15-12-2007 17:34

11Mort11

Re: pic: Game hint

is this legit?

15-12-2007 17:38

geeknerd99

Re: pic: Game hint

Looks pretty legit to me.... read the board carefully...

More digging later

Edit: Can you show us the other end of the cable?

15-12-2007 17:39

EricH

Re: pic: Game hint

The site says something about insert text and pdf here. (You have to enter the URL directly; no link yet.)

Joe, if there wasn't photographic evidence, I'd suspect something was up on your end...Seeing as there is, Lavery Claus has struck.

Reading what is below the five LEDs, each says something about "CHXX", with XX reading (L-R) 03, 02, 01, 00. Except for the far right one, which reads "ERROR". Then you throw in what looks like a reset button. I detect a radio device of some form.

Oh, and there is a website printed on the board. www.divsys.com

15-12-2007 17:44

Cory

Re: pic: Game hint

Joe is quite the kidder

15-12-2007 17:44

Brandon Holley

Re: pic: Game hint

let the madness begin...

15-12-2007 17:45

EricH

Re: pic: Game hint

I'm pretty sure he's serious this time. He also contacted the team.

15-12-2007 17:49

geeknerd99

Re: pic: Game hint

Ahhh, let us now experience the powers of the interwebs.

15-12-2007 17:55

Billfred

Re: pic: Game hint

I call shenanigans (and not just because of Joe's history). Anybody can put a circuit board together with "© 2007 FIRST" silkscreened on it. (I also find it a little strange that FIRST would spend what can only be an appreciable sum on FedExing 1,500 of these things around the world when the kits are also going out reasonably soon.)

That said, I'm lightly seasoning my words in case I need to eat them later.

15-12-2007 17:58

clydefrog88

Re: pic: Game hint

I don't think its a hoax. Check out the provided web address, it works.

15-12-2007 18:00

Billfred

Re: pic: Game hint

The URL does work, and it points to a known supplier of FIRST (see their logo on the banner here). I'm still cautious.

15-12-2007 18:01

SU 39

Re: pic: Game hint

It definitely is real. Our mentor just got the package himself today via FedEx Saturday delivery. The picture our mentor took shows the same parts that are displayed here. Can't seem to figure anything out yet though.

15-12-2007 18:02

Tottanka

Re: pic: Game hint

I was gonna think that it all is a part of the new KOP, as the cable has where to connect on this board.
Only problem is it says FIRST2007. If it said FIRST2008, i'd be sure its from the KOP.

What could it be used for, can anyone who knows electronics look at it and tell what he thinks?

15-12-2007 18:02

clydefrog88

Re: pic: Game hint

Oh, I meant the FIRST address. There's no information posted, but the URL navigates to a valid portion of the usfirst.org site. Anyway, there goes my sleep for the rest of the year...

15-12-2007 18:02

bear24rw

Re: pic: Game hint

Whats the other end of the cable look like?

15-12-2007 18:05

Joe Ross

Re: pic: Game hint

It's just cut off, nothing attached.

15-12-2007 18:05

Doug G

Re: pic: Game hint

I just got ours. There is no other end of the cable, just cut wires.

15-12-2007 18:05

RyanN

Re: pic: Game hint

I also don't think it's a hoax. Here is what I can see from the picture:

• IR Receiver
• 5 LEDs (CMD3, CMD2, CMD1, CMD0, ERROR)
• a Microchip Processor (PIC16LF87)
• Ribbon cable goes to J1

My best guess is that this is a field element. The robots will send an IR signal to this device, and the field element will act accordingly. There are 4 commands. I think the button will clear any errors that come up (reset button).

15-12-2007 18:07

bear24rw

Re: pic: Game hint

Good guess.. i wasn't in FIRST for 2004 game but i heard that they used IR and it wasnt very reliable.. is this true?

15-12-2007 18:09

technoL

Re: pic: Game hint

There goes Christmas...

I'm still a little skeptical. Are we sure that this is a hint and not an early delivery of an item in the kit? Perhaps something extra for teams that has nothing to do with the game, like the fuel cell challenge was?

15-12-2007 18:10

Doug G

Re: pic: Game hint

The board also has a website listed on it...

DSI
www.divsys.com

but it's just a rapid prototyping company that does circuit boards.

15-12-2007 18:10

Joe Ross

Re: pic: Game hint

The envelope had a sticker that says "FRC GAME HINT!"

15-12-2007 18:12

Billfred

Re: pic: Game hint

As I remember, IR was not particularly good for navigation beyond a couple of feet away--the light could reflect off the aluminum field barriers and throw everything off. I wouldn't rule it out for other purposes, though.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to purloin some ketchup from the student union. It looks like I'm going to need it.

15-12-2007 18:12

Tottanka

Re: pic: Game hint

i can see there the number 67 on the right top of the board.
Also some sort of a black signature on the left top of it.
I think we need to see more pictures of boards, there might be a few versions of them.
What's on the other side of the board/ paper?
Why isn't there an email blast about this yet? Last year there was one.

15-12-2007 18:13

Cory

Re: pic: Game hint

How is it all the California teams got theirs first?

15-12-2007 18:15

bear24rw

Re: pic: Game hint

Shipped out of california?

15-12-2007 18:16

Cory

Re: pic: Game hint

Divsys based out of Indianapolis

FIRST based out of NH.

15-12-2007 18:17

11Mort11

is he the only one to get it so far

15-12-2007 18:17

Scott L.

Re: pic: Game hint

Specs on the PIC microchip on the circuit board

http://www.chipcatalog.com/Microchip/PIC16LF87-I-P.htm

This powerful (200 nanosecond instruction execution) yet easy-to-program (only 35 single word instructions) CMOS Flash-based 8-bit microcontroller packs Microchip’s powerful PIC® architecture into an 18-pin package and is upwards compatible with the PIC16C7x, PIC16C62xA, PIC16C5X and PIC12CXXX devices. The PIC16F87 features 8MHz internal oscillator, 256 bytes of EEPROM data memory, a capture/compare/PWM, an Addressable USART and 2 Comparators that make it ideal for advantage analog / integrated level applications in automotive, industrial, appliances and consumer applications.

15-12-2007 18:17

Joe Ross

Re: pic: Game hint

shipped from NH.

15-12-2007 18:18

Libby K

Re: pic: Game hint

GAAAAAAH! No, not now! The hint can't come out until AFTER I'm on winter break! I still have schoolwork to do! NO!

15-12-2007 18:20

bear24rw

Re: pic: Game hint

Do you think the white header is an in circuit programmer or something?

15-12-2007 18:20

Joe Ross

Re: pic: Game hint

The black stamp is a standard inspection stamp, put on by the board manufacturer.

The other side of the board is empty except for traces.

The other side of the paper has the FIRST logo and says "Tis the FRC Season..."

15-12-2007 18:26

Leav

Re: pic: Game hint

<playing_along>That black thing on the top right of the board looks like an IR emitter (transceiver?) to me... could be a way to program the RC remotely....</playing_along>

in any case I'm gonna still go with the "thanks for keeping us occupied while there is no game hint - but this is probably not real" line of thought... just to keep myself sane....

-Leav

15-12-2007 18:29

fimmel

Re: pic: Game hint

thats the road im taking at the moment. i couldn't handle 20 days, 15.5 hours of guessing lol

...forest

15-12-2007 18:33

Bongle

Re: pic: Game hint

Ugh... I always dislike these threads because past hints have always been so far from what the game ended being, or being hoaxes. It is so easy to think of theories that are fully justified but end up being completely off the mark.

But... I have my own theory:

The colors of the cable remind me of Dave's pre-finals speech at the 06 championship where he made like the vision targets were going to change colours from green->red->blue throughout the einstein matches. The various CMD[0..3] LCDs could indicate the current colour that it is driving. Since there appears to be nothing that appears to connect to the RC, I'd say this is a field element control piece. The IR receiver looks exactly like the ones we had on 2004, so perhaps we have to beam IR at a field element.

It will probably lie flat somewhere low (1-3 ft off the ground). I get this because the IR receiver points upwards at a slight angle if you lie it flat, which would allow it to receive IR from a robot-mounted source. I'm guessing it isn't upside down because it would have to be so high that you wouldn't easily be able to see what mode it is in.

Here's a complete theory, good and precise so I'll look kinda dumb when the truth comes out:
-Teams all received this piece early so that they can begin constructing the field element for their practice field, details of which will be put up on the frc_decgift site soon. The field element will respond to IR emissions to cycle through modes (possibly colour related, judging by the rainbow cable), which will be indicated on the front to judges or teams via the LEDs. These modes will change some form of action on the field, which will be revealed at the kickoff.

15-12-2007 18:35

JaneYoung

Re: pic: Game hint

Oh dear, Libby, you still have to study, no 2 ways about it.

FedEx, thank you! (I think )

15-12-2007 18:38

Libby K

Re: pic: Game hint

...but....but...Jaaaaaaaaane! I won't be able to concentrate!

15-12-2007 18:38

vivek16

Re: pic: Game hint

Gaa!!

Why couldn't it be a riddle like before sometimes?

Ill wait until our team gets one.

-vivek

15-12-2007 18:41

AndyB

Re: pic: Game hint

Is this a joke? lol. "Dean K" on CD? This looks like what will be inside the 2008 controllers.

Old Microchip: PIC18F8520
This One: PIC16LF87

I don't know if this is a game hint though. Give it some time.

15-12-2007 18:41

BuddyB309

Re: pic: Game hint

I think this year we can use monkeys, as long as they are somehow powered by the battery.

15-12-2007 18:42

Leav

Re: pic: Game hint

I'm sorry but there is just one thing keeping me sane at the moment:

there is no way this should be shipped outside the KOP. period.
well except of course as a game hint... but that is very costly compared to a simple post here at CD by lavery - so I deem it unlikely to be sent out early solely as a hint piece.

it is so costly to ship this out to all the teams, for a hint that's not really supposed to help you find out what the game is.

now that we have concluded it cannot be a hint (i hope ) we can also tackle other scnerios:

1)it is a field piece they added at the last minute: unlikely because they plan the game very well and wouldnt just forget something or add something in the last minute.

2)it is a piece for the robot they just developed: well there is still time to send it out to the various kickoff locations and distribute it in a very orderly way and make sure everyone gets one instead of just sending it off to every single mentor....

so sorry, but I can't rationalize this being what you say it is Joe

-Leav

15-12-2007 18:42

Tottanka

Re: pic: Game hint

What the heck?
ok st first i thought it might be Dean,now i know it isn't.
No way Dean would use JK/LOL/ put his AIM in public.

Antone considered it might just be a joke?
I mean, we haven't heard a single word from any official place yet... All those mentors might just be messing with us!

Either that, or Lavery has taken over CD...

