22-08-2005 08:35

phrontist

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

So I take it you got the thumb-joysticks to work? Do you have a pinout?

It's quite a neat hack, though I've never been fond of those controllers...

22-08-2005 08:46

Rohan_DHS

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Thats too cool! Any diagrams (aka pinouts, like phrontist said)?

Also, did you get the vibration thing working too lol?

22-08-2005 09:31

Ian Curtis

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

How do you get good control with the analog sticks? I believe the resistors in the sticks themselves are 10k Ohm and joysticks have 100k ohm resistors.

22-08-2005 09:39

Bcahn836

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Where you able to add any function to the buttons, for example using R1 R2 L1 L2 for say arm controls?

22-08-2005 10:48

Joe J.

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

I don't know all the details they just let me drive it. I've passed along your questions to the guys who built it.

We're working on it.

Yes they put the arm controls on the front trigger link buttons
arm up is on the top right
arm down is on bottom right
arm extend is on the top left
arm retract is on the bottom left
Tetra wacker is the circle button
Dumptruck is the triangle button
Tank drive on the joysticks

22-08-2005 10:54

Bcahn836

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

How difficult is it to drive with the ps2 controller, and i have to ask the obvious question is it like playing a video game? What are the characteristics of the controller?

22-08-2005 10:58

Joe J.

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

For one person to drive its alot easier to drive with the PS2 controller, The robots alot more responsive as well. The only problem is after you go backwards and release the joysticks it tends to keep rolling backwards but they working on it.

22-08-2005 11:09

Tazlikesrobots

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Very cool!

22-08-2005 11:48

GhostInTheShell

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

ok, i'm one of team 862 electronics monkeys who worked on this, i'm working out some more bugs and will have plans and/or schematics soon

but it works like this
a PIC16f688 reads the ps2 controller data (yes, no controller mods, that controller is an unmodified commercial controller i bought used like 2 weeks ago)
it decodes the signal and sends the info to some Digipots (maxim-dallas copyrighted term) that have 100k impeadence (theyre 100kpots like in joysticks) they contol everything

you have to change youyr software though if u wanna use ours, it uses 1 joy stick port

22-08-2005 11:52

GhostInTheShell

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

also rohan_dhs, we are working on the rumble feature currently, it needs pwm1 to be clear though, it uses the feedback lights for pwm1 to tell the pic that "holy crap we did sompthing wrong" like if we hit sompthing or we have a malfunction

22-08-2005 12:26

mechanicalbrain

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

I doubt you will get the rumble feature working. I don't know all the mechanics but the chances are they use a buzzer. And since a buzzer is a motor the RC should not output enough power for it to run. Nice work though. I'm looking at making custom controls this year and i like to see success.

22-08-2005 13:04

JoeXIII'007

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Pretty darn cool. I saw you guys work on it but never knew you got it to work. Fantastic.

-Joe

22-08-2005 13:15

Sparks333

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

I'm guessing that typical button-mashing is a definite no-no?
Way cool, man. Keep it up.

Sparks

22-08-2005 13:19

Rohan_DHS

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

wow thats trés cool let us know if/when you guys get that working

22-08-2005 13:57

[527]phil

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

The micro controller that I'm using for my robo one has 9 pins for connecting a playstation controller. I hope to eventually incorporate a wireless controller so it'll be like rockem sockem robots, only these robots cost a lot more.

22-08-2005 14:10

Mike

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

From what I saw when I ripped apart an old controller of mine, they're just little DC motors with... weight kinda things on them that when they spin throw the controller off balance, making it rumble.

22-08-2005 14:47

mechanicalbrain

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Exactly thats what buzzers essentially are and I'm thinking you wont get the RC to power it. There is a rule on what you can connect i think that lighted switches is a NoNo also. I use a double switch and power the lights on a battery to get around the rule without breaking it. I don't think you can do anything like that with the buzzer. However if you DO get it working give me a mail and some instructions because I would love to incorporate a buzzer into our controls.

22-08-2005 14:58

Alan Anderson

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

The "rumble" in a videogame controller isn't a buzzer. It's basically the same thing as the "vibrate" in a cell phone or pager: a tiny little motor with an off-center weight. The LED drivers on the OI are limited to 10 milliamps, and might be capable of running a typical 40ma pager motor if they were connected together.

22-08-2005 15:23

Don Wright

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Very nice job.

Please don't take my question as any kind of attack or jab at your accomplishment. I think what you have done is awesome. But, is it legal? I thought I remember there being a rule of some sort not allowing any kind of computer or processor between the driver and the RC. With the PIC in-line, would this violate a rule?

