21-10-2007 20:13

eshteyn

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

o0o, this is just the first step. Later you will put a seat on the cart with a complete drive system, second car battery, and a tool box. You'll see

Mwahahahahahaha!!!!!!

if you don't know what i am talking about

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/29115

21-10-2007 22:07

BlackShadowFox

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

Well i wasn't thinking about the riding part but now that you talk about it that would make things easier. Then to go even further have you operator interface mounted on the cart and have it drive up to your teams operating spot. i know i wouldn't mind sitting down while driving the robot.

21-10-2007 22:24

T3_1565

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

not sure thats legal.... the whole cart in the operation spot and all. What if the human player climbs on it to his advantage???

21-10-2007 22:29

eshteyn

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

I'm telling you, we had the charging system on the cart for about 4 years(just like the one your designing) and i just added a second car battery, a seat with a 4 link harness, 2 joystick drive, a tool box, and probably going to add a mini fridge. The electrical system your designing is only step one you'll see

21-10-2007 22:31

geeknerd99

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

I don't forsee caster wheels driving too well. Remember that Master C isn't letting us change the wheels on this baby.

Hovercraft, here we come!

21-10-2007 22:34

T3_1565

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

ahaha *switches casters for giant fans and a skirt*

yet somehow I would love to see something driven by caster wheels.... just to see what would happen to it

21-10-2007 22:40

eshteyn

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

believe it or not, drives pretty well, does a good 10 fps down the hall

21-10-2007 22:43

T3_1565

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

you must of locked the casters from being able to rotate around. what I meantr was a shopping cart style drive, one wheel is wobbly, the other keeps flipping around etc etc.

but I do believe that they would have some nice speed to them when they are locked in place lol

21-10-2007 22:45

eshteyn

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

nope, the casters i used do not lock in place,




CAN YOU IMAGINE CART DRAG RACING?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!

21-10-2007 22:48

BlackShadowFox

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

on the long stretch at national
oh god that would rock!

21-10-2007 22:51

eshteyn

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

I only have to think to leave my troop transport trailer hitched or unhitched during the race, yes i said it, i made a trailer with seats for the rest of the operations crew

as for cart racing, lets just say it should be very interesting

21-10-2007 22:52

geeknerd99

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

*Makes mental note to personally push cart in Atlanta*

*And also to steal a 5 mph speed limit sign before Atlanta*

21-10-2007 22:54

eshteyn

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

Can we negotiate for 8mph for transport and as for racer, to each his own?

21-10-2007 22:56

geeknerd99

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

A little electrical tape, and 5 becomes an 8.

BTW, let's keep this back on topic with the wiring plans. Cart drag racing can be discussed in chit-chat.

21-10-2007 22:59

eshteyn

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

well looking at your design it could be greatly simplified. everything runs through the inverter except the car battery charger. My method only requires 2 AC relays.

21-10-2007 23:02

BlackShadowFox

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

The only problem with that is a inverter can't make 100% of the DC energy to AC their is about a 20% loss as compared to a DC to DC converter where near to none is lost.

21-10-2007 23:08

eshteyn

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

very true but honestly unless your planning on leaving it unplugged for 2 days straight and expect everything to be charged then theres really no need to be so concerned about it, thats just my experience. Your idea is great, but there has to be a way to simplify it. Simplicity is usually the best thing especially when in competition you cant devote any time to fix the system.

24-10-2007 08:07

robostangs548

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

Looks pretty sweet, i hope to see it in Atlanta

25-10-2007 19:19

Al Skierkiewicz

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

Not to rain on anyone's parade but... Game rules require that robot batteries be charged with the KOP supplied chargers only. As I have pointed out in other posts, UL Safety Advisors will be taking a long look at this type of design as it mixes high voltage AC and low voltage DC as well as having no safety ground while moving.

25-10-2007 19:28

Billfred

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

Not quite, Al...

Edit: Read Richard's post, too.

25-10-2007 19:38

Richard Wallace

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

Billfred cited the rule correctly. However, I would still heed Al's suggestions above. He has many a grey hair and he earned them all the old-fashioned way.

The UL Safety Advisors are, well, UL people. Their professional responsibility is looking out for safety hazards, and they literally set the standards for that. I would expect them to look for UL labels on any electrical device that is connected to the AC power system, and for any such device to be properly connected to an earth terminal (aka "ground") when it is in use.

25-10-2007 20:16

Al Skierkiewicz

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

Bill,
You are correct. What I was pointing to is the DC powered trickle chargers shown on the diagram.

25-10-2007 21:37

BlackShadowFox

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

Thanks Billfred for the Rule <R54> and sorry about the last time i debated about the the rules.

I'm kinda lost in what you guys are saying here. I see that you people are saying it would be safer if their was a AC (earth) ground, but i am lost on why the DC tinkle chargers would no be o.k. please explain why charging DC with DC at different amperages using a current limiter is wrong.

Am i right to assume that if i hooked the main battery to the DC to AC converter then to the AC to DC chargers that would result in a lot of noise that would have to be filtered and would be highly inefficient and may cause weird result in the robot batteries/ chargers.

Please Explain

25-10-2007 22:51

Richard Wallace

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

I'll take a whack at it.

First, the trickle chargers must be UL rated if they are active while the cart is connected to AC power. And they should be appropriately fused to protect the wiring to the cart battery. Since Chargers 2 and 3 effectively become trickle chargers when their batteries are full, separate trickle chargers aren't really needed anyway. Chargers 2 and 3 should be connected to AC power when it is available, and switched over the inverter output when AC power is not available.