15-12-2007 18:45

AndyB

Re: pic: Game hint

No way thats Dean... he didn't give an hour long speech

jk

15-12-2007 18:46

Libby K

Re: pic: Game hint

It's not. Promise.

Note the "jk LOL" in the edit. Also, he's waaaaaaaay too busy for CD. Unlike me...

15-12-2007 18:46

Leav

Re: pic: Game hint

read the "edit reason" .... it says "jk lol..." (i.e. just kidding laugh out loud)

also.... Liron it is really late what are you doing up! (it's 1:46 am in Israel now)

-Leav

15-12-2007 18:47

johnr

Re: pic: Game hint

did it come in a box? game piece?
what was packing material?
any printing on inside of shpping box?

15-12-2007 18:49

AndyB

Re: pic: Game hint

http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...%20_121007.pdf

15-12-2007 18:50

JaneYoung

Re: pic: Game hint

He was waiting for a game hint it seems. Why - are - you guys up?!

15-12-2007 18:53

Libby K

Re: pic: Game hint

I have a feeling Dave is just sitting at his computer going....




MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAH!!!!!

15-12-2007 18:53

vivek16

Re: pic: Game hint

you say IR sensors, I say gerbil sensors....

Could someone please enlighten me as to what the IR part of the 04 game was? It was stack attack that year right?

thank, vivek

15-12-2007 18:54

Leav

Re: pic: Game hint

well... I -do- have a test tomorrow... and I -was- studying ....

-----------------------------------

and Andy... don;t think you will be fooling anyone with the "user uploaded file"... you will have to try harder (look at the full URL..)
suddenly not so sure it's not legit.... :/


-Leav

15-12-2007 18:55

AndyB

Re: pic: Game hint

04 was Raising the Bar. No Clue what IR was used for.

I didn't upload it myself. Here you go: http://www.usfirst.org/community/frc...t.aspx?id=7600

15-12-2007 18:55

11Mort11

Re: pic: Game hint

oh well

15-12-2007 18:55

RyanN

Re: pic: Game hint

CHECK THE WEBSITE AGAIN!!!! IT'S UP!!!! WOOHOO!!!

15-12-2007 18:56

Tottanka

Re: pic: Game hint

em...
i be night creature. Especially when it comes to build seasn =]

This PDF doesnt tell oo much ..

15-12-2007 18:59

bear24rw

Re: pic: Game hint

okay... so now we can control our robots with a tv remote lol

15-12-2007 19:02

AndyB

Re: pic: Game hint

So now we know what it is..... what is the purpose?

Laser tag robotics?

15-12-2007 19:03

Ian Curtis

Re: pic: Game hint

I don't think so. Going off Bongle's earlier post referencing Dave Verbrugge's joke from 2006, perhaps this will allow teams to replicate some field condition. I.E the field will change the color of the lights randomly every X seconds. This will allow teams to replicate this at home.

15-12-2007 19:04

Leav

Re: pic: Game hint

well I have to go to sleep now... I really do...
but I will sleep soundly - because I have confidence that when I wake up this case will be cracked wide open and you guys will have the solution to this vexing (pun most definitely intended) riddle

-Leav

15-12-2007 19:05

Tottanka

Re: pic: Game hint

ooh could be nice!!!!

15-12-2007 19:05

ADZDEBLICK

Re: pic: Game hint

At the end it says "Assuming a 12VDC supply, the power consumption of an idle FIRST IR board is appoximately 78mW." so could we assume that this will be going on the robot?

15-12-2007 19:06

AndyB

Re: pic: Game hint

Sounds like there could either be more robot interaction this year, or possibly a field that changes during the game.

15-12-2007 19:06

Tottanka

Re: pic: Game hint

no.
The green light also get 12VDC.

15-12-2007 19:07

bear24rw

Re: pic: Game hint

My votes for something like that..

15-12-2007 19:08

Synergy1848

Re: pic: Game hint

there was some sort of becon at the bonus balls that the robots could use ir to home in on.

15-12-2007 19:10

AndyB

Re: pic: Game hint

Could be that, or it could be something like a bonus ball or something being released at a certain time in the game. I like the chance of multiple colored lights though. Good thinking.

15-12-2007 19:12

Stu Bloom

Re: pic: Game hint

NO WAY that's Dean ...


DON'T FORGET ... FedEx is a major sponsor - they probably shipped these all for free.

Also, I JUST recieved this FIRST email blast ...
NO QUESTION THIS IS A LEGITIMATE GAME HINT!!

15-12-2007 19:15

fimmel

Re: pic: Game hint

well the pdf was created friday december 14th 2007 at 3:39:46 pm by adobe distiller....nothing spectacular...the author though is kpilotte after a quick google search it turns out theres a photobucket account with that username http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v641/kpilotte/ and a stumbleupn account http://kpilotte.stumbleupon.com/ an ilounge account http://forums.ilounge.com/showthread.php?t=57728 and something promising is she had an @usfirst.org email address... http://www.sensorsmag.com/sensors/Se.../detail/314079 under more sensors please. from what i gather she is part of FIRST's sensor development team.

kinda crazy lol

may be useful idk

15-12-2007 19:20

steve0o

Re: pic: Game hint

ahh!! It works!!

15-12-2007 19:21

Dan Petrovic

Re: pic: Game hint

I'd imagine it's a field element that they need shipped out so remote Kickoffs can have an accurate field set up on Kickoff day. They release material lists for field elements before Kickoff for that purpose.

I guess we will be seeing some changing field elements this year.

Only 20 days left....

15-12-2007 19:23

Ryan Foley

Re: pic: Game hint

Kate Pilotte was a member of the 2007 GDC, and I would imagine she is back for 2008 as well.

Cool article, nice find.

15-12-2007 19:31

Gamer930

Re: pic: Game hint

Pretty sure this isn't a field element. . . Would be added to the robot. Each remote kickoff has their own shipping coordinator and field build team.

Nice find also fimmel :-)

My guess is there will be an IR Transmitter like they had for the bonus balls in 2004 Rasing the Bar, to tell the team what color mode they are currently in for vision lights.

15-12-2007 19:33

dlavery

Re: pic: Game hint

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAH!!!!!

15-12-2007 19:40

psyco_klown

Re: pic: Game hint

maybe we use Wii remotes cuz last year xbox360 controllers

15-12-2007 19:42

AndyB

Re: pic: Game hint

Infared transmitters around the field sending info to the robot maybe?

Maybe its the gamepiece hahah... that would catch us all off guard...

15-12-2007 19:48

ebarker

Re: pic: Game hint

Yes Kate is on the GDC, she works at FIRST and is one of our our heros at FIRST.

15-12-2007 19:50

Andy Baker

Re: pic: Game hint

Diversified Systems out of Indianapolis made the sensor boards (and populated the components onto the boards) for last year's Kit of Parts. The same guys who managed the build for those boards were judges at the Boilermaker Regional, the FRC Championships, and IRI.

It's great to see Diversified get more involved with FRC.

Andy B.

15-12-2007 19:51

AndyB

Re: pic: Game hint

water game.


... thought i'd get that out of the way....

15-12-2007 20:07

psyco_klown

Re: pic: Game hint

Look what i found on the Trossen Robotic's website http://www.trossenrobotics.com/store...-Remote.aspx:D

15-12-2007 20:09

galewind

Re: pic: Game hint

In my opinion, the issue with IR in 2004 was that the transmitter needed to be built by hand from diodes, etc, and there wasn't enough incentive in the autonomous period to try to work with it. Don't forget, it was also the first year that teams had the PIC (vs the Basic Stamp), so they had to learn a new programming language as well.

Infrared as a technology could be well-done in FIRST, if it's well-supported and people have time to play with it. I think this just may be what FIRST is trying to do. If it's a DIFFERENT technology, then it very well could be FIRST's way of trying to provide us with some info ahead of time (once the site is active).

15-12-2007 20:11

Re: pic: Game hint

It's showing an error.

See, FIRST must have a thing with killing our sleep... Because my brain is a bit too busy with speculation and designs to sleep now.

15-12-2007 20:13

bear24rw

Re: pic: Game hint

http://www.trossenrobotics.com/store...IR-Remote.aspx

15-12-2007 20:14

Kaushal.K

Re: pic: Game hint

If the IR-sensors are gonna b used for some sort of robot "ID" system (2 tell apart frend from foe) if the game was something like lazer tag (as suggested above) and to score/dock points based on who you hit..

just thinkin aloud here..

15-12-2007 20:23

Kevin Sevcik

Re: pic: Game hint

I just hope FIRST is smart enough to stay away from actual TV IR codes if this is a field element. And/or that teams will stick with odd buttons on DVD remotes. Given the existence of the Ninja Remote and the TV-B-Gone and all.

Mostly I'm worried about the impact of field lighting on these. I've seen some remotes that were remarkably finicky about fluorescent lighting near the receivers and all.

15-12-2007 20:28

fimmel

Re: pic: Game hint

just a note on that. the field lights are not florescent there regular incandescent (AFAIK Halogens) but standard theater / stage lighting. i doubt it will interfere with these little guys

...forest

on a side note... i my be a good strategy to use a TV-B-Gone or something lol

15-12-2007 20:29

Andrew Schuetze

Re: pic: Game hint

Remove the emoticon from the end of the address line and it works.

15-12-2007 20:29

Bongle

Re: pic: Game hint

Considering:
Once its mode is set, a single 5V output is sent via its output pins. The RC has 5V inputs.

It accepts power in voltages in a range that includes the voltage that the robot runs at.

It would be difficult for teams to wire up a IR emitter that emits certain codes, but it would be easy(-er) for them to mount this on the robot and receive codes from more complicated hardware mounted on the field.

Dave's joke in Atlanta in 2006 before the Einstein matches.

Changing my earlier guess:
I now guess that this will be robot mounted, and will receive info about field status from a high-mounted (hence the angle upwards on the IR sensor) source, akin to the green light in 2006 and 2007. Since it has 4 modes, then we can assume the field will have some item (probably in autonomous mode) that can be in a state that is in exactly one of up to four states. Each competition will probably have a 'training unit' where you can take your robot to get its IR sensor trained to recognize the 4 IR codes for the field modes, similar to how you could get calibration RGB data for the camera.

But the arena lighting will often be florescent, regardless of the field lights.

15-12-2007 20:46

Nuttyman54

Re: pic: Game hint

The first thing I think of when I see this is all the fun I had making Mindstorms RCXs talk to eachother.....

15-12-2007 20:46

cicib99

Re: pic: Game hint

yeah thats what i thought...

I'll guess anyway:

are we going to have to detect the different infared that will change the score value?

have fun programmers!

