21-03-2008 09:25

Freddy Schurr

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

This is one of the interesting ideas I ever heard of in the FIRST world and I am proud at what your team is doing. Hopefully this experience will be better than it was last year and your team will even more from this event.

21-03-2008 13:42

Mike Harrison

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

I cannot help but comment because this still confuses me, but to each his own i suppose... or her own, whatever I guess i just don't get taking only the girls... do you ever take only the guys? What makes it fair to take the girls only but not the guys only. How come you can take all of the girls and everyone applauds you, yet if i suggest taking only the guys i'm a sexist pig?

21-03-2008 14:15

yodameister

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

I believe that the premise is to make sure that the girls get a "chance" to participate fully in the competition. I know that there are a lot of teams that have girls that are assertive and are fully active members of the team (building, driving, pit, etc). But many girls on teams are unsure of their abilities and therefore not willing to step forward and assert themselves to try the jobs that they may want to attempt. The sad reality (as I see it) is that girls are often relegated to other duties by the boys to do things that "only girls" can do. They are asked to hand out buttons, cheer for the team, scout (in the stands and pit), and other duties. Without the boys, the girls are given the chance to see what it is like to take on a typically male role.

21-03-2008 14:39

Mike Harrison

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

This clears up a little why i am confused, I just can't relate to this team because the females on our team are assertive and take leadership positions. Mechanical, electrical, PR, all headed up by girls. So if what you are saying is true then all i have to say to girls that feel this way is: there's no reason to feel inferior. It's as simple as that, guys may be more aggressive and such, but most guys also don't think with their brains 80% of the time. Go out there and show people that you are just as good at stereotypically "guy" jobs as guys are.

I'd also like to point out that female engineers are more attractive than all of the football cheerleaders combined (nothing against you cheerleaders out there, just my girlfriend is going into engineering )

21-03-2008 18:49

jgannon

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

Before anybody sends this thread spinning out of control, be sure to take a look at last year's thread first to get a better feel for what 842 is trying to accomplish:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=56504

21-03-2008 19:24

vivek16

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

I wish we had enough girls on the team and the funding to do something like this.

FIRST is about inspiration. We inspire those who did not know they needed to be inspired. I didn't join FIRST because I wanted to be inspired, I joined because it looked cool. We were a rookie team last year and I was a freshman on a dedicated team of 5 so I kind of had to step up and not be shy. FIRST made me more outgoing and willing to try new things, whether I thought I needed it or wanted it (and I am glad).

Until you go to a competition and do a task (that is stressful like driving, pit crew, programming, etc not say, watching matches or just hanging out with your own friends in the stands or in your pits) you will not, in my opinion, fully experience FIRST.

I can see how this may seem sexist to guys who have very outgoing girls on their teams that fully participate but when they are less outgoing (or all of the high stress tasks are taken up already) they will not be as inspired unless you give them a chance. I mean REALLY, REALLY give them a chance.

-Vivek

I do not mean to offend in anyway, I am just stating my opinion.

23-03-2008 01:21

Mihai

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

I think people should receive positions based solely on merit.

I have noticed that girls seem to have a predisposition to public relations because it's English related and avoid other areas, but that's because they choose to. It's not like the guys that join the team join knowing how to use every tool and how to create an awesome robot while the girls come in clueless. Everyone starts from the same position and they develop in the fields they choose.

If you're not aggressive enough to get the started role in my mind that isn't a good reason. If a guy had the ambition to stick his nose in and learn more/faster/better then a girl he should have the starting position, and vice versa.

Where is Jacob (the Dragons - 1991) anyway? He was all over the original thread.

I'm interested in testing a "Leave the girls at home" proposal at the next team meeting...if you guys don't hear from me in a while, this is my farewell.

23-03-2008 01:25

EricH

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

In the hospital again, same thing as last time.

23-03-2008 01:50

MrForbes

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

Great job, girls (women) of 842! here's a short video...you were having fun...we could tell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7ebeSD9cSQ

23-03-2008 01:59

ReaperGoat

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

out of curiosity, because you take "just the girls", do you make sure that ALL the girls who go are able to 1)answer all of the judge's questions, 2)fix the robot if it breaks, and 3)have an extensive knowledge of each subsystem on the robot? also, do you mix up who you have in the stands and who you have in the pits?

