11-08-2008 17:54

artdutra04

Re: pic: 6WD Riveted Frame Development

As long as you use enough of them, rivets work just fine for holding frames together, especially since you also have the top and bottom gusset plates. For some of the more high strength areas, you may want to stick with 3/16" steel rivets (such as where the front/rear frame members intersect with the longitudinal drive train members), but for things like the top and bottom gusset plates, 1/8" steel rivets work just fine.

Unless you need something to be removable, use rivets if at all possible. It makes it so much easier when you don't have to figure out how to get a wrench into the chassis to tighten nuts. ;-)

Otherwise, this definitely looks like a good chassis and drive train design so far.

11-08-2008 18:31

bigbeezy

Re: pic: 6WD Riveted Frame Development

Now I do have one question.

Is that U-channel or Rectangle Tubing where the wheels are mounted? Now someone with more experience with cantilevered wheels correct me, but don't you need a place for 2 bearings to support the axle? If it is indeed tubing then never mind.

11-08-2008 18:57

Billfred

Re: pic: 6WD Riveted Frame Development

1618 did rivets in the frame this year, 1/4" aluminum ones to match the kitbot. We ran them rivet-for-bolt, 72 in all, and had zero problems in testing and spirited running at Chesapeake. We had bumpers on three sides (the rear bumper was dropped after we realized how much of a pain in the butt it was to attach when we were already compliant), which seems to help by all indications.

Last year, we used 3/16" rivets to hold together the two members of our arm's tower. We used two on each side--you can see them on one side here, just beside the radio antenna. Even with questionable mounting of our tower, particularly in the rear, the rivets held together fine through all of Palmetto and our off-season demonstrations. The rivets sheared on one side following a particularly nasty tip at Brunswick Eruption and would've been easily fixed had I not left the team's rivet tool 700 miles away in South Carolina. (oops.) At that point, we just enlarged one hole to 1/4", stuck in a kitbot nut/bolt, and ran off to the next match.

Just two points of data--your mileage may vary, but I will note that rivets are the win.

11-08-2008 19:52

R.C.

Re: pic: 6WD Riveted Frame Development

Team Pink this year riveted their whole frame together, we are planning to rivet the frame and then weld. Ask why?

This frame here:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/img...4fa048a3_l.jpg

If you rivet the whole frame together with 90 degree angled aluminum. We took about three weeks to weld this whole thing. If you rivet it first, the welding is a lot easier for our welders. Meaning that you can have a frame welded in about 4 days.

11-08-2008 21:41

Jonathan Norris

Re: pic: 6WD Riveted Frame Development

From this picture it looks to me like they are cantilevered, which worries me. Also it looks like the wheels are height adjustable in some way, I would love to have a closer look at how you are approaching it. Hopefully there is more support on those cantilevered then it looks, but overall it should be a solid frame that can take the beating your drivers will certainly put it through.

12-08-2008 00:17

MrForbes

Re: pic: 6WD Riveted Frame Development

1726 did a riveted chassis this year, made from 1 x 4 x 1/4" pultruded fiberglass channel, and .060" sheet 3003 aluminum for the full belly pan and top gussets. We used 3/16" rivets from the hardware store. It worked just fine. Also we used cantilevered axles, mounted directly to the fiberglass, and had no problem with them. There was quite a bit of design work in this chassis, so fabrication and assembly was straightforward.

The cantilevered axles worked because they were mounted with flange nuts with a 1" diameter bearing surface, and the fiberglass is thick enough that it would not flex or be damaged by the load. There were no lightening holes in any of it. Fiberglass is about half the density of aluminum, so the weight of 1/4" thick fiberglass is about the same as 1/8" thick aluminum of the same size.

I think there are some pictures on the NERDS photo gallery...

12-08-2008 01:54

M. Mellott

Re: pic: 6WD Riveted Frame Development

The four main frame members are 1/8" thick aluminum U-channel, 3" x 1".

I'm hoping the additional views I posted better show/explain how the axles are supported:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/31782
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/31783

The bearing block is the same for all six wheels. We intended on making several sets of blocks with the axle hole located at different heights, both with and without bearings. With this, we could conduct experiments with wheel height, demonstrating what happens when all six wheels are at the same height, or when the center wheel is lowered by a 1/16" or 1/8", etc. One frame, many options.

