02-10-2006 12:42

Elgin Clock

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

::sings:: They call me mellow yellow.. ::sings::


I clicked on the pic to see a close up of the Days Of Thunder Mellow Yellow sponsored race car-esque paint job and then realized it was actually painted as an ear of corn popping out of its green leaves.

Pretty wild.

02-10-2006 12:48

Fuzzy

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

The cars there were really neat, hopefully someone took pictures of their futuristic looking seats. Someone managed to set off the alarm in one of the cars though :x

02-10-2006 14:47

sanddrag

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

My 1999 Ford Ranger can run on E85. Can I buy it anywhere? No. Cars that run on E85 certainly aren't anything new and aren't anything to make much news over. When gas stations start selling E85, then lets get excited.

02-10-2006 14:54

KenWittlief

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

I was under the impression all you had to do to run a conventional car on ethanol was to re-jet the carberator (if it had a carb, making the jets about 15% larger)

I would think with a fuel injected engine it would be a trivial tweak to the engine control SW, or even a switch on the dashboard

so I am sitting here wondering, what exactly makes this an 'ethanol powered car' ?

I remember reading about people running cars and tractors on pure ethanol in The Mother Earth News (magazine) back in the '70s

02-10-2006 15:03

Schnabel

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

Ethanol is not really that great if you think about it. My dad told me that consumer reports did a test with it and found out that it is actually cheaper to buy gas (more miles to the gallon). Also, if you were to take all of the kernels of corn in the U.S. it would only supply about 16% of the demand per year. Now how useful is ethanol in reality? I think I'm going to stick to the petroleum for now!

02-10-2006 15:09

KenWittlief

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

well, yeah, but you are talking about 16% of billions and billions of dollars per year that are presently going to other countries, that could stay here.

and I believe the pollution from burning ethanol is near zero.

02-10-2006 15:10

6600gt

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

No you need a whole stainless steel fuel system because Ethanol is corrosive.

Why does it always have to be a massive pickup or SUV? It kind of negates the benifits of the Ethanol drive train.

I think conservation can save a lot more.

Personally, I believe conservation is the only true solution. All alternatives fuel resources have major flaws and we can't really wait for all the solutions. It will be too late!

02-10-2006 15:17

Carol

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

I actually took the picture of this car because it was a neat display (and the other side of the car was MOE green ). I did talk to the rep about their fuel cell prototype car, but that was a bland color.

If you look closely, and you may not be able to see it in this pic, the yellow is actually painted to look like rows of corn kernels.

The rep did say to someone there that E85 is just a temporary solution to the gas crisis and more work is being done to improve cost and efficiency.

02-10-2006 15:23

JaneYoung

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

I am all about that display Carol, it is way cool.
Thanks for putting up all the pictures, they are amazing.
Jane

02-10-2006 15:53

KenWittlief

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

well, ok, everyone drive less and drive more fuel effecient vehicles

then we can run 33% of our vehicles on ethanol instead of gasoline, but those billions of dollars can still be pumped back into our economy, instead of handing it to foreign goverments to pump sludge out of the ground.

02-10-2006 17:34

Tristan Lall

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

Why should they stay in the U.S. if other countries can produce the product more efficiently? After all, even after transport costs are taken into account, Middle Eastern oil is cheaper to produce than American oil, and much cheaper than anyone's ethanol.

So, would you accept higher prices for fuel, just to keep jobs in America? What does that accomplish, on average? The American worker pays more for transportation, causing a decrease in consumption (i.e. buying things), because of reduced disposable income. On the other hand, employment levels presumably increase due to the need to produce locally. Except that reduced consumption could easily cause reduced production, meaning that jobs may be eliminated. How can you be sure that you're balancing these factors?
In some ways, it's better, because of the type and concentration of impurities (e.g. sulfur is typically present in gasoline, but not in ethanol). But in terms of things like CO emissions, it's the same carbon in either fuel; it depends on whether the engine is mechanically capable of sustaining relatively complete combustion, and whether the operating conditions permit it. Any hydrocarbon fuel is burned at the whim of its engine.

Also, at present, infrastructure and transportation costs for ethanol exceed those of gasoline. This has plenty to do with the inability to transport ethanol through pipelines, or store it in tank farms, for fear of accumulating water in the fuel. The current solution is to use trucks to transport the fuel; this is impractical given the volume of fuel needed to serve the North American market.

Brazil, which has been using ethanol for years, has a significant advantage over North America: tropical climate. This allows them to grow sugarcane locally, for conversion to ethanol fuel. They therefore eliminate the transport and storage difficulties. But recall that the price of this convenience is a dependence on slash-and-burn agriculture to sustain many cane plantations—they cause environmental damage by eliminating rainforests, rather than by necessitating more transport trucks.

