset by defense no matter who you have as a partner. However...it is very possible. Instead of focusing on a robot in particular, your best bet more than likely would be to sit yourself in front of the goal to prevent one of those robots from scoring. Of course that is a difficult task to do with the 45 arm, but it is your best bet. If you are successful in stopping a doubler, and your partner goes unscathed on the other side, scoring, capping, and hanging...you should be able to walk away from the contest with a victory. Of course, there are alot of variables, and there are alot of counter defenses to what I just said....thats what made this years game so great.

26-04-2004 14:25

Paul Copioli

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

Hey Andy,

Welcome to the debate. I'm glad there is someone on my side of the argument. I thought I was all alone.

A little history: Ken and I were on the MidWest team for the game design committee this year (we had no idea what the game was, we just came up with our ideal game and submitted it along with rules, etc.). Our big discussion was designing a game that a finger and a thumb could not dominate (the nomenclature came from Verbrugge .. picture a thumb squeezing the life out of the game). We felt that the 2003 game could be dominated by a finger and a thumb and wanted to avoid that at all costs.

It came as no surprise when the game was revealed Ken and I started debating if the thumb could dominate. His idea was that a bar dominator, aka thumb, along with a good offensive robot would win it all. The story grows from there, but that is how it all started.

26-04-2004 14:38

Andy Grady

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

I think in the case of what you state here, the bar dominator and offensive bot could do well...but, as we found out there was an extreme flaw to that idea of strategy. What ended up happening in the case of bar domination / offensive bot, is that the offensive bot would end up getting picked on by a good defensive robot. Good case would be with WPI. WPI could hang in autonomous mode...which in itself was quite impressive. However, everytime they did so, they left their partner high and dry with no bodyguard for protection. Any robot that hung from the outset, would leave its partner to get tooled by a good defensive robot, thus resulting in a loss if the defenders partner was a high caliber offensive robot. I dont necessarily think two offensive robots was the answer either. I feel that actually the answer was machine specific. Some robots would work perfect with others, and probably be close to unbeatable. This year, more than any other...there was no "Beatty move", which is kinda ironic considering Beatty won.

26-04-2004 14:39

Joel J

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

After watching the national competition this year, I have a vision of 716 + 233 vs. any two offensive robots. the 716 + 233 monster would play defense on the offensive machines for the entire match, then with 10-15 seconds remaining, they would dash for the hang. They will have at least 130 points, and their offensive opponents will end up with at most 50.

However, when I initially thought of this, I forgot to factor in the possibilty of the offensive machines hanging. Or the offensive machines being able to, themselves, play defense. A strictly defensive alliance has to basically rely on the fact that they can both hang and at most, only one of their opponents can. 233 + 716 has a good chance of taking out a 33 + 45 alliance, but only if they do it right.

To be honest, I would feel much more comfortable as part of the 33 + 45 alliance, because you do not necessarily need a strong(er) robot to play very good defense.

Now, if the alliance has one defensive and one offensive robot, then the chances of them taking out two offensive machines are very high. Look at the last match of the championship. 494 diverted their opponent's attention away from 71, allowing 71 an enormous amount of breathing room to rack up their score.

(ohh.. i just read john's example)

I think 33 + 45 would win (the alliance, not the assumed form of play); it would just require 33 to assume a "defensive" role, which I'm sure they are capable of. 33 would prevent 494 from disabling 45. 45 then gets free roam to fill their goal with 5 point balls and cap it: 170 points. 60 would put about 14 balls into their goal, cap, then hang. 190 points? No. 45 would cap their goal earlier allowing them to go over and uncap 60's goal. 120 points for the 60 alliance. At this point 494 would perhaps get away and attempt to uncap 45's goal. If they succeed, 45's score drops to 85 points. But 33 should be able to prevent the uncapping. If 33 hangs while 494 is decapping, then their (33+45's) score jumps up to 135. If 494 decides not to uncap 45's goal and instead goes for the hang, then their alliance's score would jump to back to 170. The end result: a tie. Eek. Its getting hairy now. But looking back at this possible outcome, a 33 + 45 alliance has more room to beat a 60 + 494 alliance.

26-04-2004 14:45

Andy Grady

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

The wild card maneuver...

Team 60, with its sheer capping speed, caps the opponents goal at the very begining of the match, rendering allllll those little balls that 33 and 45 can get, useless until they can manage to pull the ball out of the stationary goal....not an easy feat may I add.

