19-02-2009 02:03

Jonathan Norris

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

it can...






at IRI

19-02-2009 02:36

Akash Rastogi

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

Dang, loophole! Well, all the more reason to apply to IRI this year.

19-02-2009 03:00

Uberbots

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

if all 3 of those robots show up on the same playing field, that would be an epic match.

i doubt there would be a moon rock left unscored 0=

19-02-2009 09:26

Lil' Lavery

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

There hasn't even been any video of 217 posted on Chief Delphi. Nor has a single match been played by any of the three robots, or even anyone period.

Chill out, let the season play. Who knows? Maybe it'll turn out that corner dumpers and human players is the best strategy of all.

19-02-2009 09:49

Jared Russell

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

This.

Good looking machines and track records aside, these teams have as many wins and losses as everyone else right now.

19-02-2009 10:17

JesseK

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

These teams all do simple things well. Such is great engineering, don't get me wrong.

But other than 1114 saying that they've learned how to do sheet metal, I don't really see any of the three teams doing something new & hard to each individual team. I suppose what I'm curious about is, what have the three teams learned this season that they'd care to share? Are you guys doing anything special with the 900K of data you're receiving back from the robot? Did you try anything new <to you> mechanically?

I think possibly the biggest thing the rest of us can learn from this is the coopertition side of things. When teams work together to design things rather than going it alone, you can really come up with magnificent machines. I am one of the many at this point who are totally humbled by watching videos of such dominant machines.

19-02-2009 10:19

ComradeNikolai

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

I never thought refrigerators could look so intimidating.

Really, though, was FIRST sponsored by GE or some other company this year?

19-02-2009 10:23

Jared Russell

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

I am jealous of the refrigerator that looks like this.

19-02-2009 10:26

ComradeNikolai

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

You should see my kitchen.

These are sweet, though. I want to see them in action.

19-02-2009 10:33

Daniel_LaFleur

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

“If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles.” -- Sun Tzu

Every robot is defeatable, and every strategy is defeatable. All these teams have produced great looking robots with excellent capabilities. But they are far from undefeatable.

Good luck teams, the games start in just 1 week.






... and they do look scary together, don't they?

19-02-2009 10:38

Jared Russell

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

Or, in the words of the just-as-eloquent and prophetic Dennis Green,

"IF YOU WANT TO CROWN EM, CROWN EM!"

19-02-2009 10:57

Lil' Lavery

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

But we don't know if they are who we thought they were.

19-02-2009 11:16

Rick TYler

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

Looks like the younger Lavery is looking for a seat on the GDC -- he's already mastered Buddhist kōans.

19-02-2009 11:32

Jessica Boucher

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

The better question is, how is YOUR team doing? What are YOU doing to make your team better, stronger, closer to YOUR goals?

Your job is you. Focus on yourself and your team. Research of others is important, but it should be focused on how you can learn from it. Once you learn and you share what you've learned, everyone will benefit. Speculation for the sake of speculation is just wasted time.

19-02-2009 11:53

JVN

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

Though the team has done it before... I've NEVER designed an intake mechanism. That was a fun new thing to try. I've been scared of them for years. Seems like it turned out okay.

19-02-2009 11:56

Koko Ed

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

For all we know part of their strategy is to post pictures and videos of their robots before the season began to demoralize the other teams.
Competition is as much about psychology as it is about ability. If you go in thinking you're going to lose then you just made a self fulfilling prophecy because you've lost before you've even made it to the field.

19-02-2009 12:36

Danny McC

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

Very true Ed. very true. That is why I always have the thought train of we are going to win. And if not have the best time we can doing it.

19-02-2009 12:40

JesseK

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

I know our team is doing just fine. We really pushed ourselves this year in every system we built, and were successful in most of them. My point is more to the fact that next year we'll probably look for some sort of build-season alliance in addition to everything else we've done so far. Everyone seems to benefit from it. Sure, this year our bot will be competitive, but we don't have a promo video that's nearly as intimidating as these 3. Guess we'll have to see what video I can get in DC. I mean, after all, it was one of our strategies to lower everyone's expectations at the DC scrimmage by not moving at all...silly regolith paneling .