15-12-2007 20:47

Qbranch

Re: pic: Game hint

So here's what I'm thinking:

CMOS image sensors pick up into the infrared spectrum REALLY WELL. So, anything that ouputs any infrared will appear rediculously bright white on a monochrome or color CMOS image sensor. I think it might even work for CCD devices. Just try pointing your favoirite handy-dandy camera/camcorder at a television remote and push a button.

So... that gets you to a target... then when you're in front of it the decoder can tell you what it is. Sounds like a great extended autonomous to me.

Wow I can hardly wait now!

-q

15-12-2007 20:47

Tom Bottiglieri

Re: pic: Game hint

I would love to see robots talking to each other this season, but it's probably safer to assume these things will be getting signals from the field.

Can't wait to get my hands on one.

15-12-2007 20:52

Joe Ross

Re: pic: Game hint

It was in a padded envelope. The three items pictured were the only things in the envelope.

15-12-2007 21:09

BanksKid

Re: pic: Game hint

there would be no point in some IR device when changing a light every X seconds could be accomplished be a simple randomizer circuit (which isnt exactly simple) but you get the idea.

15-12-2007 21:13

hipsterjr

Re: pic: Game hint

does this mean I can stop staring at the "Woodies's game hint @ Atlanta " thread? There has been almost 30 post per hour on here
This is defiantly legit, but the question is now where do we go from here?

15-12-2007 21:13

edthegeek

Re: pic: Game hint

My musings on this.
A series of IR "keys" would be given to each team. 4 keys, one per LED. The keys are unique to each team.
The interaction with the field would go as follows. There are four stations that contain whatever game piece we will be playing with this year.We use our four keys to unlock one of these stations, one per station. The stations then release the game pieces and a set number of points are awarded to a team for unlocking a station.
This also releases game elements that can be used by either alliance to score (makes alliances balance threats and opportunities). The alternate strategy is totally shutting out the other alliance from reaching a station, thus preventing them from scoring anything, and then unlocking a station yourself.
This uses the relatively short distance of IR to its advantage. It forces teams to actually get close to the station instead of trying to unlock a station from long distance.

15-12-2007 21:27

Nuttyman54

Re: pic: Game hint

I get it! It's how they're solving the radio issues. We're driving the robots with TV remotes. You know...enter 32 into the channel changer to drive forward...Just imagine:

"32-98-101-13-7-20-57-32! No, 64! Volume up! VOLUME UP!"

-The previous has been posted for Methane of Team 190

15-12-2007 21:35

geeknerd99

Re: pic: Game hint

Human player couch potatoes?

15-12-2007 21:40

JaneYoung

Re: pic: Game hint

This is one of the funniest things I've ever read on CD. Awesome!

15-12-2007 21:43

synth3tk

Re: pic: Game hint

I don't have a detailed whatever made up, but maybe based off of Capture-The-Flag? I don't know. I'm just all fizzled up inside now!

15-12-2007 21:48

BanksKid

Re: pic: Game hint

you would.......

any way on a slightly more important note it would seem that thae fact that FedEx shipping has gone from express freight to regular freight for 2008 (hey i rymed) might have something to do with them shipping 1500 of these darned things....its on the first website if anyone hasnt taken the time to read the whole page about the shipping part of the manual beign released in december/maby the change of "grade" of shipping might be why it will be released in december.............

15-12-2007 21:49

BornaE

Re: pic: Game hint

Maybe we have to build a small autonomous robot that can be signaled with 4 commands.
The next 3 weeks are gonna be bad

15-12-2007 22:03

Blue_Mist

Re: pic: Game hint

All of these ideas are great and funny, but our team hasn't gotten ours or I would definitely know about it. We reside very firmly in California. Also, I can't get to it from the page "FIRST Robotics Competition Documents and Updates," the page it claims to come from. Sorry, I don't trust this hint to be true.

15-12-2007 22:06

vivek16

Re: pic: Game hint

well, there was an email from FIRST, the link is on the first website, and a photo of it with FIRST on it...

Believe what you want but I think that this is the hint.

jm2c, vivek

EDIT: FIRST doesn't have to link it from their webpage. The url doesn't have to be provided on the page "FIRST Robotics Competition Documents and Updates," for it to be under it...

15-12-2007 22:18

alex1699

Re: pic: Game hint

well IR stuff hmmm.. thats crazy stuff the field is going to be sending are robots to do stuff i think..

15-12-2007 22:21

synth3tk

Re: pic: Game hint

That's pretty believable. Maybe a part of autonomous that, when sent a certain code, they have to respond a certain way or go for the goal or whatever.

15-12-2007 22:27

JBotAlan

Re: pic: Game hint

I'm making two assumptions here, and with the logic to back them up, here they are:

-This isn't going on the robot. The speak of powering it from a bench supply or AA batteries proves that.

-The robots will not be emitting IR. Think of the mess debugging that would be. The judges would all have to have cameras fixed on each robot to make sure nobody was jamming the signal for everyone.

My guess:
I'm going for some kind of human player controllable field item. The HP gets a remote, points it at the field item and presses a button. The goal may change colors, but that's about all. It won't move, as that would be terrible for teams to construct, and awful to maintain during a match. I think it has to do with a vision target, as most teams have not figured out tracking yet, and FIRST wants us to.

Hmmm...I don't know...
Whatever it is, it looks fun!
JBot (counting down the days...)

P.S. I would like to think that this device will be mounted on the robot...it would be amazing to get signals from the field. Period switches, or different goals...hmm...I may end up being totally wrong all around. Whatev, but my sleep is totally gone now.

15-12-2007 22:31

Kyle Love

Re: pic: Game hint

I am finally, first time in 5 years now, not going to worry about the game hint.....and try to be uber suprised at kickoff when the game is announced...I'll just play Halo or something. As I have said many times before, yet again, Dave is out to mess with our heads, now by saying MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

15-12-2007 22:31

Michelle Celio

Re: pic: Game hint

So I'm imputing a crazy idea I came up with in an AIM Chat...

15-12-2007 22:34

IndySam

Re: pic: Game hint

I call Barbara Streisand on you Kyle!

15-12-2007 22:34

PhilBot

Re: pic: Game hint

Since the outputs on the cable are digital, it would make sense for it to be plugged into the RC's digital input header, but the pinout isn't compatible. No easy way to connect it directly, or with PWM cables....

As much as I'd love to see this on the robot.... they've made it hard to wire in.

It's also interesting that the unit has to be set up to "Learn" the codes that it's meant to respond to.... Do they really trust all the teams to "teach" their board the correct codes ???? Sure ... that'll happen.

BTW, if you think the IR controller is fun... what about the IR ball ?

http://www.hitechnic.com/ click on products and scroll down to IRB1004

15-12-2007 22:37

Akash Rastogi

Re: pic: Game hint

A lot of these posts are still talking specifically about the board itself. Note that past hints have almost never been about what the objects were or what was on the game hint. So, unless by some weird account Im completely wrong, the game will have nothing to do what's on the board.
Any others receive their boards?

15-12-2007 22:37

PhilBot

Re: pic: Game hint

Except that the +V on the RC PWM outputs is 7.2 volts which is in the specified range. (Just like the CMU cam)

15-12-2007 22:40

JBotAlan

Re: pic: Game hint

Wow, that looks incredibly amusing. But I don't think it'll make it to be a field element. Then again, someone mentioned pool tubes in the hint thread last year and I shot them down, saying they'd deflate like crazy (and they did... ). It's just, these are so breakable and the batteries...I'm glad I'm not a volunteer.

But I want one (or twenty...). My new camera processor should work nicely tracking them...

If only...
JBot

15-12-2007 22:43

JBotAlan

Re: pic: Game hint

Correct, but why would they suggest a benchtop power supply? I still think this is a field element. I'm sure I could be wrong, but FIRST would be giving us instructions on how to tap into that power source. There are teams that have no idea where to get power from without instructions. Remember how the CMUcam came with documentation stating exactly how to connect it? Those docs would have to exist for this thing. And maybe they do. Maybe I'm wrong. But I don't think so.

JBot (I need to stop posting...)

PS. I was going to combine my two posts, but cannot figure out how to delete this one. Is that functionality missing now? BRANDON!!! ;-)

15-12-2007 22:56

Akash Rastogi

Re: pic: Game hint

Ribbon cable-cable tv-tv antenna-antenna-tower

something to do with a tower in the middle of the field?
Notice how the 07 game had something to do with the '97 game pieces-tubes
Anyone think something similar could happen with the '98 game this year?

15-12-2007 23:02

alex1699

Re: pic: Game hint

i think this is a little obgect that has nothing to do with any thing buit the number 5 that after 2 minute of staring at it

15-12-2007 23:02

EricH

Re: pic: Game hint

I'm going to say this.

1. It probably isn't in the kit because A) FIRST got stuck on a game hint or B) it arrived too late, and FIRST decided to just send them out.

2. In 2004, the IR beacons, which looked something like this, were part of the field. This probably is not going on a robot.

3. I hope a riddle is released soon.

15-12-2007 23:10

JaneYoung

Re: pic: Game hint

FedEx has been a generous sponsor for FIRST. The shipping of these packages likely means that FedEx has been generous again. That's a lot of generosity for the game clue. To post a riddle would not be as costly or involve a sponsor(s) (FedEx, Diversified Systems, etc.) like this effort has done.

15-12-2007 23:24

DanDon

Re: pic: Game hint

The CMUcam2 also came with instructions on how to set it up with a bench setup...just something to keep in mind .

15-12-2007 23:30

BornaE

Re: pic: Game hint

they could have edited the instructions so that it won't have anything about the game and release the actual version on Jan 5th

15-12-2007 23:33

Kyle Love

Re: pic: Game hint

Halo can never be compared to her...NEVER lol.

15-12-2007 23:37

Grant Cox

Re: pic: Game hint

This thread has grown 5 pages since I last looked at it, so I didn't read the whole thing..

But I think this provides a possibility of a concept I've been interested in for a while - interactive autonomous. Robots sending messages to each other of positions, or actions, or whatever it may be.

I really like some of the other ideas people have thrown out though; interactive HP field element, "invisible" walls, etc.

15-12-2007 23:40

Elgin Clock

Re: pic: Game hint

KoP Engineer is another title she has apparently.
(Google knows too much about people these days. meh.)
http://www.thefabricator.com/Fabrica...ts-Donate-them


Zones. w00t! 2002 v2.0. Reusing game ideas is not a new concept. Sounds like it would be pretty amazing.

Seconded.



Does anyone have any clue what this thing would be used for btw in a regular project? I know it can learn remote codes.. but... i don't get why that would be useful in a project? Maybe that's the key question to ask ourselves from now until Jan 5th.