Second, the connection shown as a red line across the top center of the diagram indicates direct connection of the inverter output to an AC power cord. This is generally not a good idea, and in any case it provides no benefit to your cart that I can see. Powering the inverter from the cart battery and then powering Charger 1 from the inverter to charge the cart battery -- well, that arrangement has power chasing its own tail! The inverter should provide power to AC devices when AC power connection is not available, and should not be connected to Charger 1.

26-10-2007 07:05

BlackShadowFox

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

Oh this is my fault i should have done this sooner but i forgot. the ac input mean input only that line wouldn't provide power back to system. The inverter

I'm using a Vanner inverter where their is a AC relay inside of it that choses whether AC from the wall is used or the create its own. Sorry for the miss direction about that but i thought that people would take input as input only.

26-10-2007 07:34

Richard Wallace

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

This is getting interesting! Maybe the inverter you are using addresses the safety concerns that have been raised here. Are you using this one? I haven't checked out all of its specs yet (slow internet this morning) but it seems to handle change-over to shore power automatically.

Also, what else can you tell us about the trickle chargers?

26-10-2007 08:16

Al Skierkiewicz

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

Specifically at issue here is the chance for a wiring error to cause high voltage to be present on exposed metal on your cart. I know you are going to tell me that everything is done correctly and it has been checked over by a knowledgeable mentor but we still have the potential for personal injury of not only your team but those around you in the pit and in the cue. As Richard has pointed out, I have a few grey hairs (and many that have dropped out by themselves) from being witness to a variety of damages from miswiring. These events are mostly non-robot related. One of the things I and other mentors strive for is a safe event where everyone can have a great time. I would feel very bad if I was able to head off a disaster but failed to cry a warning. So for the record, the use of an inverter and the obvious use of high voltage on a cart requires some extra precaution and safety checking that even I am not able to give (either via CD or in person). I caution you (and other teams that may be thinking along the same lines), that event staff may not be open to the use of this cart where the public is at risk. I would rather you have an interesting cart with no power on board than a cart which event staff and other teams find objectionable and needs to be removed from the venue.

On another note...although there is no rule against charging batteries right up until you take the field, I think many people could and would take it as giving you an advantage over those teams that don't have that capability. I wouldn't commit to this design without an official FIRST OK. Sorry.

26-10-2007 15:56

BlackShadowFox

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

For Richard:

This is the right company but however that is not the same inverter. I'm using a donated inverter that was a scrap part from an ambulance. As for the model number and specs i will have to wait till Monday to give you further information.

For Al Skierkiewicz:

if we were at competition i would give you a lot of safety credits for your constant strive for safety. i understand what you are saying with my heart but with a obsession like mine it would be hard to break. i desire that this cart be more robot than cart if you know what i mean, not trying to go against you here. the only promise i could give you would be that i will ensure that my cart wouldn't endanger others and if i see fit i would cancel the project and remove it myself. All i ask is for you to believe in my planning skills and to try to trust in me.

As for the charging till the point of the game i will ask first but in thinking about it. it shouldn't have that much of an effect but still it is better safe than sorry.

29-10-2007 08:03

Al Skierkiewicz

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

Fluffy,
Don't let your obsession shadow your thought process. I don't want to shut you down on this design but it is a dangerous undertaking that involves a great many other people. I would suggest you follow a few additions to your plan.

1. You need to add appropriate fusing of the main battery, DC and AC wiring and a simple quick disconnect to remove all power from the cart.
2. You must adequately insulate (and I mean prevent any contact by using enclosures not just tape and heatshrink) all electrical connections. This includes the main battery.
3. Promise me that before applying power at all events, you seek out the UL safety advisors and event staff. They both must examine your cart and pass on it's design and use before you can connect the main battery.
4. You need to provide adequate control (key switch or lockout) such that only you or your mentor may apply power to the cart. You need to know that a new team member hasn't comprimised your design by connecting something they shouldn't have or made repairs that you do not know about.

Let us know how you progress and post a picture.

29-10-2007 10:48

ebarker

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

Not to rain on a parade here but, ( there is an old rule that says to ignore everything before a 'but' )

Student built machinery aka robots are operated inside of a confined area like a practice or competition arena. One of the reasons is for safety.

Put yourself in FIRST's position and think about this. What is the possibility and the effects of large numbers of teams building massive, strong, powered robotic carts for use in pit areas.

If an 'arms race' were to break out with teams trying to build the most sophisticated robotic cart without rule for confining safety hazards then that will be a BIG problem.

With all due respect to everyone here, student and amateur built stuff is generally lacking in safety and reliability as compared to professionally built stuff and safety agency approval. There is a significant risk of injury in a crowed noisy pit area.

To be completely fair and honest I have not read every thing in this thread in great detail. If the discussion is about a propelled cart than I think that is not going to work. If you have a cart with other electronic systems that pass some sort of inspection then that might fly.

I admire the creativity and hard work shown in this effort but this warning needs to be considered.

30-10-2007 15:32

geeknerd99

Re: pic: Cart Wiring Plans

Exactly. A big focus of this cart was to be cool, but very safe at the same time.

I don't like the idea of a propelled cart either. Just consider the amount of energy contained in a fully loaded cart slamming into something, or worse, someone.

We're not really working too hard on the cart right now anyways, as we have other, more relevant projects at hand.