Just curious. If it doesn't, and if somebody could make a nice, semi-universal PS2 or USB to digipots and switch adapter, it would open up the world of cool controllers to teams.

22-08-2005 15:44

Billfred

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Well, good question. Here's the rule.

I have to admit, even I forgot about the part about portable computing devices connected to the joystick ports.

This then brings about the question of what exactly they meant by the rule. Did they mean to explicitly ban everything but pots and switches and the things they're housed in, or was the rule intended to block things like PDAs and laptops (which the average guy on the street would consider a portable computing device)?

In any event, nice work.

22-08-2005 16:14

Rickertsen2

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Where did you get a mating connector for the controller. An extension cable?

22-08-2005 16:18

Bcahn836

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

May be these can help?
Link 1
Link 2

22-08-2005 16:48

Rickertsen2

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

PS2 controllers use a fairly simple synchronous serial protocol.
here is some info on the PS1 interface:http://www.gamesx.com/controldata/psxcont/psxcont.htm

from what i understand the PS2 controllers are the same electrically with only very minor changes in the protocol.

There was a pretty good article in the June 2003 Nuts and Volts on using PS controllers

22-08-2005 16:52

Rohan_DHS

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

LOL, nice seal of approval, Billfred

22-08-2005 17:08

Not2B

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Yeah - me and another mentor wondered the same thing. In fact, from what I can tell (being a mechanical kind of guy anyway), it's not legal. So it went a little something like this (paraphrased for humor of course...)

Mentors: Hey, I don't think that's legal.
Students: But it's gonna be cool
Mentors: Really - look at rule R69
Students: But it might change... we should ask FIRST
Mentors: Don't bet on it
Students: Yeah... it's gonna be cool... we should do it
Mentors: Oh fine - but we are still going to do a regular control for next year
Students: YEAH - lets do it
Mentors: I have no idea how or if that's going to work
Students: Look - it's working
Mentors: Holy ^#&*@#* - How'd ya do that?

So... they went on their merry way.
- They didn't have a programmer for the pic
-- So they made their own
- They didn't have software to download the program into the pic
-- So they wrote their own
- The robot was not around, going to demos
-- They followed the robot to a weekend demo, and worked out the bugs in the middle of a festival (Thanks 470).

22-08-2005 17:20

Adam Richards

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

I can see your team either getting the device banned or getting an Innovation in Control award every regional you stop at...

22-08-2005 17:21

Mr. Lim

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Loving this thread!

1) Most of the veteran teams won't touch the right-hand only beige joysticks that have been included in the kit for the past few years. The problems with broken axes, poor range, inconsistent centering, etc etc are well known.

2) Veteran teams lucky enough to stockpile those CH flightsticks from many years ago love them. They're getting extremely rare now, and I think most of us realize aren't may seasons left in them.

3) What would it take to get to IFI to integrate one of your PS2 dongles right into the OI next year? or the year after? Would you be willing to give up the dongle design in the spirit of improving FIRST as a whole?

22-08-2005 17:32

Joe J.

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Yeah they did an awsome job. It worked right the first time we tried it, only needed minor tweaking

22-08-2005 21:25

jakep

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Hey everyone, I am one of the three students that worked on the PS2 adapter.

We used a 16f688 PIC chip and two dual pot digital potentiometers from Maxim. The device currently breaks the rules of official competition because it uses an external power source (9 volt battery). We are working on drawing power from the OI using the LED driver pins, since the circuit only draws around 6 miliamps of current. Since we got the beta working this weekend, we are now taking steps to finalize the design. We are working on soldering it together more permanently, so that you won't have to worry about wires, etc. coming loose on our messy breadboard. Once it's put together, we will be adding just a few more things, such as the drawing OI power thing. Once that's done, we will be posting up our PIC source code and schematics so other teams can build this device for themselves. It uses a conventional PS2 controller, any analog one will do, and it fully controls all the functions of our robot. (We used to use 3 joysticks for this.) It actually drives better this way because you can coordinate your actions more precisely without a second driver. (Sorry copilots )

The outputs are the 4 analog ones directly to the OI. Analog input 1/2 are the tank drive for the main robot. While 3/4 each send 4 digital inputs. This was done because we didn't have enough pins to use, so we had send multiple digital signals over analog.

Even if we won't get to use it in competition, it was still a fun project to work on, and we all learned a lot about PIC programming (we built our own programmer since we were on a budget) and electronics in general (Our software team did most of the electronics o_O).