(I'm thinkin' the 99 cent (+ 5 dollar shipping) Tivo remotes that woot.com has been selling quite frequently in the last few months seem like a good deal right about now and something to invest in the next time they come up. )

15-12-2007 23:41

Kevin Sevcik

Re: pic: Game hint

Okay, so I'll toss in my speculation. I think this is in fact going on the robot. I don't think they'd send it out for teams to play around with just to put it on the field. Sending out a field element like this makes no sense, first, teams wouldn't need it to play with. A field item would be VERY specifically wired, configured, and used. You didn't need to play with the cold cathodes for the light target, you just wired them up like FIRST said. On the other hand, sending out the CMUCams early would've been highly useful. Second, putting a receiver like this on the field then assumes that teams are going to have some sort of transmitter on their robot. Which they don't have to play with and figure out.

Also, I am firmly convinced that FIRST is not so fiscally irresponsible as to design, burn, and build 1500 of these and then express them to teams around the world for the sake of a red herring and to give Dave a chance to sit at his computer going "MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAH!!!!!"

So, I am left to conclude that this goes on the robot to tell the state of something on the field in autonomous mode. I honestly have no idea what this might be, but consider ho interesting AIM high would have been if there were four square goals to hit with a target light in the middle. But a random goal was actually worth double points and you could only tell by using the IR receiver. So yeah, I don't know exactly what's going on in the demented minds of our GDC, but I'm sure they could come up with a way to make this useful to put on the robot.

15-12-2007 23:44

Nuttyman54

Re: pic: Game hint

Unfortunately, I'm not sure robot-robot communication is possible with these, as I can't find any information in the document that references the ability to send IR data.

15-12-2007 23:57

Binome

Re: pic: Game hint

Anyone dumped the firmware yet, maybe the manual decryption key is hidden in the hex.
If this ends up being just a cool toy to play with, I can imagine it making a good coprocessor board for FRC teams to get their hands on, without going to the trouble of developing their own.

15-12-2007 23:58

JPonzo

Re: pic: Game hint

OK, This board is too long to go look for qutes, so I'll just give what i'm thinking lol...

I think (credit to the 1/2 of you that have suggested this already goes here) that this may be a component to go on the robot that corresponds to something sending an IR signal on the field. Assuming that, though, I think that this piece will have its main function in autonomous mode.

As with the camera in previous years and the IR back in '04, various technologies have been thrown in for teams to play around with, but have only served as critical to the autonomous period. I think FIRST will follow this trend because, for some teams with few members, it is not always possible to devote the time and resources required to program these things.

16-12-2007 00:37

Frenchie

Re: pic: Game hint

What about a remote during autonomous that allows you to adapt auto to whatever is happening? Would make it slightly more interesting...

16-12-2007 00:43

JYang

Re: pic: Game hint

but then that's not exactly autonomous anymore... now if the robot had to figure out and adapt to whatever is happening... i think that'd be much more interesting

16-12-2007 00:49

Elgin Clock

Re: pic: Game hint

OK, so since I was bored, and looking at the pic of the board for quite some time.. I decided to google some random things and see what I can find.

The order of the D codes above the LED's is D2, D5, D4, D3 & then D1.

The number 25431 is the zip code for the town of none other than Levels, West Virgina.

Different levels of game play?
Different levels of the field like a lot of previous years?
Acting like a level & balancing our robots again ala' 2001?

Who knows? I just found it really random & most intriguing within this current brainstorming session we have going on here.

Also, on a more serious kind of note I guess, it seems to me that the included ribbon cable would be attached to the large black block at the bottom right hand of the board.

If we have that for putting code in or out of the board, then we need something to do the opposite as well right?

Can you fit 2 pwm cables side by side on the white block above the LED cluster?
Just a thought. idk.. I'm not electrically inclined in the least when it comes to this stuff, but spatially speaking, it seems like 2 pwm cables would fit there.

16-12-2007 01:01

synth3tk

Re: pic: Game hint

Levels, WV. Wow, you were bored, weren't you? You think it'd go that deep as to reference a zip code?

And to those who say FIRST wouldn't waste money on a game hint. No offense, but who cares? We're having fun coming up with ideas and designs to keep us occupied until the game is announced. And who knows, maybe our brainstorming will inspire the GDC for future games!

16-12-2007 01:04

EricH

Re: pic: Game hint

I'm remembering 2004 and 2005. The biggest complaint about these new sensors (IR and CMUCamII, respectively) was, "We don't have enough time!" So the auto modes were disappointing in terms of sensor use. The camera situation was fixed (sort of) in 2006 and 2007 by giving a little bit of warning in the hints. Now, they give us a programmable IR sensor as the game hint. Start playing with these now if you want an an auto mode advantage.

16-12-2007 01:05

JaneYoung

Re: pic: Game hint

The GDC pays attention to every aspect of FIRST and all of the constraints involved, including budget. Nothing is wasted. On any level.

16-12-2007 01:10

s_forbes

Re: pic: Game hint

Well, obviously there are going to be four different game pieces: boxes, balls, tetrahedrons, and some of these. They are each placed into four starting zones randomly after the teams place their robots. In order to know what piece your dealing with in auto mode, you have to read the signal transmitted by each piece's starting zone. After you pick them up, you have to stick them in a gigantic cube in the center of the field that has holes in the shape of each game piece (you know, like that toy you had when you were a kid...)

It's so obvious.

16-12-2007 01:14

Nica F.

Re: pic: Game hint

From what I know, we haven't gotten ours (contacted all the mentors). and we are in Los Angeles...

16-12-2007 01:16

JPonzo

Re: pic: Game hint

LOL.... and yet.... it could be......

Its soo simple yet soooo challenging!!!

my head hurts.... I'm done for the night lol.....

16-12-2007 01:19

synth3tk

Re: pic: Game hint

Yes, I know. I wasn't implying that they were.

Same here. I'm sure when I check tommorrow, there'll be 150 posts waiting.

16-12-2007 01:23

Arefin Bari

Re: pic: Game hint

Stu, neither I nor the other contact on team 1345 received this email or received a package. The same goes for team 108 (as of right now). Are there anybody else who received this same email as Stu?

16-12-2007 01:26

fimmel

Re: pic: Game hint

my mom (2nd TIMS contact) got the email....no package AFAIK yet

16-12-2007 01:26

JaneYoung

Re: pic: Game hint

I did. I'm the alternate contact for FRC 418.

16-12-2007 01:29

Nuttyman54

Re: pic: Game hint

I asked in the Email Blast thread if anyone had, and I got two confirmations, however I've been unable to reach the contacts for either of the teams I'm associated with to check with them.

16-12-2007 01:30

EricH

Re: pic: Game hint

330 got the email.

16-12-2007 01:32

dlavery

Re: pic: Game hint

I did!

16-12-2007 01:32

Pavan Dave

Re: pic: Game hint

Joe...I love your work. As a fan I would highly recommend you wear some protective armor before you go back to the 330 shop because as Russel Peters says, "Somebody gonna get a hurt a reall baadd!"

Dave...I love your work, but how did you get access to the usFIRST's ftp server?

I think Dave recruited Joe since Joe has quite an extensive resume. The website is legit which means its an 'insider job' and since only few people got the email [instead of everybody, because there is no "Blast"] I suspect that it is very odd. Also I doubt that it would be Dave and Joe's plan to post it since people will automatically think it false if either of them did but I assume [yes I know what happens when I assume], that they didn't want anyone else in on it....

If I'm wrong... Dinner's on me in Atlanta in 2009!

EDIT1 of many: I assume that to keep it sound legit, Dave also managed to get his 'insider' to send an email to a few select teams that have "trustworthy" people that don't have any history of anything other than superb [with the exception of Joe].

EDIT2: I hate you Dave/Joe. I was just about to go to sleep and I see this.... :$ ... Why must you do this to me?

16-12-2007 01:35

Arefin Bari

Re: pic: Game hint

Jane, I am the alternate contact for team 1345 as well. Would you please forward me that email? Thanks.

... is there anybody on the forum who is a main contact or the alternate contact for their team and didn't receive this email?

Dave, you are killing me here. But... I am not going to lose the bet. You won't see a post from me analyzing the "clue." Try harder. =)

16-12-2007 01:41

Pavan Dave

Re: pic: Game hint

We need an IP check on this ASAP, both registration address as well as the post address. We need to confirm this came from NDI or NH.

16-12-2007 01:47

EricH

Re: pic: Game hint

Nah...Already been shot down as a hoax. If it had come from this user, I'd be a little more suspicious. (For example, why would Dean have a rookie year of 2000?)

Oh, and I suspect you're giving up dinner in 2009 in Atlanta. The email was forwarded to the BeachBots by someone other than Joe. That means that a)this other person was in on it or b)it's legit. (Or said other person is a victim as well.)

16-12-2007 01:51

Barry Bonzack

Re: pic: Game hint

I think we have established with reasonable certainty that it is not real. I believe the account should be deleted when the moderators confirm this.



As for the new toy, I'm in the boat of believing the robots will be talking with each other, or having multiple scoring object that the robots get bonus points for telling on which to score. I thought "AIM High" would have been more interesting with 3 lights, one above each of the goals.

If this were a field element (I'm somewhat inclined to believe it's going on the robot), would coaches/drivers/human players be allowed cameras to see from where the IR is being emitted?

16-12-2007 02:07

Pavan Dave

Re: pic: Game hint

same. I was actually looking forward to that...

16-12-2007 02:16

neutrino15

Re: pic: Game hint

I am guessing that there will be stations around the field that give data to the robot.. And the robot has to carry that data to another station..
Or maybe the IR stations would tell the robot which side of the field they need to score in? Which goals to use? That would be cool.. Imagine if each team was assigned a color during autonomous mode via IR blasters?! And the robot had to interpret this!!

::edit::
I really like this guess
Post 108
I would love to see the human player able to manipulate the field with a remote!
:::::::::

Maybe.. I just hope that the game doesn't require constant use of the IR sensor.. If they do, everyone in the audience will bring their TV remotes from their hotels!


On second thought, the clues are never 100% accurate.. So maybe it just has to do with HEAT.. IR senses heat (it is heat!).. So let's just assume the game has to do with heat.. Flamethrowers anyone!? Giant incinerators!??!? WEIGHTED COMPANION CUBES!!!!!

16-12-2007 02:40

ChrisH

Re: pic: Game hint

There were also a lot of "noise" issues. IR reflecting of of the field endwalls confused a lot of robots that did get sensors working. I seem to recall our robot tracking a brick wall once. Actually I think we were using an EduBot for a test bed at that point. An auto focusing video camera could interfere as well.

I think the use of coding is intended to help reduce inadvertent interference like that from the video cameras. But that still doesn't deal with reflections and an object does not have to be shinny to be a good IR reflector. The only way to prevent reflections from being an issue is to not give those photons anything to hit.