23-03-2008 02:30

Cait1070

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

I definitely noticed this team at the regional. I come from a permanently all girls team myself and I was excited when I heard it announced that there was another all girls team present. I think it is cool that some of the girls got to step up and take charge on your team but I also think that maybe teaching the girls AND guys to take equal leadership and responsibility for the robot would have been just as good.

23-03-2008 03:39

falconmaster

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

The girls did all the roles. The ideas is to give the the chance without any subliminal effect from male peers. The mere presence of guys would affect the "experiment". So to answer you question, they talk to the judges and fix the robot but they don't necessairliy have an extensive knowledge of each subsystem, but they learn it on the fly, in the heat of battle. The team still has the saem mentors. The female mentors have the dominant role here with the male mentors in an assistance or supportive role. They learn a tremendous amount very quickly. On a side note the girls got selected for a finals alliance and made it to the semifinals! They also won the Kliener Perkins... award!

23-03-2008 03:44

falconmaster

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

You also have to take into account that ours school is 93 percent hispanic. In the hispanic culture women have a much harder time being assertive in male dominated roles. This is an added obstacle for our girls. It is easy to say they should just be assertive and another to do it in our cultural environment.

23-03-2008 03:45

falconmaster

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

Thanks for the video! It was great to see it!! You guys are the best!! Hope to see you again soon. Don't forget to sign up for NURC!!!!!!!

23-03-2008 14:08

JaneYoung

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

Hey 842!
Looking forward to hearing about the experience and what you've learned this year!

Jane

23-03-2008 21:09

MrForbes

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

Glad you liked the movie, I though you would!

Also on the ride home today Steven and Gary and I figured out some neat ideas for the NURC, and we also talked about two of us going up to Vegas this Saturday to see the regional. We'll see if mom will let us go

24-03-2008 14:36

falconmaster

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

If you go, we will share the hotel room with you! Save some bucks, The rooms are already paid for!

24-03-2008 14:38

falconmaster

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

If you go, we will share the hotel room with you! Save some bucks, The rooms are already paid for!

24-03-2008 14:45

falconmaster

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

We are still debriefing....
Overall, it had some similarities, and some differences. It was again a great experiences for the girls and the guys were even more eager for the girls to have this opportunity. They made it to the semifinals! They improved the bot as well. More later.....

24-03-2008 15:01

falconmaster

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

sorry I duplicated

24-03-2008 15:18

Guy Davidson

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

I'd definitely recommend making the trip down. You'll get to see some of the finest Overdrive east of Hawai'i and west of Michigan Moreover, the more often I look at the list of teams, the stronger it seems. There will be some powerful shooters and arm-bots on display, for what could either end up as a very exciting (if robots live up to expectations) or a somewhat boring (LA-like, I guess) elimination rounds.

24-03-2008 15:34

JaneYoung

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

I hope debriefing also includes - getting some rest and eating ice cream.

Semi-finals rock!

24-03-2008 22:37

falconmaster

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

We go to Vegas this weekend, Ice cream sounds good!

24-03-2008 22:53

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

I really find this idea interesting. But to ask a question... Do you ever do a "Leave the Girls at home" trip? I realize it's a nice idea to support affirmative action, but in order to truly promote balance and equality, you need to apply both...

By celebrating differences, and requiring an administrative level action to bring girls into the experience, you're acknowledging the differences, and conditioning the youth that affirmative action is the way that they'll move forward. I realize this topic has been beaten to death in last year's iteration of this, but I really can't stop myself from asking.

So was there a male only trip? And if not, why?

24-03-2008 23:12

MrForbes

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

The whole point of affirmative action is that it counteracts the existing imbalance and inequality. In a perfect world there would be no need to leave the boys at home for one competition, but we don't live in that world (yet).

24-03-2008 23:20

seanl

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

ahhh.. this explains it all i was wondering why there was 2 all girls team at LA this year. you guys were awsome and it was fun competing with you guys.

24-03-2008 23:38

N7UJJ

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

I’m reluctant to weigh in on this, but here goes.

I understand the concerns of the posters who worry that we are selecting drivers and such by gender rather than ability. It would certainly put a team at a disadvantage, and on the surface, seem unfair to those with greater ability. But….