BTW: The PS2 controller in the picture is not modified in any way, the wires are sticking out because it's a used controller. (Which is also why the trim is messed up and the robot tends to go backwards when not touching the sticks at times)

22-08-2005 22:43

Not2B

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Hey Jake (or anyone else) - I heard that you can damage the OI if you draw too much current from it. Is that true? How much? Just want to keep that in mind before we start to blow up OIs.

22-08-2005 22:46

GhostInTheShell

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

the rumble motor will work, it has to me a signal read by the PIC and sent oto the PS2 controller on the command line (data to the controller)

22-08-2005 22:47

GhostInTheShell

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

yes u can blow the internal fuses by drawing too much current, we are gonna put an adapter that goes between the power port and the OI

22-08-2005 22:49

mechanicalbrain

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

If you can go for it but I'm not sure you can get the necessary power. Also can the game ports output signals?

22-08-2005 22:58

GhostInTheShell

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

heres the schematic for our current one

22-08-2005 23:45

Al Skierkiewicz

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

I think the rule is fairly clear that something as powerful as a laptop or PDA is the target of the rule. A dedicated controller feeding digipots and with no intelligence otherwise should be allowed.
The output current on the LED outputs is current limited to 10ma, but I wouldn't want to depend on using two of them in parallel to get higher current. All it would take is a few startup/init where one of the outputs comes on before the other and you would be dumping power supply current from one output to the other. Two diodes (one in series with each output) might work but you would have a voltage drop in the diodes that would be 0.6 volts below the OI 5 volt rail. Don't forget that the majority of the current demand occurs at the switching point of the proc so a simple averaging meter might be too slow to respond for accuracy. Your 6 ma might actually be close to current limit. You might be able to supply the digipots from one output and the proc from another and stay inside a safe current area. A lot of testing will tell for sure. Nice solution, I like the way you guys work and think.

23-08-2005 00:55

emarion

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

I am one of the three main people working on the PS2 controller project. I believe Derek emailed First and asked about the controller being a "Portable computing devices" and First said that it was okay, but that of course the rules might be different in the next game. This is all assuming that the circuit can grab power from the OI, I believe.

I coded the asm on the pic chip (about 250 lines I believe), and will post it as soon as I completely fix it up. The circuit connects one of the digital outs (aux I believe) directly to ground. Because it is impossible for the normal joysticks to do this (they only uses different digital outs), the software on the robot should be able to figure out if a normal joystick or the PS2 adapter are plugged in, without requiring a physical switch on the OI or the robot to be programmed in only one mode. This would possibly allow hot-plugging of what is controlling the robot, assuming that one disables the robot when changing the cords.

So far if the PS2 controller is not pluged in to the circuit, or if it is not in analog mode, the circuit will output "nothing" to the OI (i.e. don't move the wheels or do anything). Hopefully in the future the circuit will be able to automatically put the PS2 controller in analog mode, like some PS2 games. This way the driver won't have to hit the "analog" button every time they turn on the OI.

The two digipots are ds1267's. Each digipot IC contains two 256-step digital potentiometers. The microcontroller is a pic16f688. Basically, the PS2 sends all its data digitally in serial to the microcontroller over one pin. This is how even if the PS2 controller uses 10k pots (which I'm not sure about) the circuit would still output using the correct 100k pots. L1, L2, R1, R2, the diamond, the circle, and if the driver is pressing down on the joysticks are sent from the PS2 controller to the OI. This is done by sending these eight digital inputs over two analogs. This is done by setting the 4 most signifigant bits of each analog (aux and wheel) to the correct value, and setting the least signifigant bits to 0111. This allows the "value" of the analog to vary by +8/-7, and have it all still work. The analogs "x" and "y" are used for the y value of the left and right PS2 joystick, respectively.

23-08-2005 09:12

jrukes

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

emarion,

Congratulations to your team on a great addition to the OI! I'm very impressed that you created your own programmer and wrote your own downloader. That info could be very useful for teams interested in starting to use PICs.

You mentioned that you'd like to have the joystick automatically go into "analog" mode. Here are the commands you'll need.
0x01, 0x43, 0x00, 0x01, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00 //enter config mode
0x01, 0x44, 0x00, 0x01, 0x03, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00 // set to analog mode and lock out the mode button
0x01, 0x43, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00 //exit config mode

***Note: All of the values are in hexadecimal format.

Good luck,
Jason

23-08-2005 10:37

GhostInTheShell

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

wow, thanks, weve been looking for that, it helps alot because if the controller goes digital, the robot goes nuts

23-08-2005 11:11

Alan Anderson

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

The OI has a pull-down resistor on each analog input. It will interpret your ground as a disconnected joystick, and will send a "neutral" value of 127 to the robot. You won't be able to distinguish things based on that.