16-12-2007 03:06

AndyB

Re: pic: Game hint

My best guess is the possibility of the IR sensors receiving the value of the colored light (red, green, or blue). However, correct me if I'm wrong, but it is possible to look for all three colors with the CMU camera without too much of a problem...

Please everybody keep in mind that these are sensors, not transmitters... they receive. not get.

16-12-2007 03:19

Stuart

Re: pic: Game hint

yes the S1 element is 100%(or at least 99.999995%) an IR receiver, Ive built too many LIRC circuits to not recognize that thing. Im guessing this will be used as a way for the robot to communicate with the field(2way) or for the robots to communicate with each other(again 2way). again this is why I love this time of year eggnog, colorful lights in the house(both of the visible and non flavors), and hints about what Im going to be spending every spare second thinking about for the next 2 months.

16-12-2007 03:39

987HighRoller

Re: pic: Game hint

I think this will take the place of the radios.

16-12-2007 04:19

Boydean

Re: pic: Game hint

Wow...Im just now seeing this. From this point on the days are going to become very long.

16-12-2007 05:29

Leav

Re: pic: Game hint

Official word says that Israeli teams will only get this at the kickoff.....

This should help you on the speculating side I guess... It can't be that critical to send it out early if the ~40 teams here don't et it till the kickoff...

-Leav

16-12-2007 05:54

neutrino15

Re: pic: Game hint

I doubt it.. IR needs a line of sight connection.

Hmm.. It would be cool, but why couldn't you just yell at the driver next to you? If this was in autonomous, it would be cool.. The only trouble I see with 2 way communication is that either a) teams would interfere with one another and b) teams could jam each-other's signal. I say 1way communication with the field. (field transmitting)

16-12-2007 06:01

JohnBoucher

Re: pic: Game hint

Random active goals on the field?

16-12-2007 06:33

Richard McClellan

Re: pic: Game hint

Wow, what a crazy game hint. I'm the alternate contact and shipping contact for 2158, and I didn't get any official email from FIRST I think I'll be checking my mail all day on Monday though to see if I get anything in my mailbox

16-12-2007 08:30

GaryVoshol

Re: pic: Game hint

Remember, there's 300+ teams out there without a robot yet - if they're going to make this thing "learn", they have to connect it to an external power source.

Did they really expect all the teams to program the CMU camera?

16-12-2007 09:47

skimoose

Re: pic: Game hint

Oh Yeah! I remember 2004, my first year mentoring with FRC. The IR beacons weren't hard to build, the problem was reflected light. The beacon reflected off classroom walls, linolium tile, even the black curtains of the school's stage. The receiver had an auto gain adjustment circuit, but anytime the robot got within 10 feet the circuit was unable to compensate for the IR intensity and the robot was lost.

As far as this little baby's use for this year. First, the operating voltage range is 7-15 VDC. Its definitely an onboard robot device. 7.2 volts = backup battery supply just like CMU and servos, but can also operate at 12 volts just fine so it can be used off main battery source. Also, since FIRST is giving specific idle and in-use power consumption data, this is for your power budget folks! A benchtop power supply isn't going to worry about consumption much. My vote is onboard robot and connected to backup battery circuit, and you'd better watch power consumption especially if this is being used with a CMU and/or servo pan/tilt mechanisms.

The device can receive four different signals, and has an input acceptance angle of +/-30-40 degrees. This is important! Also, the further off axis the sensor is the weaker the signal will be. Will this employ a reliability threshold like the CMU does?

I suspect this could be used for navigation purposes, probably in autonomous. If a device like this were mounted on a pan/tilt a robot could sweep the sensor around and pick up four discrete signals from the playing field, and using servo feedback, could navigate with some reasonable reliability other than the reflection issues. Another possibility, might not be navigation due to the IR reflectivity noted above, but simply to allow the robot to decide on which field orientation it should face. Four input signals = two endzones + two sidelines. Perhaps robot orientation has something to due with scoring or where to score the most points?

Time to mull this over some more....

16-12-2007 10:32

colin340

Re: pic: Game hint

i think first will take advantage of this some how
so you have to get right up to the goal ??

16-12-2007 10:34

colin340

Re: pic: Game hint

and doesn't this mean no more ir flash on cameras
if you ever staffed a fll comp you know what i mean

16-12-2007 10:38

Bongle

Re: pic: Game hint

The thing receives a coded series of blinks from an IR emitter. It isn't a simple on/off detector like the 2004 sensors. For the same reason your TV doesn't change channels if you take a picture of it, this will not care if someone makes an IR emission it is not trained to recognize.

16-12-2007 10:43

Milaki

Re: pic: Game hint

If you all want the link is up because I just looked at it and it gives you a PDF file that gives instructions on the IR sensor (yes it is one) or at least a IR Control Decoder Board

16-12-2007 10:54

Libby K

Re: pic: Game hint

It is fake, I assure you. I know i've said that, but with all the speculation I'm sure it got skipped over.


I like the 'random active goals' idea. A lot. a lot a lot.

EDIT: Also, I have received the email as the shipping contact for team 1923.

16-12-2007 11:24

Big Kid

Re: pic: Game hint

i know I'm a rookie and all this year but since someone suggested a IP trace i did my self the favor and ran a DNS trace and this is what my findings were.

The site's and the PDF file on the site's web registration is under the name of U.S. Fndn for Insp & Recog of Sci & Tech, which is none other then FIRST, the address registrated with the sites is 200 Bedford Street, Manchester, NH.

now, myself even with this information i have some doubts about the "hint"

16-12-2007 11:38

Jeff K.

Re: pic: Game hint

Was it even meant to be a game hint? But it could have to do with a field component, like an IR beacon. That would be cool.

16-12-2007 11:44

Big Kid

Re: pic: Game hint

accually it more like FIRST may be telling us that we will or might have to put that thing on our robots, if this is offical and not just some hoax, to be successful on accomplishing the main goal in this year's game.

16-12-2007 11:49

Bill Moore

Re: pic: Game hint

Reading the PDF, it references this board as a modified TinyIR2 from TaunTek.

Acknowledgement is also given to Vishay for donating the IR Sensors. The bottom series looks like the sensor in the upper right corner of Joe's photo. (I couldn't see the part ID in the photo.)

Does any of this help you electrical types narrow the purpose?

16-12-2007 11:49

AdamHeard

Re: pic: Game hint

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet......

but, Joe pulled off the canceled championship hoax in 2003.

So, I wouldn't put it past him for it to be a hoax, and if it is in fact real, the mischievousness of FIRST by sending it to someone known for a hoax is awesome.... perhaps Dave's doing?

16-12-2007 12:00

Akash Rastogi

Re: pic: Game hint

Maybe if its in boldface people will read it.
Come'on people, she knows Dean personaly, so I'm pretty sure she would know what she's saying.

16-12-2007 12:02

vivek16

Re: pic: Game hint

well apparently the envelope it came in said GAME HINT! ...

-vivek

my guess is that we will have different game pieces that send different signals, maybe two types of game pieces and then after each match begins they show which game piece which alliance will be using?

16-12-2007 12:19

JaneYoung

Re: pic: Game hint

Just a thought here,
If there are packages that are to go out to the main contacts or alternates, many of them would be delivered to schools most likely. Next week is the last week of school for many as the holidays approach. To create a hint that involves delivery, it would make sense that the information came out this early. Lots of logistics involved in this one.

16-12-2007 12:25

billbo911

Re: pic: Game hint

Just for the sake of argument, I'll bite.

I'm going to put two things together and see if we can get a little closer to the/an answer.

In Atlanta, Woodie said, "Just be careful about the stock market, with jello, gerbils, and K'nex blocks."

To me, the stock market is full of ups and downs. I won't touch jello and gerbils, but K'nex blocks..... Remember the three basic First scoring shapes.

Now, add in this new detector. It is a receiver, not a transmitting unit. IR in generates 100ms +5vdc pulse. Up to 4 discreet outputs.


OK, here is what my polluted mind comes up with.

A part of this years game will be goals that transmit an IR signal indicating where (think height) the goal is. Some higher, some lower (ups and downs). We will be using a rectangular or square scoring piece.

You can either manually position the scoring item at the right height, or, using the input from the IR transmitter, automatically (autonomously) position it.

My guess is they will not be using a 38KHz transmitter to limit the amount of reflected and false signals on the field. (See the PDF for the "Gift board", page 2 at the end of section 4)

OK, fire away and tear this apart, or, support this with solid evidence.

16-12-2007 12:28

EricH

Re: pic: Game hint

It's been brought up. Page two or three, if I remember correctly. There are, however, ways to verify (e.g., talk to one of the other Rosses.) The connection has also already been brought up. The fact that others have gotten this as well seems to indicate that it is not a hoax.

16-12-2007 12:30

IndySam

Re: pic: Game hint

4 Training the Chip
If you have successfully trained the FIRST IR board, but find that it does not respond when the remote is positioned more than a few feet away, the remote is probably not using a 38KHz modulation frequency. To solve this,
switch to a different remote (or setting on a universal remote) and re-train.


oooooo great find billbo. This indicates they expect it to be used from a distance not up close.

16-12-2007 12:34

henryBsick

Re: pic: Game hint

Autonomous use.
Field will have transmitter.
IR receiver will be present on each robot to recognize the field's signal then react accordingly:
-go to a certain area and get a certain game element?
-score pre-loaded game elements in specified location?
-defend opponents scoring area?



-The Sick Word
(waitin for a riddle)

16-12-2007 12:40

Robostang 548

Re: pic: Game hint

Ok, I don't really have any ideas or theories as to what this thing is for but I'm pretty sure that it is either going to be on the field or on the robot. What I'm wondering is if because teams are now using a KOP item that uses the IR spectrum, if there will be a rule in the 2008 manual that will be restrict teams from using other IR devices because of this. My team used an IR range finder for our autonomous mode last year and we have been talking about using one for next year. We've already spent a bunch of money on some newer IR range finders and this device may end up keeping us from using them. Even if we cant use them, this receiver is probably going to be an awesome part of next years game.

-Don

16-12-2007 12:42

Eric Scheuing

Re: pic: Game hint

CMD0? Are our robots going to be running around without any underwear this year?

16-12-2007 12:43

dr1008

Re: pic: Game hint

why cant it just be jan 5th?

16-12-2007 12:51

Big Kid

Re: pic: Game hint

sounds like a frendly game of robot basketball, seriously, used for launching basketballs into a net from a distance with the IR board reciveing info on how high and far the baskets are from the robot

edit: just a thought

16-12-2007 12:53

neoshaakti

Re: pic: Game hint

alright maybe the game will be playing a a hamster wheel shaped field that rotates horizontally
and in each ladder part of the wheel, there is are different colored game pieces that robots have to bring back to their home zone to construct some kind of wall
the stockexchange is on wallstreet (Ithink) ...which was historically built as the nourthern boundary of new amsterdam...
so maybe ure trying to build a wall out of game pieces to keep out ure alliance from your homezone...
idk might not be feasible for a 2 minute game...idk

16-12-2007 12:54

bear24rw

Re: pic: Game hint

hahaha

16-12-2007 12:54

Bill Moore

Re: pic: Game hint

Adam,

Agreed, Joe has either pulled off (or has tried to pull off) a number of hoaxes on this website. He has reached the point where he needs collaborators to accomplish these.