26-04-2004 14:46

Paul Copioli

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

My point is: Nobody is dominating the match.

Good game this year.

26-04-2004 14:50

Joel J

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

Makes it easier for 45. They deliver their balls to their HP just the same, then backs up and uncaps their goal. They have a big ball right there. It would not be hard to imagine that 45 would have already had a big ball. They could just as easily do a mirror move (reminded of 67 + 469 in the Grand Semifinals) and cap 60's goal, pushing the big ball waaaay down. That would take 60 a little bit of time to get out. Or, more likely, 45 would just drop the ball they picked up and use the ball placed on their stationary goal. 60 would diddle around trying to pick up the big ball from the ground, then move on to corralling, while 45 is proceeding as planned: big ball in hand, and a slew of small balls to boot. Eh?

26-04-2004 14:51

Joel J

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

Ok.

26-04-2004 14:53

Joe Ross

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

What happens when 494 and 60 go to hang? 45 either caps their own goal, or uncaps 60's (depending on what was more adventageous) and 33 hangs.

26-04-2004 14:58

Andy Grady

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

I've said it before, I'll say it again...best game since 2000. The beauty about this game? The awsome strategy discussions you can have like the current one we have going on, where there is no right or wrong answer...just alot of well thought out debate. Once again, three cheers for FIRST on this one.

26-04-2004 15:36

Alan Anderson

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

As it turns out, the KatsKlaw arm is very capable of pulling a ball from the stationary goal. Once it has a multiplier ball securely held, the roller-gripper design does not let go until commanded to, and the pneumatic lift on the arm gives it a lot more pulling power than you might think.

If the stationary goal does end up being taken out of commission by a well-stuffed multiplier, don't count out the mobile goal. Team 1272 was consistent in filling it to the brim and capping it. The mobile goal was never a real factor in 45's strategy, which arguably led to a few of the TechnoKats' losses.

26-04-2004 16:35

AmyPrib

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

Ahhh yessss, they could do that, and although I don't recall their sheer capping speed, they may not be able to complete it without several 10pt goaltending penalties. Either way, we've got plenty of strategies up our sleeve. Our little balls will never be useless...
Besides, who ever said they would dominate the 2x ball before us? I think they may have just wasted their 2x ball.............

26-04-2004 16:45

Gene F

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

Are there 23 balls in that goal? With only one bot hanging, a score of 230 to 70 and four bals in the opponents goal, The only way to get 230 is 23 balls in the goal!. Am I missing something, I didn't think that many would fit?

26-04-2004 16:54

Joe Ross

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

No, only 18. That is an error in the real time scoring. The correct score was 230 to 20, with 1 of blue robot's hanging.

BTW, it sure is a lot easier to score a lot of points when both opponents on on their side

26-04-2004 16:57

Alan Anderson

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

You're missing only one thing: the final score was actually 230 to 20. Red was not hanging; one robot was tipped over near the blue mobile goal, and the other was arm-wrestling with KatsKlaw trying to do something about the capped stationary goal. The score of 70 showed briefly at the end of the match, but it was in error.

26-04-2004 17:03

JVN

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

I'll give you that one.

John

26-04-2004 17:22

Ken Patton

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

Paul, Paul, Paul....

You KNOW the guy on the floor can be a thumb. It is NOT beyond the original definition. No chance.

It is, however, beyond the intent of the bet. I thought a pole dominator would make it. That didn't happen (though I was rooting for 330 in Archimedes - they got tipped off the platform before hanging in the semis I think...)

We don't need to create new scenarios - we watched the finals. A Beast-of-all-trades allied with a hanging thumb was the winner. Agreed?

And nobody wins the bet cause we were both wrong....

Ken

26-04-2004 17:40

Alaina

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

Beach Bots tipped over.

26-04-2004 18:10

Greg Ross

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

230 to 70 was the unofficial real-time score. The final score was 230 to 20. The hanging robot was from the blue alliance. (And it hurts every time I look at this thread, because that's our 'bot lying on its side there in front of the red platform.)

[edit]
Oops. I forgot to check to see if there were already any responses to Gene's post.
[/edit]

27-04-2004 00:04

dlavery

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

Given that background, maybe we should all keep this in mind for next year's game...