Thanks for the questions...

12-08-2008 02:03

M. Mellott

Re: pic: 6WD Riveted Frame Development

I took a look at the pictures and noticed you notched the U-channel to insert the end into the end rail similar to this design. However, there appeared to be nothing joining the four fiberglass frame members together except for the bellypan and the four sheetmetal gusset plates on top of the four corners, with nothing actually inside the corners. Is that correct?

12-08-2008 03:24

s_forbes

Re: pic: 6WD Riveted Frame Development

Correct. It was plenty strong enough with just attachments on the top and bottom, any more brackets would have been unnecessary and too much work to put in. Thin aluminum channel may require more bracing if it's constructed in the same way, but the fiberglass is nice and stiff.

12-08-2008 08:50

MrForbes

Re: pic: 6WD Riveted Frame Development

In the design M. Mellott posted, it appears that the attachment at the web of the channel is probably not necessary, since most of the web between the wheel and the end of the frame has been cut away. Also the bending load is highest at the flange of the channel.

I'd suggest not cutting out the side frame members for lightening...leave them strong, and you should be able to eliminate the corner pieces that connect the webs of the channels, while enlarging the top and bottom gussets so that they make good-sized triangles.

12-08-2008 15:32

Madison

Re: pic: 6WD Riveted Frame Development

Our frames are typically assembled with a sort-of combination of press-fit construction held with rivets. In 2008, we inserted 1.5" square tube into channel with a 1.5" inside width; a tight fit. We then fixed it in place with four 1/4" rivets -- two on top and two below.

It holds very well.

Are you concerned about the torsional stiffness of the channel that contains the axle mounts? Rectangular tubing in the same application would be quite a bit stiffer.

12-08-2008 16:17

MrForbes

Re: pic: 6WD Riveted Frame Development

The open channel seems to me to be easier to work with than tubing....and any twisting of the main side members could also be reduced by adding a lightweight channel crossmember across the middle of the chassis. This could be integrated into the structure that holds the electronics, or placed right next to the transmissions.

12-08-2008 16:29

M. Mellott

Re: pic: 6WD Riveted Frame Development

You make a good point. I'm always concerned about the overall strength of the frame. I believe that the base frame is the foundation of the robot, and a team should never have to worry about it as far as maintenance--too many other things need attention and, barring a catastrophy, should be rock solid. We've always had solid frames, but often "solid" translated to "heavy".

I suppose we were trying to be a little different (as far as our past designs go), not only with the use of U-channel, but also the added weight savers. This is why we were hoping to develope the design over the summer, then construct and test/abuse during the fall once school starts up.

12-08-2008 16:52

IKE

Re: pic: 6WD Riveted Frame Development

We have been doing a folded sheet metal riveted frame for 3 years now. While in general I really like it, this years game was particularly rough on it. The high-speed nature of overdrive combined with the less than compliant barrier wall made for some interesting bends in the frame this year. Our material is also a lot thinner as we use mostly 0.060 and 0.050 AL to make our frame.
If you do riveted joints, make sure that you check them periodically after major impacts and/or the end of the day. After a lot of wear and tear, then tend to loosen. Not that I would stop using them, but they do become a maintenance item. Also don't use the largest rivet that will package because having an up size option at competition is handy should they become loose.

12-08-2008 17:25

MrForbes

Re: pic: 6WD Riveted Frame Development

Using fiberglass for the main frame members is really nice....no dents....

(although some of the team members are talking about using wood next year!)

12-08-2008 17:48

M. Mellott

Re: pic: 6WD Riveted Frame Development

Everyone,

Thank you very much for the comments/questions--keep 'm coming!!