First, it is posted in "Extra Discussion" rather than in a real forum. Joe knows better than to post his hoaxes in a real forum. Also, why of all people was Joe (a noted prankster) the very first to receive this misdelivery?

Second, all the initial collaborators seem suspiciously close to Joe or to his team. Perhaps a case of "You lie, and I'll swear to it." But the circle of folks claiming to receive the phantom FIRST Email Blast has grown beyond Joe's influence. Either the Blast is real, or we have folks jumping on a "Me Too!" bandwagon.

The PDF document appears to come from the FIRST website. I doubt that Joe would take a chance by spoofing the FIRST site, so he would need some inside help to upload the document. NOTE: The document author is not fully named, it only lists the name "kpilotte", which was assumed to be Kate Pilotte. It is not difficult to change the "author" of a document, and lack of a full name brings this document into question.

But, to further cloud the question, the board that Joe has photographed, and the board on the PDF document are not the same. (Or some Photoshopping has taken place.) The "quality mark" on Joe's board is positioned slightly different than the one in the PDF photo. You also have to wonder why three fonts are used on the circuit board; one for the URL, one for the component layout, but the final part of the copyright text (FIRST") is in a slightly larger font than the beginning part. It would seem that when putting a copyright symbol onto a board design they would know who holds the rights.

Finally, Dave loves to see these things mushroom, and he will gleefully post his most devilish laugh as he watches all the lemmings rush over the cliff!

16-12-2007 13:04

EricH

Re: pic: Game hint

As far as I know, Joe has only tried to post one hoax. That one succeeded. The reason it is in "Extra Discussion" is because it was posted as a picture. Picture threads open in "Extra Discussion".
"Initial collaborators": I was suspicious at first. Then I started taking a closer look. I also have not seen the actual board. Part of the reason I'm thinking this is real is because of the too-large circle of recipients.
Joe has been known to fake the FIRST site, but this is far too real.
When have you known an Inventor drawing, say, and a part come out exactly identical? Two pictures of the same person?

And Joe is smart. He knows that some of us know where he lives (or can easily find out), and thus would have to keep the evidence.

16-12-2007 13:09

IndySam

Re: pic: Game hint

I think you are really stretching on this one. The quality mark will be different on every board and the difference in font size is not remarkable. Also Diversified systems using a different font for their URl would also be no big thing.

16-12-2007 13:13

MrForbes

Re: pic: Game hint

I got the very legit looking email and I don't know Joe. Huh...

16-12-2007 13:14

artdutra04

Re: pic: Game hint

Statistically, the bigger in scope a hoax becomes (specifically in the number of people required to carry it out), the harder and harder it becomes to successfully pull it off. This rabbit hole just goes too deep, and involves too much, to be a simple hoax.

1. Extra Discussion is the defacto place where all threads started about photos from CD-Media are located.

2. Unless someone hacked FIRST's TIMS system, how would you be able to spoof a FIRST Email Blast to every team?

3. The "Author" on Word/PDF documents is usually the person's username. Since her email address is the same name, this is the most likely scenario.

4. One was an initial prototype board (PDF image) and the other (the one teams receive) is the final version.

5. We may not be lemmings running over a cliff, but we certainly must make Dave's day with these threads. If I was on the GDC, I know I would find anything involving a game hint in a thread to be really amusing.

16-12-2007 13:18

MrForbes

Re: pic: Game hint

If I were on the GDC, I'd be quite pleased to see so many people so interested in the least little scrap of information about the game!

(and it would be a big bonus if the hint inspired some of those people to play around with robot programming and design concepts over their winter break)

16-12-2007 13:29

Kevin Sevcik

Re: pic: Game hint

Just to toss one more against the hoax theory, I just looked at the email headers on the blast, and they're exactly the same as any other, so it's an official blast. So at this point it's either legit, or Joe's one heck of a hacker with lots of inside help, etc. etc. So I think Occam's Razor should really put all the paranoia to bed at this point and let us get on with our rampant speculation.

So has anyone else wondered what the big white connector is for? I'd be able to make a more intelligent guess if I had the board in front of me, but I've a sneaking suspicion it's the programming interface. So if this was for reading a field element, setting up a robot would be as easy as plugging in a programming cable during inspection.

16-12-2007 13:29

Big Kid

Re: pic: Game hint

If you look closely the FIRST copyright font size is the same as DIVSYS's font size

16-12-2007 13:35

Mr B

Re: pic: Game hint

To me, the most reasonable explanation is that there will be some IR transmitters on the field that send dynamic game information to the robot which interprets it with this board. The field would transmit a code that activates one of the digital outs on the board which can then be used to redirect the gameplay. This opens up a whole world of possibilities both in auto and tele-game periods that go way beyond telling your robot what color light is shining. The game objectives could be changed either in a preset or random fashion - or even by the robots themselves. Consider a field element that looks like a bumper but acts like a switch, so that a robot could actually change the light color... or open a goal... or modify the bonus multiplier - any of which could be transmitted to your robot as new game information.

In 2K4, I got the vibe that the FIRST game developers had high hopes for the IR devices. Unfortunately reflections and interference (and the lack of available trig calculations on the robot) made them cumbersome to use. It was simply easier to navigate around the field using encoders and gyros. Since the new ones are transmitting information, reflections won't matter - they might even help. I believe that if this thing is real, and they get it to work, we will see this device for years to come as it adds a whole new dimension to the strategy. 2K8 is gonna be sweet!

16-12-2007 13:37

legomaster3945

Re: pic: Game hint

first of all i think this is not a hoax from first and that it is legit but not the whole story
just giving us some random object (ok so its not compleatly random they must have given it to us for a purpouse) without telling us much more is not much of a game hint
also if you look at the email (i cannot verify at this time whether my teacher has recived it yet (i know i had his cell phone number at one point in time ) so i cant reach him) but it says that this is the season for hints, but "keep your eye out for a December gift from FRC and the game design committee"
gifts aren't clues
they're gifts
so i think there will be at least a riddle coming soon
also another weird fact is that this email everyone is gettin is not listed here
1 other question
i am not 100% electronically knowledgeable but im not used to seeing red boards
could this colour reference more than just being there by chance
mabey we can expect as triangle(from first logo (its red )) as one of the objects in this years game
oh how i wish it was january 5th (im not rushing anything, i swear)

16-12-2007 13:41

Graham Donaldson

Re: pic: Game hint

Getting away from all the hoax stuff...

ASSUMING this is real, then...

Would that indicate that the GDC has given up on the CMUcam, since it was supposed to be able to calculate how far away the light was, since we had a defined height? Or is it that they want to use both elements??? And something tells me we won't see a game where you're firing balls at something for another couple years- Aim High was only two years ago.

THIS IS MAKING ME GO CRAZY!!! -

16-12-2007 13:42

lukevanoort

Re: pic: Game hint

Although I don't really think this is a hoax (possible, but unlikely), the header doesn't really prove anything. Spoofing email is really easy (especially if Joe has an accomplice who has an email address with FIRST (ie Dave Lavery (also a noted prankster)))

16-12-2007 13:44

Billfred

Re: pic: Game hint

It doesn't have to be projectile motion--imagine if there were five 2006-esque corner goals with values that fluctuated between 0 (or, even worse, -1!) and 4 points. Knowing which are which would be a huge advantage.

16-12-2007 13:51

synth3tk

Re: pic: Game hint

Well, technically the clue could be the gift, especially since it's from the GDC.

The email was not, indeed, posted in there, and it wasn't posted in the Blast sub-forum here, which perplexes me a bit, but not enough to cry hoax. Question: Did the teams who received the email also get the board, or vice versa? Or did you get one or the other?

Red, orange, green, and (yes) even blue electronic boards are often used by the industry. Though I don't remember the exact reasons for the coloring, I do know it's not a brand-spankin-new idea.

16-12-2007 13:54

JaneYoung

Re: pic: Game hint

I like this line of thinking. It is awesome.

Also, unless I've overlooked something from Joe's posts, there isn't anything that says keep it, don't take it apart (robotics, remember? - that's what you guys do).

Would it be helpful to have hoax thoughts in one thread and hint thoughts in another? Or just keep us all one big happy family?

16-12-2007 14:07

MrForbes

Re: pic: Game hint

thanks! I think that any game hints are a great way to get everyone thinking about this stuff, and having a nice highly technical one is that much better.

The big white connector could be used to connect power to the board, or used for programming, or who knows?

If you get the board, you could figure it out pretty easily by tracing the circuitry to the PIC and see what the function of the pins is.

16-12-2007 14:14

IndySam

Re: pic: Game hint

OK EE guys, what is the white thing labeled PB1?

16-12-2007 14:16

lukevanoort

Re: pic: Game hint

Pushbutton 1?

16-12-2007 14:16

EricH

Re: pic: Game hint

Doesn't need to be an EE--read the manual (which is now up at the site), that's the "learning" button.

16-12-2007 14:19

IndySam

Re: pic: Game hint

Thanks

16-12-2007 14:22

Branden Ghena

Re: pic: Game hint

Which part actually receives the IR signals, is it the piece labeled S1?

16-12-2007 14:23

MrForbes

Re: pic: Game hint

The white connector is most likely for programming the PIC. Seems power comes from the 10 pin header connector.

Yes, S1 is the sensor.

16-12-2007 14:23

vivek16

Re: pic: Game hint

@tawnos23 yeah it is. that big sphere/cube looking thing

16-12-2007 14:28

Pavan Dave

Re: pic: Game hint

... *sigh* ... Dave, Joe ... pick a night in '09.... I guess I have lost.

16-12-2007 14:34

vivek16

Re: pic: Game hint

lol

16-12-2007 14:46

AndyB

Re: pic: Game hint

Did a little more research on this.

Found this on wikipedia: "Levels was originally known as Levels Cross Roads because of its location at the intersection of four roads in north-central Hampshire County"

Could the game involve a sort of "crossroads", or very central location of gameplay? I'm almost thinking a gamefield like 04' with steps and a central endgame.

16-12-2007 14:51

vivek16

Re: pic: Game hint

This has been mentioned before but: It would be cool if there were different targets that you had to sense which was the right one using IR and then use that one. I am putting my money on that right now. Prove me wrong and get a penny and some pocket lint

thanks, vivek

16-12-2007 14:58

Grant Cox

Re: pic: Game hint

Our team received an email, but to the best of my knowledge we haven't received the board yet. It may still be in the mail, or our mentor may have gotten it and not told us yet, or whatever.