1. We really do want to “change the culture” and while it seems a little Pollyannaish, we rally have seen a profound effect on our school, state (and a bit of influence nationally and internationally) so a little social experimenting which may demonstrate how to include more underrepresented minorities in STEM activities seem to be warranted.
2. Because of the fantastic backing of the Arthur M. Blank Foundation, we will be going to 4 competitions. Taking the same students to all four events means a lot of school would be missed, so most kids will go to 2 or 3 events.
3. No professional team plays just it’s beat players all the time. A five member basketball team is always moving players in and out as well as having even their best performers “sitting out” a game or two. FIRST Robotics is no different for us. We have always shuffled our driving team. That way even sophomores can gain experience even though the seniors may be the best. We are always looking ahead a year or two.
4. We did not field the school’s girls team. We do not have a girls team. We have the Carl Hayden High School Falcon Robotics team. Last weekend, the coaches only fielded the girls. We don’t have two teams. Last week’s team did an excellent job and made it as far as the semifinals before being beaten by an unbeatable (at least in L.A.) alliance.
5. The girls were getting better every match. Experience enhances ability. That’s why we sometimes play sophomores and juniors and let the seniors sit out a match or three. To do otherwise, would be short changing those with potential, but little experience.
6. The girls have learned a lot. The boys have learned a lot. I have learned a lot. We have demonstrated that when the women are placed in the same environment and allowed to gain experience, at least this time, the results are similar.
7. We plan to have a more comprehensive report at the end of the season.
8. If we can get the funding, we want to do this again next year.

We realize this is just our philosophy and there are many other fantastic ways to run a team. After all, we need to inspire everyone, especially those who need a little more encouragement.

Allan

24-03-2008 23:56

MasterChief 573

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

I haven't read the whole thread but part of it and the first one and have to say, unless every single guy on the team agrees to not going or all the guys go to a regional of their own than this just doesn't sit right with me. I think it would be better to get a full team involvement throughout the season. We have about eight girls on our team and each of them had some part in building this robot, and although almost all of them scout at the competition that is because all of them are first our second yearers and have decided that's what they feel best at. If these girls want to be more involved members of the team I don't see what is stoping them from doing that throughout the season. Last year one of our senior girls on the team was a build leader and she did a phenominal job at managing a lot of the guys and seeing our appendage from last year to completion. I think that if you encourage these girls to go for what they want to do througout the season it would be a much better way of handling things.

25-03-2008 00:15

MrForbes

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

On our team, that doesn't seem to be enough to get the girls as fully involved as the boys...and I think the same is true with 842's team. I don't know why that is the case, but it does seem to be a fact of life.

25-03-2008 00:55

falconmaster

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

Short of giving away a report we plan on presenting later in the season....We have found that there are always teams that say that they have assertive female members. We the get postings that claim that it is not fair. Girls should step up and do what guys do. From my observations, girls and guys are not the same. They are different and it takes a different approach to get girls take on the roles that they might want to but feel that they are not "entitled" to. So they say that they want to do the scrap book or the scouting. If however you make all the positions available then they don't have the fear of displacing or having to compete against a guy. We see that that the girls that have stepped forward in a coed team quickly withdraw to the stereotype roles when they make an error or screw up. They go back to their comfort zones because its comfortable and the don't have to challenge guys for them. When we give the girls the unfettered time to experience guy roles they do improve and the fact that our team made it to the semifinals in LA shows it works. To posters that say that we should do a leave the girls at home version...that is what most teams are doing all the time. We even do it as well. The guys compete fiercely for those roles, and we tend to role back to standard team roles. We are however giving the girls a chance to develop and challenge the guys for the traditionally male dominated roles. Normally we put the best people, regardless of sex, in the roles they best perform in. We are merely trying to provide a training ground where the girls can have an opportunity to bloom like the guys do. How does a girl know if they can drive in a competition under pressure unless she tries it. Driving in practice is not the same. We have the luxury to do this by having three regionals and one nationals to compete in. We have had many team discussions and while it may not seem possible our guys are all very supportive of the girls and fully agree to allow them to experience the FIRST experience in all its forms. They feel that the girls too can then appreciate what the "guys go through". We also feel that it makes our team stronger, you are only as strong as your weakest member. Squirrel said it best, its a fact of life.

25-03-2008 01:07

MasterChief 573

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

I'm sorry if I seem a little harsh but this all seems a little off to me. If these guys are ok with missing a regional (which I can honestly say none our guys would be if they wanted to attend) then why don't they just encourage and motivate these girls to be in key positions on the team instead of "being in competition for them" as you put it. It just doesn't add up to me. I personally am against the idea of any team member being excluded from a competition they would want to attend no matter what the circumstance. If these guys are willing to compromise in that way, I don't see why they wouldn't be willing to compromise in a way that makes both guys and girls equals throughout the season and gives them the roles they want.

