10-01-2007 01:27

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Wow. I'm amazed your AM shifters arrived already. Of course, I'm assuming you ordered them during the build season. Because if not, I do recall them being illegal to use on a FIRST robot.


Looks nice though.

10-01-2007 02:14

Nuttyman54

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

why would they be illegal? they're a COTS items, which you can have plenty of lying around for use if they're unmodified. Even if those were modified, as long as the modifications were done during build season they'd still be legal.

10-01-2007 08:25

Lil' Lavery

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

According to <R17> you can't have any pre-purchased mechanisms on your bot, such as an AM transmission.

10-01-2007 10:37

Nuttyman54

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Ahh...looks like I skimmed the rules a little too lightly. Thanks.

10-01-2007 10:44

Dan Richardson

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Just another rule with good intentions but in the end hurts the little guy :-( Teams with big budgets can purchase multiples, some to prototype, then some after the season starts. Low budget teams obviously can't do this, and technically the COTS parts purchased for prior year robots aren't supposed to be used even if its just in order to save money.

But on the plus side, the andy marks work great and you'll be happy with their performance.

10-01-2007 17:53

P1d40n3

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

But you can have unmodified COTS Components that you have bought during the off-season. And the transmissions are unmodified COTS Components.

10-01-2007 18:32

Billfred

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Don't bet on that.
(emphasis mine)An AM Shifter meets the criteria of a MECHANISM, not a COMPONENT, and therefore it must have been purchased after Kickoff under the current interpretation of the rules.

10-01-2007 19:53

falconmaster

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Well it looks like we caused a lot of controversy! Woops! We will buy a new set of AM shifters. It looked like they were legal, but the rules tripped us up. They are unmodified and they are off the shelf, however they are mechanisms sooooo.........
We will get news ones to cover our bases. Sorry all

10-01-2007 19:58

falconmaster

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Oh yes the one person was right, it is pultruded fiberglass. Sorry my mistake. Thanks for catching it though.

10-01-2007 20:21

Lil' Lavery

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Look at it like a bonus, if you don't want to use pneumatics elsewhere, you can just buy the new servo shifting version

10-01-2007 20:52

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Looks like we'll be seeing another quality frame from you guys. I kind of wish my team had the resources to do the fiberglass or composite materal frame.

How much does your entire chassis weigh? (without motors or gearboxes, just the composite)

10-01-2007 21:59

falconmaster

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Check out www.creativepultrusions.com the prices vary for each type of material. It is more expensive than steel or aluminum but manufacturing time is cut way down. In the end is is far more cost effective and repair or rebuilding a piece that breaks during a tournament. All you need is a hack saw and some nuts and bolts and a dremel.

11-01-2007 20:10

Andy Baker

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Fredi,

Don't do that yet.

I disagree with Sean, Billfred, Andy Brockaway and others who say that an AM Shifter (or other purchased, standard assembly) is illegal. Looking at the definition of MECHANISM, I see a key word in there: custom. We sell standard products, not custom assemblies. Let's look at the definition again:

"MECHANISM – A COTS or custom assembly of COMPONENTS that provide specific functionality on the ROBOT. A MECHANISM can be disassembled (and then reassembled) into individual COMPONENTS without damage to the parts."


I see this as an assembly of individual purchased parts. As an example, a keen designer, can go to http://www.misumiusa.com and buy tooling and components to make a custom assembly of individual purchased parts. This can be done without fabricating anything themselves. You could create a gripper, a frame, or a sliding mechanism that is a custom assembly from purchased parts.

If this rule is continued to be misinterpreted, then IFI Victors, HiTec servos, Dewalt transmissions, BaneBot gearboxes, joysticks, and other purchased assemblies (pre-kickoff, of course) might be deemed illegal by smart people.

I would be immensely suprised if pre-ship-date puchases of AndyMark brand assemblies are deemed not legal. Since 2002 (and maybe prior?), this has been legal. If FIRST were to make this significant change, then it would be wise and gracious to warn the FIRST teams and the supporting suppliers back in July, before the plan for the upcoming season.

Andy Baker

11-01-2007 20:28

Richard Wallace

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

For what it's worth, I agree with Andy. However, the real message here is not that AM Shifters, purchased before 2007 Kickoff, either are or are not legal for 2007 FRC events. The message is that this is an unresolved question.

We all (teams, volunteers, suppliers, etc.) need an official response from the GDC, on the FIRST Q&A Forum, to settle the question. And soon.

I'm fairly sure that the question has been submitted and that the question and the response will be published together in due course.

EDIT: A related response has been published, saying that the AndyMark AM-2 shifter would be considered a COTS MECHANISM.

12-01-2007 00:58

Andy Baker

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Fredi,

New advice... just use the unmodified Trannies off of your robot from last year. Oddly enough, those are legal.

Andy

12-01-2007 03:01

Doug G

Re: pic: Team 842 Tranmission Spine

Andy,

You leave me more confused than ever. In the First Q&A they sound like they've ruled the AM Shifter as a mechanism and mechanisms are not allowed from previous robots per <R28>. What am I missing?