16-12-2007 14:58

MrForbes

Re: pic: Game hint

How about using a remote control to select one of 4 (or 16) autonomous modes after the field initialization?

I'd be playing with the hint board and last year's robot to see if I could make it do different things just by "changing channels" on an old TV remote (available at any thrift store)

16-12-2007 15:08

AndyB

Re: pic: Game hint

I don't think FIRST would take that risk, due to the fact that some moron with a universal remote sitting in the stands could probably alter the game...

16-12-2007 15:12

vivek16

Re: pic: Game hint

touche

16-12-2007 15:14

StephLee

Re: pic: Game hint

Wouldn't that only work if the moron's remote had been trained with the IR board? That's the sense I got from the user's manual.

16-12-2007 15:16

angelSAY

Re: pic: Game hint

Well guys here's what I think:
The IR board says "2007 FIRST". I think this means we could be using 2007's Inflatable Rings again.

16-12-2007 15:18

MrForbes

Re: pic: Game hint

That would apply to ANY use of the game hint board, wouldn't it?

16-12-2007 15:25

AndyB

Re: pic: Game hint

Good point.

16-12-2007 15:28

dtengineering

Re: pic: Game hint

My initial suspicion is that you are right about using the IR to switch to one of four possible auto modes after the field is set up, but I have a few other thoughts to add based on our experience of using IR remote controls and PICs to run mini-sumo robots for the past several years.

First of all is the issue of channels. With RF transmitters you can change the crystal or frequency synthesizer to transmit your signal on a specific wavelength, and tune your receiver to only receive signals transmitted on that wavelength. Pretty much all IR remote controls, as far as I know, operate on the same (or overlapping) wavelengths of light. Therefore everyone is "talking" on the same "channel".

To make the signal stand out from the background "noise" IR remotes flicker the LED on and off. 38kHz is the standard for the Sony IR protocol, but other brands use other frequencies. The receivers are tuned to only receive a signal that flickers at the correct frequency. Since these flickers all occur in the same wavelength, however, they can jam each other when more than one signal is emitted at a time.

This means that having robots controlled by IR signals coming from more than one source, when each source is transmitting at the same time, could present problems. (I believe someone mentioned the challenges in programming more than one Lego League RCX unit in a room at the same time and the need to control IR reflections.)

It is also much easier to buy a $4.00 multi-brand remote and program it to use a given IR protocol (IE the Sony Protocol) than it is to build a Learning receiver. (You can receive a Sony IR signal with a PIC, a PNA4602M, and 12 lines of BASIC code. Reprogramming the remote requires four button presses.)

So why a "learning" receiver... perhaps because (as suggested earlier) the receivers will learn a signal from the field crew at the regionals. This way FIRST could ensure that the signal and modulation they are using are not used by any commerical IR remote control units, making it less of an issue if people in the stands happen to have "IR keychain remotes" and such.

However it is also possible for the RC... when hooked up to an IR LED... to be programmed to emit an IR signal. All you do is pulse a digital output, really. Each team could be assigned a particular code (team number, perhaps), and would train the receiver to pick up on this signal so that they could test whether or not they were transmitting properly. Perhaps you score by transmitting your signal to a goal. But that kind of clashes with the whole "jamming" problem.

In any case, I promised myself I wouldn't get tied up over the game clue this year... congrats to the GDC for making me break that promise.

Jason

16-12-2007 15:50

KF987

Re: pic: Game hint

Did any one check the 2008 Blast Archive? I didnt see anything about a "December Gift" in there...

Keaton

16-12-2007 15:52

Nica F.

Re: pic: Game hint

They tell us rhyming riddles, post crazy images, and send us things to examine.
I have a feeling that next year the hint will be to stick your hand in a box like those Halloween games where you put your hand in dog food or something and you have to guess what it is. (but of course instead there will be distorted melted things that disappear after a minute just to make it more complicated. lol)

16-12-2007 15:54

ZachKahn

Re: pic: Game hint

Here are my sleep deprived thoughts.

In the User Guide under step 5. Operation it states the signal is the strongest in an angle of roughly +/- 30-40 degrees from the normal... Hmm staying on course, stay the course, something presidential, the president works in the oval office, alas! oval shaped game objects. - Game objects will be white considering the color of the White House.

Can be trained with a universal remote... a tv watching robot competition. Bonus points will be awarded to the robot that switches their tv to the Colbert Show with Dean Kamen being interviewed.

This is a receiving device and therefore I think that it has to do with strengthening our autonomous mode. For the past two years, FIRST has given us the option of tracking a green light. This may be an alternative or an addition to the process. The robot may receive a signal from a field transmitter and act accordingly. This signal could never come from any human operator for that would defeat the purpose of autonomous mode. The receiver would be programmed at the beginning of a regional event to correspond to the events specific transmitter.

Hmm IR is a sensor that reads a certain spectrum of light, light is always prominent during the competition, maybe there will be various light sources (4?) the robot will be able to utilize during a match.

Of course, this is all speculation. However, my final idea comes back to the remote control idea. I'm thinking about when a pesky neighbor has a remote to your tv and they change the channel while you're watching it. Just imagine a randomizer or FIRST official that uses this receiver to disable it or make it function in a different way. Dave will have a master remote to all of our robots!!!

Happy holidays everyone!!! 20 days to go.

16-12-2007 15:58

EricRobodox

Re: pic: Game hint

What if... since we all are making hypothesis... that the IR will be on each robot to tell them which period it is in, as in offense or defense or free for all, like 2006 game. Which may mean multiple autonomous modes... as the IR will tell the robot which state its in? Or it could mean that autonoumous mode is broken up into parts or autonomous mode may be different per match so that some times one team will be offense or one team will be defense.

I am so excited I can hardly finish up my last few college apps (4 left out of 15).

16-12-2007 15:59

DonRotolo

Re: pic: Game hint

defiantly indeed. Freudian slip?
Perhaps, but how to "send' that data once it gets there?
38 kHz is a standard modulating frequency for IR remotes, used by almost all manufacturers. The IR receive module from Radio Shack is centered on 38 kHz as well.
The idea is to filter out the 38 kHz Carrier (that is, demodulate the data) to dramatically increase the resistance to noise and stray IR. Any such circuit will have low sensitivity to carrier frequencies other than 38 kHz. Cable TV remotes generally do NOT use 38 kHz to avoid interfering with (or controlling) the TV/VCR/DVD/etc to which they are attached.
This assumes that sanity was the starting point... Alas, and sadly, this is not so...

-...-

What we know:
1. Not a hoax
2. Used for FRC 2008
3. Can be used to receive/decode up to 4 IR signals, and act upon them.
4. Compatible with systems on the Robot.
5. The team can pick (teach) the four IR signals...
6. It works from at least a few feet away.

Speculating, if it's on the 'bot, and the 4 signals are unique* to a team, then only that team** can do something with it - sounds like a remote version of the autonomous "version" switches many teams use.

Teams will need to change autonomous*** strategies after the field is set and teams are at the player stations, but before the match begins. This board allows that.

Don

* They get to pick the remote & buttons used for teaching, right?
** Hypothetically, two teams could pick the same remote AND the same buttons...but that's unlikely, and can be mnodified at competition anyway.
*** Or maybe change something fundamental during regular play, but I suppose the OI can be used for that...

16-12-2007 16:11

StephLee

Re: pic: Game hint

Changing your autonomous mode from the players' station - doesn't that come really close to defeating the purpose of the autonomy of it? If you need to change your autonomous at the last minute, a binary switch on the RC can do that very easily...

16-12-2007 16:15

dr1008

Re: pic: Game hint

i agree, it seems like way too much hassle for you to do something that 1 you should already have planned before the match and 2 it would be easier to just have a manual switch on the robot that you can change while setting it up for that match, there is almost no time anyways from when you set it up till when the match begins, so theres not much time or need to change your mind.

16-12-2007 16:18

Cooley744

Re: pic: Game hint

Wow. I'm really confused and my brain hurts. Watch this really be a hoax. lol that would be great.

16-12-2007 16:22

AndyB

Re: pic: Game hint

I agree. Seems like a lot of effort for so little purpose... Also, commenting on people's ideas of "robots going from station to station to get data to score points": would that not be the most boring game you've ever seen. Seriously, if that was the game, I'd cry. I can just see it now... everyone sitting in the stands and an announcer trying to sound enthusiastic about a robot getting data...

That's about as exciting as making a sandwich... or maybe thinking about making a sandwich...

16-12-2007 16:25

StephLee

Re: pic: Game hint

Probably thinking about it; seeing a robot trying to handle mayo might be at least a little funny, if not exciting...

16-12-2007 16:27

AndyB

Re: pic: Game hint

Haha, Subway is now a FIRST sponsor...

16-12-2007 16:29

Billfred

Re: pic: Game hint

Getting data would be a lousy game (though it would also be grounds for a nice fifty-motor drive, since you probably wouldn't need much in the way of an arm). But let's suppose there was a specialized field element robots had to negotiate to receive some information that is relevant to their interests. A box or area that robots had to stick the sensor into could make for an interesting test, particularly if that information can make the difference between a Good Robot and a Great Robot.

16-12-2007 16:32

AndyB

Re: pic: Game hint

I like the idea someone else came up with of using the infared soccer ball that was posted earlier.

A game piece involving infared would be more interesting... I don't know why you would need an infared sensor to use it though... unless you wanted to get to this game piece during autonomous mode...

Thinking about it, the real question we need to be asking is: why the need to go infared when we already have the CMUcam...

16-12-2007 16:34

vivek16

Re: pic: Game hint

YEAH!! Look at those 0's and 1's just fly into team xxxx's IR chip!! Yes ladies and gentlemen, they are moving at the speed of light! Aww, it looks like they got knocked over....

At least the game pieces wouldn't get stuck on the freaking flag

-vivek

p.s. It might be cool if the game pieces were identical in everyway except that they put out different IR signals. two goals: wrong IR game piece gets one point, correct IR game piece gets two points? eh... I need to do my homework.

16-12-2007 16:36

AndyB

Re: pic: Game hint

Hahaha, that is an advantage to a pretend game piece...

16-12-2007 16:41

DonRotolo

Re: pic: Game hint

No, not a water game, or a Jello game....but a MAYO Game!!

(Ewww).

16-12-2007 16:45

njamietech

Re: pic: Game hint

honestly, I can't get a clear idea of what this is used for.

but I wonder if they are leaving out an item left in the kit. Such as a transmitter perhaps?

Perhaps we will be able to interact with other robots without harming them. (like lazer tag).

One thing I have noticed is that we are forgetting that FIRST may have left other parts relating to this device in the kit and secret.