25-03-2008 01:25

falconmaster

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

Every team can do what they think is right and fair. Our guys think going to two regionals and Nationals is great and they think it is a great opportunity to let the girls do all the roles on the team to get the full effect. We see it as FIRST describes, change the culture. We are changing the culture of our team by understanding that we need to run our team like this, giving the girls, that the guys even subconsciously, don't give because of the nature of the differences of our genders and gender roles. We truly believe that we are not missing out on anything. In fact its just the opposite. It is not about the robot nor the competition. It is about the interactions and the life changing experiences. By giving the girls a chance to play all these roles, we are including our girls in the experiences that most teams never do. We are a better team for it, and we are creating more life changing experiences as well. Doing the scrapbook or scouting to me anyway seems to fall a little short of a life changing experience. They need the stress and competition as you can only get in a FIRST type of event with all the time lines and the seemingly impossible tasks to be experienced first hand by as many of the team members as possible and we are doing that. How many guys do the pr and scrapbook or do scouting on other teams, I know there are some. Compare it to the number of girls.
As we mentioned earlier in this post, we will present a report later in the season
Isn't it interesting that our guys don't have a problem with this?

25-03-2008 08:48

JaneYoung

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

A couple of thoughts -
a. who, in FIRST, is a well-known scientist or engineer and a woman, that comes to our minds immediately?
b. who are our 'super stars' in FIRST that are women who are achieving the mission and goals of FIRST, that come to our minds immediately?

As FIRST continues to mature as an organization with alumni established in successful careers of their choosing/training and educational background - more women will be recognized for their work, efforts, and contributions.

Whether we like it or not, right now there is a lack of women in the fields of math, science, engineering, technology. FIRST is in process of changing that - but we have a way to go. Teams can and do help create change. It is an honorable mission, an honorable goal. How teams go about creating change, opening doors to the world of science and technology, are as varied and exciting as the teams, themselves.

842 shares their experiences with us here in ChiefDelphi and in their team website. They have shared their robot development, their Chairman's submission, their year in the FIRST experience. They also share their mission and their participation in FIRST as a team making a difference, creating change. This presents opportunities for all of us to think about, explore, and celebrate.

25-03-2008 09:08

Andy Baker

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

My sincere admiration goes out to team 842 for stepping up and doing this. Not only does it take courage to implement this sort of culture-changing effort, but it takes even more guts to come on this public forum open themselves up about it.

They didn't have to tell us, and they don't need our approval to do this. But... they do, and we learn from their efforts.

As a fellow mentor, I am inspired by this. For those of you who "don't get it", "don't understand", or think it's "not fair to the boys", you need step back, think a bit, and read what Fredi posted above.

Go 842!

Sincerely,
Andy Baker

25-03-2008 09:35

N7UJJ

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

Our local NPR radio station, KJZZ, did a report from the L.A. regional about our team of women. You can hear it here

25-03-2008 14:39

EricH

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

That might not work. You need to understand a few things about this team's culture.

1) Many (not all) of the students are Hispanic. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it can result in some "different" dynamics. Understanding Hispanic culture (in general) can prepare you for the next point...

2) In general, in Hispanic culture, women are subservient to men. There are exceptions, yes, but this is an "in general" statement.

3) Because of 2), the girls on the team will likely not take those positions if there is a guy in contention for them. That's where your statement falls apart.

So, 842 has devised a unique way of countering this by bringing only the girls to one event. This forces the girls into more of a leadership/robot-side position. If the team approves, I (not being a team member) can only say, that's how they do it, I can't find any fault with it. (Or, if I can, I talk it over with team leadership. I don't see anything wrong with this approach.)

25-03-2008 14:49

falconmaster

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

Thanks Eric, I could not have done it better myself.

25-03-2008 16:39

Britt

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

Well if you think about when men and mechanics are together they are like one. Most of the time the girls want to be involved but are shy and don’t want to ask a male team member to show them how to do something. Team 842's normal driver is a male. By only taking the female team members it puts the responsibility on the girls. It's a learning experience for the girls because they can’t depend on the boys they have to figure it out and learn to fix it. It’s putting science and technology into the minds of females. Its hard for a female to survive in a mans robotics world. We are not trying to change the whole computation just get girls more involved.