When you look at the whole picture, the operating energy costs of an ethanol infrastructure are at best insignificantly better than gasoline, and in reality, probably somewhat worse. Improvements in transport and storage technology may eventually bring this around, but for today, especially in the Northern U.S. and Canada, a 6-month growing season is not a practical way to sustain a year-round need for fuel.

02-10-2006 21:45

KenWittlief

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

the billions of dollar per year that we would be putting into our own economy (which is presently going into the pockets of obscenely wealthy kings and families in the middle east) would provide meaningful jobs for thousands of people in this country

and it would also drive the growth of an ethanol based transportation system, resulting in the needed infrastructure being created and built up over the years

the best part is this is a renewable resource. It wont be gone in 50 or 100 years.

people have demonstrated the will to do the right thing regarding our economy and our environment. The hybrid electric cars that are being purchased in large numbers today cost more to drive in the long run than a base-model gasoline car, but people are still willing to pay more for them.

02-10-2006 23:43

6600gt

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

How much corn are we willing to grow for fuel while people are starving?

Is ethanol really worth the massive fertilzer run off into our streams and rivers? These are not grown organically folks.

One hummer probably offsets the gain of multiple ethanol and hybrid vehicles. Until people stop buy bigger and bigger vehicles every year, a couple of hybrids or E85 vehicles here and there, aren't going to make a dent in the Middle East economy.

02-10-2006 23:46

sanddrag

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

Perhaps WVO is the answer.

02-10-2006 23:53

6600gt

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

Where to find 7 billion barrels/year of it?...LOL.

03-10-2006 06:08

Schnabel

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

Yeah, but then we would have to import all of our corn to eat, then we would end up getting more of a cost per can of corn at your local grocery store.

"Hey mom, can we get some corn?"
"No, it is too expensive"
"But it's on sale for $4.50 a can."

03-10-2006 08:16

KenWittlief

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

no, it would only cost around $80 per barrel for light sweet corn :^)

03-10-2006 08:18

Tristan Lall

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

What sort of infrastructure? Trucks? They need a breakthrough in large-scale storage and transport, before this is reasonable in anywhere but the U.S. Midwest.

And realistically, no matter who's running the hydrocarbon fuel show, the profits get absorbed by those in positions of power. It's not just sheikhs; Americans, Europeans, and eastern Asians all have their own homegrown oil magnates. If you don't like the profit sharing, simply transferring responsibility to the domestic arms of Exxon or Texaco (or maybe Monsanto, if corn-based fuel becomes popular) won't solve the problem.

And while I certainly can't make a definitive prediction based on such a small set of evidence, remember that even if thousands of jobs are created in America, if higher fuel costs make disposable income decrease, the standard of living might well follow. Even a small (percentage) decrease, because it's due to something as ubiquitous as automotive fuel, will have significant effects on GDP. So one can only hope that the increased consumption due to slightly lower unemployment will mitigate this.
Consistently? I doubt that. The "right thing" for the economy depends greatly on your views on such things; it's a complex enough system that it's difficult to prove any particular economic strategy is the correct one. Effectively, that means that damned near anything can be justified as the "right thing". Environmentally, people are willing to do token things, like buy organic foods, once in a while—but on average, there's not much evidence for people doing the "right thing" on a consistent basis. The lifestyle that we all enjoy simply doesn't lend itself to very environmentally responsible choices. Demand that people drive more efficient cars? They complain about their liberty. Ask them nicely? They don't do it. You have to trick them with hybrids (and the associated mystique—like "atomic" in the 50s) to get them to embrace efficiency—until they realize that current hybrid technology can't pay for itself in gas savings, not even with $1.20/L gas.

03-10-2006 09:26

KenWittlief

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

My wifes best friend recently purchased the Toyota Hybrid (the Prius?)

she is the head nurse at a hospital, and her husband is an industrial engineer. Nobody tricked them into buying the car, they understood the long term cost vs the money they would save on fuel

and they had to take what they could get from the dealer when they could get it, at the list price, because the car had a 3 month back order.

03-10-2006 09:43

AudieMurphy

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

Think I read that they can now take cellulose ethanol from just about anything that grows. If I remember the article right, the speculation was that it would be switchgrass and not corn that would fuel our cars if we made a move to ethanol because switchgrass can be grown almost anywhere and harvested multiple times per year giving a much greater energy yield per acre.

03-10-2006 11:35

Tristan Lall

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

Let's say you drive 15 000 km per year, and you have a choice between a 45 MPG Prius and a 30 MPG Corolla sedan or wagon (similarly-sized cars). At $0.95/L, you save $372.42 per year*. Now, if you keep the car for seven years, that's $2 606.96. Does the Prius cost more than that much above and beyond a Corolla? And that doesn't even take into account the interest you could earn on that money, if it were in hand and invested over that timeframe. And it doesn't count the cost of service for a Prius (which has many expensive components due to its low volume) versus that of a Corolla (which is ubiquitous).