We should probably take into account the possibility of items kept secret.

16-12-2007 16:45

WillItBlend

Re: pic: Game hint

if you notice, it says shes from from virginia on stumble upon, and maryland on ilounge. but nice job sherlock.

16-12-2007 16:48

AndyB

Re: pic: Game hint

I'll say it again... this IS the game piece... get your circuit board harvesters ready!

16-12-2007 16:52

vivek16

Re: pic: Game hint

if so, I hope these are cheap and more robust that them tubes

-vivek

16-12-2007 16:56

WillItBlend

Re: pic: Game hint

Ok, so basically, I would have to guess this in fact is what will be in the KOP, but considering you only get one end of the wire in this "hint" there will be a complete set in the '08 KOP. What? Like 20 more days now?

16-12-2007 16:58

Aren_Hill

Re: pic: Game hint

Interesting. This makes me think of the Mindstorms RCX in the fact i've used it as a jammer to stop people from changing the tv channel away from the one i'm watching, simply by telling it to send message 1-10 and repeat. That completely jammed the remote from getting any response out of the tv.

My thoughts are this will go on the robot to respond to how the fields setup.
And being able to use any tv remote allows you to emulate the actual field.
Im picturing a large transmitter (or several small ones preferably) placed around the outside of the field that send messages to the robots be it autonomous or normal gameplay.

16-12-2007 17:00

vivek16

Re: pic: Game hint

@willitblend

LOL I think that it would blend...



-vivek

16-12-2007 17:02

WillItBlend

Re: pic: Game hint

Oh btw I believe the other end of the cable is an exact replica, so maybe thats how FIRST saved money on shipping these out, they just snipped these in half lol. Considering it will have a replica opposote side, there may be some piece that was not included in the hint but will be included in the KOP. The part may either be a field element such as a ball, or a part placed on the robot. If no other part will be in the KOP, then obviously this IR thing will be installed somewhere upon the field, and this thing will in fact be used to train the bot to adhere to any autonomous controls on the field. I hope that made sense.

16-12-2007 17:02

WillItBlend

Re: pic: Game hint

rofl

16-12-2007 17:04

Josh Fox

Re: pic: Game hint

haha ever since I've seen that site ive broken that out at every oppurtunity... and it was all thatks to Dave's post on another thread i can't recall...so on behalf of me and my group of friends I thank you for another inside joke...

[start insane conjecture] maybe this is an elaborate plan to keep us away from our computers playing with this while the real game hint is released! or not [/conjecture]

16-12-2007 17:07

vivek16

Re: pic: Game hint

Nah, didn't you hear? Dave isn't even in the GDC this year.

-vivek

EDIT:

EDIT2: You know you are addicted to FIRST when you have been sitting here on the gaem hint page for 7 hours on a sunday...

16-12-2007 17:10

Simon Strauss

Re: pic: Game hint

We are given a rainbow ribbon wire for an infrared receiver, am i the only one who thinks the absence of ultra violet means something?

perhaps ultra violet is supposed to clue us to some sort of sun related theme or game piece.

16-12-2007 17:20

Blue_Mist

Re: pic: Game hint

That's incredible, two pages came up in the twenty minutes that I was reading all the posts that came up overnight. And at least 16 members looking at this page. For what I originally intended to say, 766 hasn't gotten our package or email yet, or our contact is unavailable.

16-12-2007 17:22

vivek16

Re: pic: Game hint

well, it is a sunday so our school is closed and mail/fedex doesnt work on sunday? correct me if im wrong.

-vivek

16-12-2007 17:23

WillItBlend

Re: pic: Game hint

XD You know youre addicted to first when Chief Delphi is on your FireFox bookmarks toolbar.

16-12-2007 17:24

EricH

Re: pic: Game hint

Correct.

16-12-2007 17:30

vivek16

Re: pic: Game hint

waait a minute... Is that piece of paper in the picture smaller than 8x11? I hope so. Other wise those led's must be huge!

-vivek

16-12-2007 17:53

vivek16

Re: pic: Game hint

in that case, Most teams that have not gotten them might have not gotten them due to the fact that fedex doesn't work on Sunday. Give it a few days before assuming its a hoax guys.

-vivek

16-12-2007 17:55

Richard McClellan

Re: pic: Game hint

But how can it be an official email blast? I'm the alternate contact for my team and did not receive an email. I've received every other email that has been sent to frcteam@usfirst.org, but not this one I want one of these things soooo badly now....

16-12-2007 18:09

vivek16

Re: pic: Game hint

ok, Im going to get off CD for a day or two until our team can confirm this thing.

-vivek

16-12-2007 18:12

fimmel

Re: pic: Game hint

or your homepage for firefox xD

16-12-2007 18:12

teh_r4v3

Re: pic: Game hint

That white 6-pin connector looks like it might be a standard ICSP connector, used for programming the PIC. This opens up the possibility of loading custom code onto the board, but I have a feeling that FIRST won't allow that.

16-12-2007 18:14

Aren_Hill

Re: pic: Game hint

Oh and Kate Pilotte was in charge of the 07 K.O.P.
our team 1625 and 111 wildstang attended a sensor expo summer of 2006.
While we were there I knew she was hunting around for sponsors so being my curious self i kept a close eye on who she talked to .
The second day of it however we had our oh so brilliant minded animator (also my arch enemy ), was the only person who could go and he didn't keep an eye on her!! so if he had payed attention that day we may know the exact background of this thing. CURSE YOU PETE!!! (buddyb309)

16-12-2007 18:14

Donut

Re: pic: Game hint

Ah, another fun game hint (or what appears to be one) only a few weeks before kickoff, just to torment us all further. Who else loves the Christmas season?

Now, my weigh ins on some previously mentioned ideas as well as my own...

1. Although cool, I don't see this as an inter-robot communication device. Each alliance would be limited to only 4 signals they could send between the robots, and for them to mean anything, there would have to be a universally adopted code between all teams in FIRST. Every team would have to know that receiving a COM0 signal means "head to left side of field", "score gampiece", "inflate clown balloon", etc. To be honest that seems like a rather boring use of signals, as only four commands for the whole alliance doesn't give many options in terms of what to do.

2. Is this the end of the CMUCam? With the success and usefulness it's gained in more recent auto-modes, I don't see the camera ever leaving competition permanently, but I do think FIRST could take a break from it. The camera has already been mastered by a few teams, and alot have it working, even if the rest of their auto isn't up with it. I see a departure from cameras for a few years in favor of IR challenges, such as back in 2004, so everyone has a challenge again. Then once we've all figured this one out we may go back to the cameras, combine them both, or go on to something else new.

3. If FIRST does actually intend on using remote controls with these (not just as a test method), they will have to supply their own special controllers at competitions. Otherwise the risk is too high that two teams will bring the same remotes and use the same buttons, which would guarantee interference. Human players directing robots with remote controls would be interesting, perhaps a section of the field will be obscured from driver view or will have driver control removed so that only the remote may operate the robot? I hope such a system wouldn't be implemented in autonomous mode, as this would defeat the point of it (something about no human control...).

4. I keep having a leering suspicion of something akin to a game suggestion I made last year, involving goals with lights above that didn't turn on to indicate which alliance they scored for until autonomous began. Imagine four goals on the field each with an IR emitter that doesn't activate until autonomous begins. Two goals send out a signal indicating red goal, while the other two send out signals to signify a blue goal. Which goals score for which alliance are random each match, making a dead reckoning autonomous potential suicide in which you score 20 points for your opponents. Visual alliance indicators are then revealed after autonomous so teams that don't attempt to find the signal may still score in operator mode.

Unlike 2004 when teams had to figure out which emitter they were looking at themselves, FIRST is already giving us the tools to distinguish between multiple IR transmissions on field. Sounds like they must want us to use it for something, all will be explained on January 5th, but I really don't want to wait quite so long.

16-12-2007 18:19

Tottanka

Re: pic: Game hint

That souns very cool. I really hope it's something like that!

16-12-2007 18:25

rspurlin

Re: pic: Game hint

I'm one of the alternates for our team and I did receive the email. I checked the message headers and it does appear to originate from FIRST. It will be tomorrow before I can check at the school to see if we've received a package.

I don't think this is a hoax, although how relevant it will be to the 2008 game is yet to be seen.

16-12-2007 18:28

Akash Rastogi

Re: pic: Game hint

Vivek, we all know that doing this is physically impossible.
Anyone thinking Wii nunchuck controlled robots?

16-12-2007 18:31

Tottanka

Re: pic: Game hint

How about Guitar Hero guitars controlled robots? How cool would that be!

16-12-2007 18:36

ggoldman

Re: pic: Game hint

Hey CD!! HAPPY HOLIDAYS!

I have a cool idea (which probably is a couple years away in terms of FIRST actually doing it..but MAYBE it will be for this year.)

FIRST becoming economical....VIRTUAL GAME PIECES

Even though FIRST usually has their game pieces at least partially donated by supplier partners, a very interesting concept to me would be virtual game pieces.

Imagine a game in which there are four locations on the field with integrated IR signal emitters that give out a red, blue, green, or yellow signal (for example) when a robot comes up to it with their IR receiver.

Once the team is within range of the receiver, the signal is picked up by the robot and a beacon (maybe like a LED light on the robot) lights up the color given out by the IR signal. This is equivalent to a Virtual Game Piece.

Bringing the virtual game piece to the correct colored goal scores a point.

Advantages of this idea:
1) no need for game pieces....(Saves LOTS of money for teams and FIRST)
2) instant score board updates (since it is all controlled by the IR signals)
3) Game is different every time since you might not know which color you will get at each station.

Disadvantages:
1) Not sure if we will have IR transmitters too...to send the goal the scoring info.
2) Unlikely that FIRST will ever get rid of a real game scoring piece...this might be used for a bonus or big point objective.


As always...I am probably over analyzing the situation...but thats what I do best

-Gabe G.

16-12-2007 18:37

vivek16

Re: pic: Game hint

sigh... I guess you are right.

-vivek

16-12-2007 18:37

lukevanoort

Re: pic: Game hint

cough

16-12-2007 18:39

vivek16

Re: pic: Game hint

while this would be pretty cool: rookies would have a harder time with it maybe. It would be WAY less interesting to watch from an ordinary nonfirster's point of view.

-vivek

16-12-2007 18:39

Josh Fox

Re: pic: Game hint

Wii want to play... wii want to play very very badly

16-12-2007 18:48

RKElectricalman

Re: pic: Game hint

maybe 4 LED's mean 4 team on the field as opposed to 6!

meaning possibly a 2v2 instead of a 3v3 or maybe even a free for all with 4 robots?

So 4 unique commands for 4 unique robots?... maybe?


*Edit* 4 "receiving" LEDS + Error LED *edit*