25-03-2008 18:41

MasterChief 573

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

Thanks for sharing that info with me, it makes this a lot easier to understand and accept. Regardless of my opinion I respect that this team is choosing to address this in a way that it feels will be effective.

31-03-2008 14:58

Kmo

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

Being one of the girls that went on this trip to LA I would have to say that it was a life learning experience. My first time joining robotics I started out as a scrapbooker because I didn't know much about building a robot or putting together a electric broad or anything else like that. What I knew was how to be creative and that was who I became for my first year on the team. I didn't start taking up other positions on the team until last year at the San Diego Regional, there I realize how important it is for a women to get more involved with science and technology. I say this because a women can gain so much, from learning how to build to pr. There they learn how to work under pressure and how to deal with stress at a critical moment.

My experience from LA was exhilarating. My main job on the team was to be the driver, but when I wasn't in a match I was talking to the judges and to the media or who ever came by. Sometimes I was helping the other girls make changes to the robot, and this was all on the first day. On the Next two days I was more focus on driving, going to other teams coming up with the best strategy, talking to the judges and the people that came by to see the robot that asked questions that came to mind. I never thought it would be this challanging; to be able to drive, to be able to talk to others, to be able to repair the robot in only a couple of minutes. I understand what most of the guys on our team have to go through now and what it takes to be just as good as anyone else on our team.

I guess I can see how others would say it's unfair to the guys because on their team both male and female are equal, like it doesn't really matter what gender you are just weather if you are good at what you do or weather you are wanting to learn how to do certain things that interest you.

I want eveyone to know that I appricate everything my mentors went through to make this happen, this really was a life learning experince, I'm sure not only for me, but also the rest of the girls that came on this trip.

My thanks to our mentors

31-03-2008 16:48

falconmaster

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

Don't forget to thank the boys........

01-04-2008 01:54

Kmo

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

I have read the post and yes I'm a little bias as my daughter is on the team and went to LA. I have notice that she has more confidence, understanding and a desire to not only to be more involved with the team but is more interested in science and technology. She want to help to change the preception of what women can do in engineering, sceince and technology.

OOH-RAH !!!!!!!
Carl Hayden, Falcon Robotics, Freddie, Dr. Cameron, Karen, Jerry, Jim and all the mentors, parents, and the boys on the team.

Glenn Morris
Proud Parent of two 842 members

From Kelly
My thanks to boys goes beyond words

01-04-2008 02:19

Matt H.

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

I feel very conflicted posting on this thread. When I became club president this year one of my agenda items was female participation. Perhaps one of the things I most quickly learned was that simply encouraging people to go for it and to be involved does very little in terms of results. I could tell the boys to let the girls have a hand in the projects or encourage the girls to find their own projects, but eventually the girls would inevitably end up in our business area rather than the fab shop.

I found that the best way to remedy this was to simply get a group of girls tell them I needed a part built in x hours and that was their job. When given a "trial by fire" such as this they would excel and doing as such has helped them to become more integrated members of the team. Carl Hayden has taken this philosophy to the next level by having a girls only regional. Having seen those girls I also admired how quickly they learned and improved upon the robot in the pits.

On the converse side of the argument I am very strongly against affirmative action and would prefer to see something along the lines of regulating the boys out of the pits or off the drive team for one regional. This I believe would be a much fair way to achieve the same effect.

04-04-2008 02:34

Kmo

Re: pic: We Left The Boys At Home II

Remember you would have to consider the fact of how many students can be taken out of school at one time. Yes that would be interesting to see, but that takes out the whole point of an all girls trip. The trip was meant to push girls into doing something they normally don't do. Sure you can hand a girl a tool and tell her to start working on the robot or any kind of project, but that doesn't necessarily mean that she would follow through. Telling someone to do something is much different from the person actually wanting to do it. If the girls on the team have some kind of motivation I'm sure they would be willing to do whatever the guys do.

Tell me what is FIRST all about? It's about changing the culture, what we decided to do goes beyond to what most people would find unfair. Maybe on some teams the girls are as equal to the guys, that you don't even look at what gender they are just weather they are good at what they do. But that always true on others. Can you honestly tell me that there are more than three girls that work on the robot or something that does not involve scrapbooking, scouting, cheering for the team, and/or going around collecting buttoms or any other item from other teams.