12-08-2008 18:57

Mike Nawrot

Re: pic: 6WD Riveted Frame Development

Fiberglass is a great material for this application. Just a few things to keep in mind while working with it:

1. Gloves. Fiberglass dust can itch and sting if it gets in your skin.
2. Goggles (a must no matter what you're doing)
3. Dust mask/vacuum. Fiberglass dust likes to float around in the air if you don't have a vacuum held to whatever you're machining. Inhaling the stuff is not recommended..
4. Pay attention to what kind of stresses you're putting on the fiber glass. We used fiberglass for our ball holding mechanism frame this year, and in the scheme of things, it worked great. The one issue we ran into with it (apart from the constant irritation of the fiberglass dust), was the fibrous nature of the material. Since fiberglass is a series of glass fibers held together by an epoxy, drilling holes in the material leaves exposed fiber ends, allowing the material to be pulled apart. This caused some failures in our design, resulting in tubing that was split down the middle. There were two fixes to the problem that we looked into. The first (and heavier solution) was to put reinforcing plastic inserts into the tubing to reduce the stress on the holes. The second (and less precise) solution was to epoxy any machined edges to reseal the fiber ends. Of course, this issue is only a problem under certain conditions. We had plenty of machined connections on the fiberglass that held up fine through the whole season. The key is predicting and observing the stresses that the parts will be under, and designing accordingly.

As for rivets..

The super structure for our ball gathering and shooting mechanism in 2006 was 1/8" aluminum with 1/8" rivets. Only after two regionals, championships, and two off seasons of constant abuse and the robot flipping over onto the super structure did the rivets start to come out. So riveting is definately a viable solution. As for maintenance, pop rivets are usually pretty easy to remove by simply drilling them out with a drill of the same diameter (i.e. 1/8" rivets removed with 1/8" drill bit) and using the hole from the shank as a center.

When using aluminum, I find that it's good practice to use aluminum rivets. Since the steel is harder and generally stronger than aluminum (except for the rare cases like 7068), using a steel rivet can mar the aluminum. 3/16" aluminum rivets should be sufficient for this design, especially with the number that you appear to be using. I could be wrong though, as I've never actually constructed a riveted drive train. If you decide to use steel rivets, use washers between the expanding part of the rivet and the aluminum to distribute the force over a greater area.

12-08-2008 23:58

s_forbes

Re: pic: 6WD Riveted Frame Development

I might also want to mention that we also used rivets on our mechanisms this year, and we did have several shake loose. These were mostly in the high stress points in our launching mechanism and lifting mechanism (which took a severe beating). They were all easy to replace, but it took us a couple of attempts to realize that if the plates aren't clamped together very well when you rivet them, they will shake loose again in no time.

All the rivets in the frame stayed tight all season though!



(a mild escapade off topic)

This is interesting, where did you get your fiberglass from? The stuff we use drills and cuts very cleanly, and I've never experienced any irritation from it (though I think some team members found it to be itchy). We get ours from creative pultrusions, http://www.creativepultrusions.com/ )

13-08-2008 01:40

Mike Nawrot

Re: pic: 6WD Riveted Frame Development

I've looked into creative pultrusions before, and I attempted to convince the superiors to order from them, but it was easier to order from mcmaster just because of the account we've had established there for years now. It's of notably lower quality, which might be the cause of the splitting effects we experienced. It still cut and machined quite cleanly and easily, but when we had too much radial force on some of the holes it basically destroyed itself. This was partially the material, and partially because of the location of the holes on the tube. That said, those problems would not have occurred with a metal of any sort. So really, the point I'm trying to make (in a rather roundabout way ) is to remember that fiberglass is just different from aluminum, and to design accordingly.

As for feeling the irritating effects of the fiberglass dust.. Everybody is different. People with thicker skin don't seem to have problems with it. I wish I could say the same for myself. Haha

13-08-2008 09:00

MrForbes

Re: pic: 6WD Riveted Frame Development

I can easily imagine having problems with attaching hardware to fiberglass tube...we have only used channel, angle, and I beam shapes, which are much easier to deal with.

You do have to be careful with design, taking into account the properties of the material you are using.

For round tubing, clamping might be a safer way of attaching it.

13-08-2008 12:27

Mike Nawrot

Re: pic: 6WD Riveted Frame Development

It was square tubing. Sorry for the ambiguity.

13-08-2008 14:19

Tom Line

Re: pic: 6WD Riveted Frame Development

We got a particular chuckle out of you guys during the playoffs at MARC. Three of your students had pulled your robot over to the side of the staging area and were beating the poor thing. After a few minutes, someone went and got a hammer and you really started pounding on it.

Whatever you were beating on must have decided to cooperate, because your robot worked brilliantly after that!