-dave

27-04-2004 03:28

Jay Lundy

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

I was thinking a lot about how to beat 45 + 33 vs us + another team before nationals. I came to the conclusion that playing defense to stop them from herding wouldn't work very well. It might slow them down a little but if 494 is over there harassing 45 + 33, the two of them together can still herd faster than 60/254 alone on their side of the field.

I thought about blocking the ball chutes with mobile goals, but it's a risky strategy. At the beginning of the match the 60/254 + 494 alliance blocks both corralls with the 2 mobile goals. Then they spend the rest of the match preventing 45 and 33 from latching onto the goals to move them out of the way so they can dump. Then with 20 seconds left 254/60 runs to hang. I didn't have a lot of confindence in this strategy though.

I thought about capping 45's stationary goal at the beginning then keeping their mobile goal away from their human players, but I was pretty sure 45's arm could pull the ball out.

The strategy that I determined was the best was to try to control all the 2x balls for the entire match. In the beginning of the match 254 starts on the same side as 45 and we run our 1 ball and turn autonomous, triggering only our ball drop and placing ourselves between 45 and the mobile goal at the end of autonomous. Once autonomous is over, we grab the 2x ball and run to our side of the field, where we drop it on the ground. Then we run over and grab the 2x ball off the other mobile goal and hold on to it. Then we poke the 2x ball in the center of the field towards our side of the field.

From there, I am pretty confident we could prevent 45 from picking a 2x ball off the ground. Those balls get knocked around very easily and as soon as we see 45 going for a 2x ball we just play keep-away with them by repeatedly running into whatever 2x ball they are going for. Once all the 2x balls are on our side, we either herd unguarded while 45 and 33 herd with 494 harassing, or 45 spends the whole match going for a 2x ball while we defend and 33 herds with 494 playing defense on them. Either way the 45+33 alliance would end up with more small balls, but I doubt they could get more than twice as many as 254+494. At the end of the match 254 caps their goal and holds on until the last second. 33 tries to hang but is defended by 494.

A bonus is if our partner can block 33 from tripping their balls in autonomous, since I'm confident we could stop 45 from tripping.

End result:
No robots hanging
254/60 + 494: 7 balls + cap = 70 points
45 + 33: 13 balls = 65 points

It would definately not be an easy match, but that's the strategy I would have tried had we needed to play 45 + 33.

27-04-2004 09:16

Chris Hibner

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

But I wanna see someone sing!

Seriously, though. I missed the part of the conversation in which the thumb was defined as a defender of the bar. All I heard is that the thumb played good defense. Sorry about stirring this whole thing up (okay, I'm not that sorry).

27-04-2004 10:50

Paul Copioli

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

If we both lost the bet, doesn't that mean we have to sing a duet?

27-04-2004 11:13

Chris Hibner

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

As long as it's something like "Islands in the Stream".

27-04-2004 12:05

Ken Patton

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

Oh no you don't. There will be no singing today (or tomorrow). Move along, theres nothing to do here....

27-04-2004 12:09

Ken Patton

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

THATS not in the kit of parts! Maybe on Mars.

Hmmm, lots of thumbs on Mars....

Ken

27-04-2004 14:16

JVN

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

You doin okay Ken?
*eyes Patton warily*

Hang in there man, whatever happens, we'll all get through it together.

John

27-04-2004 14:35

Zzyzx

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

Congratulations to the winning teams. A very impressive score to get in this year's challenging game. Maybe next year there will be a game were the points actually given are similar to those shown on the animated instructional video. Well...probubly that will never happen, but congatulations none the less!

27-04-2004 16:57

Ryan F.

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

So we can count on 9 team alliances next year....eight fingers and a thumb

I'll throw my two cents in here...with agreeing that two offensive robots will beat out a half/half offense/defense pair. As stated before...one defensive robot can not watch two offensive robots. Also, a lot of the offensive functions are going to be great for defense. Take for instance those this year who could cap....that was as good of defense as anything with being able to un-cap your opponents goals.

27-04-2004 18:49

Lil' Lavery

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

Who says they wont clone me, chop off my hands, stitch on 4 extra thumbs, and put them in the kit of parts for next year?

27-04-2004 18:58

Joe Ross

Re: pic: 230 pt. celebration

I think he meant 4 vs 4 vs 1 thumb. Depending on the size of your regional, you would get one or two matches as the thumb, and the rest as fingers. For the elims, each alliance would also have a thumb.