You might try connecting +5v instead. Very few joysticks are capable of getting the analog value above 250, so you might be able to detect a higher value as indicating the existence of your special circuit. Or you could try to find the proper mid-range voltage to make the OI send out "0" without triggering its open circuit detector (see if a 100K or 120K resistor to +5v works).

23-08-2005 12:14

emarion

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

We're using a real digital input for this, not analog. I believe the digital inputs use pull-ups instead of pull-downs.

23-08-2005 12:42

Alan Anderson

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

I was (and still am) confused by your saying that a grounded pin is impossible for a normal joystick. That's true of the analog inputs, and the "aux" signal you mentioned is an analog input (you probably meant sw_aux1 or sw_aux2, which are indeed switch inputs). However, the OI digital inputs are designed to be grounded when the switch is pressed. Grounding a switch input is not impossible; on the contrary, it's mandatory.

23-08-2005 12:58

emarion

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Sorry, I was probably unclear. We are using sw_aux1. What I meant was that the joysticks that we're using have only two buttons. Therefore it is impossible for them to signal a "push" of any other digital input. Our circuit pretends that it is pushing the aux1 digital input. Therefore the robot can tell what is plugged in.

23-08-2005 13:23

Alan Anderson

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Got it. Your joysticks don't connect to that input, so they can't ground it. I misread the description as if it said that no joystick could do it, which is obviously wrong (the white KOP joysticks have switches on all four digital inputs, for example).

23-08-2005 13:33

[527]phil

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

exactly what i was talking about, the only problem is I'm using a BASIC Atom pro 24 pin, the programmings much different for the 28 pin.

23-08-2005 16:55

Joe Johnson

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

I really think that IFI should sell an adapter to go from a PS2 gamepad or a USB gamepad to the input ports of an RC.

One thing I would really like is that this will enable us to could go with a wireless gamepad -- how often have your drivers been visually blocked because they are tied down to wired joysticks?

This would be a great idea for IFI to take on.

Joe J.

23-08-2005 17:10

JVN

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Aaaaaaactually,
When I was interning with IFI last summer, the EE's had robots driving around on PS2 Gamepads. The technology was finished and working beautifully, but the project was scrapped for some reason. I think they weren't sure about the market for it.
I'm not really sure.

Who would prefer using this instead of a joystick?

-John

23-08-2005 17:15

Bcahn836

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Compared to last years joysticks, i would love to use a ps2 or a game pad to control the robot. But there is just one problem, Iam no longer a student and therefore I can't drive the robot in competition. But I do think it would be awesome if a set up like that was available. . .

23-08-2005 17:24

mechanicalbrain

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Actually what would be a cooler thing to see would be a 3D joystick with a serial interface. Before somebody mentions a MS sidewinder they are not compatible with the RC. Yeah if somebody were to come out with a RC compatible 3D joystick it would be amazing!

23-08-2005 17:43

Alan Anderson

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

You said the same thing a couple of days ago, and my answer yesterday stands: The OI doesn't have any ports to which you can connect a serial joystick.

I actually have a 3D joystick with a serial interface; it's a Hewlett-Packard Spaceball. Few programs have the ability to use it as an input device.

23-08-2005 17:57

mechanicalbrain

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Sorry, didn't mean serial (i keep doing that). I meant a game (joystick) port.

23-08-2005 18:00

Joe J.

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Having driven our robot solo on both the old 3 joystick controls and our new PS2 controls. I can say this the PS2 controller is way easier to drive the robot with. Also its way quicker at capping Tetras because all the controls you need are right there.

24-08-2005 09:19

Don Wright

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

I would bet just about anything that anybody would prefer to use PS2 gamepads over the huge joysticks.

24-08-2005 09:40

Rohan_DHS

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

I know that I would!

25-08-2005 14:25

Bill_Hancoc

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Has anybody ever thought of nstalling maybe a car style shifter i place of the left right-handed controller. I made one on my lathe at home if you want pics email me at Silverbullet38@gmail.com

28-08-2005 09:32

jarowe

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

After breaking it on Friday night at the Rock Financial Showplace, the team got it working on Saturday in time for our last 5 matches.

Of course, the joystick controls are very touchy, and it's difficult to be thinking about driving and using the arm simultaneously, but once you get accustomed to it, it is easier to control the robot. Mind you, the only video game I play is Soul Calibur, because it's the only one I can win. Because I button mash. I'm not sure why they let me drive...