Of course, there are some comparisons that can be made, that do save money—between buying something like a Dodge Magnum and a Toyota Prius, for example. These are comparably-priced cars. Or if you really do drive 45 000 km per year, the Prius can save some money.

The trouble is, people see "hybrid", and think that they're automatically doing something fantastic by buying it. It has to be right for the use that you put it to; current hybrids are not a solution for everybody, so long as cost is a factor.

*U.S. gallons, Canadian dollars, and gas is currently around $0.78/L.

03-10-2006 12:53

KenWittlief

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

last time I worked out the math it was cheaper to buy a base model Saturn Ion (5 speed) that got 38 to 42mpg than to buy a hybrid electric car (several thousand dollars more) that got 55 to 65mpg, if you planned to drive the car 120k miles

this has been all over the news this summer. It only takes a few minutes to run the calculations if you know the specs and prices of two cars, and the price of gas. Hybrid electric cars do cost you more than a base model economy car to own and drive.

People know that, and there is still a back log of orders for hybrid electric cars- which is what I was trying to point out - people are buying them for other reasons than to save money.

I know of at least one hyrbid owner whos son is a Marine in Iraq. Maybe its their way to take a step towards breaking the strangle hold the middle east has on our transportation system.

If I could buy a one passenger electric car that could hit 45mph, with a 30 mile range, for $7 or $8k, I would, for the sole purpose of driving to work, 15 miles each way. I could design a car myself in a few days that would meet my requirements, but it would be very expensive for me to build one in my garage.

The problem is the economy of scale. For a new car company, or a new car line to be viable you have to build hundreds of thousands, or millions of cars a year, to compete against the gas models that are presently available. That requires a huge startup investment (probably $1B or more).

So far no one has stepped up to the plate to do it.

03-10-2006 15:22

MattB703

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

A Honda Spree? (I know it is not electric, but it probably uses less energy than the electric company would use to power your electric car)

03-10-2006 16:46

Conor Ryan

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

My opinion on alternate fuel cars:

• Have you seen Who Killed the Electric Car? ?
• Why aren't there any fully electric cars produced by the Big Automakers?
  • Yes there is a market for electric cars
• Why isn't there a car that runs on thought?

03-10-2006 16:58

JaneYoung

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

just to name a few:
- going in circles
- hitting a blank wall
- losing my train of thought, keyword - train -

other than that I think my mind could power/drive a car very well.

03-10-2006 17:33

BobC

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

What I want to know is why does Diesel cost so much more than gasoline. Yet it cost 30% less to make diesel than it does gasoline. Why does the price of a gallon of fuel go up the day after the price of a barrel of oil go up on the open market. Yet it takes for ever for the price to come down. I can tell you how much diesel fuel went up between 2004 and 2005.

I drove appox. 59,000 miles in 2004
I drove appox. 60,000 miles in 2005

THE COST OF FUEL ???

2004 was $12,000
2005 was $18,000

03-10-2006 18:50

sanddrag

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

Geez. Where do you go every day?

03-10-2006 19:08

Wetzel

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

In Northern Virginia, there is another cost to factor into your hybrid benefit matrix: time. Up until June 1st 2006, a hybrid qualified for special licence plates that exempted you from HOV restrictions. In the heavily congested 95 and 66 corridors, this could save you an hour or more a day in sitting in traffic.

That has much greater value than a few gallons of gas each week.

Wetzel

03-10-2006 23:21

6600gt

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

Economics of supply and demand. Semis use Diesel, enough said.


Every one should watch this video!!!!!

Hydrogen is the next gasoline that oil companies want to make money from. It has nothing to do with the enviornment.

03-10-2006 23:26

Wetzel

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

Diesel in northern Virginia used to be cheaper than regular gasoline. At some point in the past two years or so, diesel switched to a low sulfur formula that caused the price to jump above the cost of premium gasoline. American gas, pretax, is some of the most expensive in the world, but it is also some of the cleanest burning gas in the world.

Environmentalism can be expensive, but the alternative could be much more costly.

Wetzel

04-10-2006 15:41

BobC

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

My job. I own my own truck and drive about 1200 to 1500 miles in a 5 day work week. I know it is that mush because I have to get oil change every six thousand miles which happens about every four to five weeks.

06-10-2006 17:11

Tomasz Bania

Re: pic: Ethanol powered car from GM

I live right across from the General Motors Technical Center in Warren,MI and we have 2 E85 stations within a mile and 18 in the Metro Detroit Area. Right now the price is $1.95 a gallon. If you calculate fuel mileage through and all that, you really don't save much. Although at the pump it's 10 cents less than regular, fuel economy is worse.

Just dropping some info.

Tomasz Bania

P.S. I am planning on getting an E85 SUV soon (not for the savings since their is none, but just to be cleaner)