I think if we go with the PS2 controls for competition next year, we'll have to controllers. One for drive, one for the manipulator. It'll be easier to control that way, and it will get more people out on the field during competition.

They've been working on this all summer, and it's really good to see that they were able to make it work!

Good work to Eric, Derek and Jake!

28-08-2005 15:46

jakep

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Well, just to clear things up, it was never broken. We were moving it over from an oversized breadboard into a nice concise little box. Since our robot has been moving around to various demos lately, we have little time to get things working, so we just had to drive with the regular joysticks while we were sorting things out.

P.S. - We will be getting documentation with sourcecode, pictures, and information out soon. We are working on getting it powered off the OI, so an external power source is not needed.

05-09-2005 01:16

GhostInTheShell

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

in response to number 3 by SlimBoJones, yes. that would be awsome

03-10-2005 23:42

GhostInTheShell

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

another update, we are about () () close to getting the final version done, its gonna be uber small and use smd parts, better schematics soon,
ALSO, we got it working powered off the OI

26-10-2005 16:54

mugen

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

you guys should use a DDR (dance dance revolution) pad so that it's like you are the robot.

02-11-2005 23:29

Rickertsen2

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

So how about that source code?


I have been considering a similar project to convert USB HID->Gameport.

03-11-2005 22:11

Denalin Fusion

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Can you imagine controlling a robot on a DDR pad? Mehehe, it woudn't support tank mode, though.

04-11-2005 12:00

wilshire

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

it would be pretty nifty if you could get the force feedback to work. Its always good to know where the problem lies and when it happens to imeadiately take counter measures. Unless it is very apparent like a sprocket flying out of your arm. Its kinda of hard to miss that while your driving.

04-11-2005 18:13

jakep

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Sorry for the lack of updates on this project. We have been having some problems with power supply through the OI, which makes us always fall back to external power. Once we get these things resolved, we will make the project code available.

04-11-2005 22:57

fuse

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Ugh, i thought of using a ps2 controller 3 years ago and now i wish i had acted on it. I wish you guys luck though, it looks great so far. I was just planning on getting a bunch of adapters until i got to the game port, but i think getting your design legal would be a better approach. The weird thing is i have been soldering PICs on my team for like a year now and hadn't bothered to try what you guys are doing. Keep us updated as i think it is clear we all want to have this end good. (i sure would want to drive with one)

07-11-2005 10:38

mallot1243

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

How did you program it?

14-11-2005 22:16

d.courtney

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

I haven't been on Chief Delphi in a while and was suprised to see this topic as I did it in September. Its nice to see the same idea I had others had as well. But yeah I used http://www.levelsix.com/product_info.php?products_id=35 as my ps2 (well actualy I used my old ps1 controler) and it seemed to work great, there was a minimal amount of programming (just had to edit some of the input values). I really enjoyed the fact that I didn't have to program a dead zone as the anolog sticks automaticly returned to dead center (or close enough that it didn't matter in my case) ... the thing I don't understand is how people think this is against the rules, as the controller has the same setup as a joystick pretty much. The difference maily being that it has a rumble ability (which for some reason I am having trouble to program).

Well anyway against the rules or not thats what I did... I hope for my sake it isn't agaisnt the rules.

15-11-2005 19:11

fuse

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Wait so how did you go from the parallel to the game port. Or did you modify it? Basically how did you connect your controller to the operator interface using that adapter?

15-11-2005 19:34

Rickertsen2

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

so.... how about that source you promised.....

15-11-2005 20:30

Not2B

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

We have our team meeting tomorrow. I'll bug the Geek Team about it. See if I can get them to post the white paper they were working on.

I know they have it almost done... heck, they asked if they could get professionally made PCBs made... they better be close to done.

17-12-2005 12:43

jakep

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Alright, after being badgered by the team for a few months, we are finally getting everything together. We are currently working on a detailed whitepaper that explains everything you need to build one of these yourself, as well as about the history of the project (It wasn't easy to build this thing...) We will be making some changes to the sourcecode before that, since right now it has 0 comments and is impossible to understand.

We also want to get a PCB professionally printed.

I will keep everyone updated.

27-01-2006 16:08

pathew100

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

White Paper has now been posted. This is competition legal as well!

Playstation 2 Controller Adapter

26-01-2007 02:01

sonofdad123

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

technically all ports in the back of the computer are serial ports, except for the printer port which is parallel. the only difference besides connotation is the method in which data is sent and received. :-)

28-01-2007 19:17

bhsrobotics1671

Re: pic: PS2 Driven Robot

Where did you order the chips for the controller box from. The ones that go on the PCB board.