Our strategy would be to out-drive 1114's shooter, use our UI on the laptop to lead the shots on 217 & 148 a la Descent I and II, (after all, none of the 3 can move sideways ), and stick to the original plan that with a shooter it doesn't really matter what your fire rate is so long as the opposition stays in range. Oh yea, then there's a play I like to call 'bait, switch, and tackle', but that will require someone else to have a ball handling design similar to ours .

19-02-2009 13:39

Ian Curtis

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

Like Dave keeps sayin', 71.

Let's review their record of success when there are mobile goals on the field, shall we?

2008 - No mobile goal, No Championship
2007 - No mobile goal, No Championship
2006 - No mobile goal, No Championship
2005 - No mobile goal, No Championship
2004 - Mobile goal, Championship #4
2003 - No mobile goal, No Championship
2002 - Mobile goal, Championship #3
2001 - Mobile goal, Championship #2
2000 - No mobile goal, No Championship
1999 - Mobile goal, No Championship
1998 - No mobile goal, No Championship
1997 - No mobile goal, Championship #1
1996 - No Mobile goal, No Championship

In summary, there has been only 1 game with a mobile goal that did not net Team Hammond (71) a national/international Championship. And that, my friends, is what we like to call scary...

19-02-2009 14:08

A Bear

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

nice stats

19-02-2009 14:46

JaneYoung

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

I understand what you are saying, Ed, it can be part of the promotion of your own reputation, legacy, hard work. It can also be an intimidation factor if viewed as one. Champions can become champions by pulling out the stops and using every venue they can to achieve that title. We’ve seen that in many athletic sports/teams/venues. It’s a marketing tool as old as the first games, I’d wager.

Many respected and successful teams also champion the right and the room for self-improvement, self-development, and self-respect in other teams – learning to grow as a team and as competitors to be feared and respected. These teams also provide white papers and information concerning how their programs work and how to develop robot designs that are sound and effective. Several also give excellent presentations at the Championship conferences, sharing aspects of their team strengths, their engineering talents, and even their strategies.

All of this works together. One can’t just separate out some photographs and videos without looking at the other aspects of the teams that have made them competitors on a world championship level.

I’m always among the first to encourage each team to develop their program and their strengths, including recruiting engineers and mentors to help strengthen/obtain their goals and commitments. At the same time, I have to give a nod of respect to those teams who have already found that balance and continue to put it into practice year after year, achieving consistency, setting the bar, and acting as role models for others to learn from.

19-02-2009 15:01

Akash Rastogi

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

Umm... I hope this type of comment aren't directed at me, because the intent of this picture was just to make people laugh (hey, JVN laughed when I showed him).

I kinda want people to fear something like this happening Fear drives others to do better. I know it did this to me.

Also note that this compilation had nothing to do with the 3 individual teams. It was me posting the pics to make people laugh and not them. Do not drag the teams into it please.

19-02-2009 15:07

Jared Russell

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

To turn this around, a perceived slight by the CD community can also be a powerful tool. I have used Fantasy First picks, otherwise innocent "quotes" from forum users, and other online "popularity contests" as motivation for our build and drive teams more than once.

Pictures and videos that people drool over can intimidate, but they also motivate. I think that the veteran teams who truly do "get it" hope that that is the message that gets received when they post their machines.

19-02-2009 15:15

Akash Rastogi

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

Thanks everyone for hijacking a comedic thread. Really. Thanks for random neg rep and presumptuous posts too.

Finally, someone who sees it from my side of the window. (emphasis mine)

19-02-2009 15:53

JaneYoung

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

Akash,

I’m sorry that the intended comedic thread was hijacked but at the same time, there has been some good discussion going on. In my opinion, none of the posts made were presumptuous although several became serious. Many mentors that read and post in CD always keep in mind how easily young people can be influenced. Mentors who are struggling to find effective ways to help their teams and their students develop, can see the impact that posts can have on the individuals on the team. Rookie teams and rookie members may not understand the joke or the humor that is implied and they may be intimidated, thinking this is the standard they have to meet as a first year or second year. It is easy to feel overwhelmed and intimidated if strong organizational support systems aren’t in place on a team. Sometimes, ChiefDelphi is a double-edged sword in that it provides wonderful information, resources, and experience. It can also be perceived as setting very high standards, perhaps too high for those who do not have the strong foundation in place that helps teams meet their goals. Some of these posts in this thread are about that, building stronger foundations – building a stronger team. Yes, it is great to have role models and teams to look up do, but keep your eye on the prize, don’t forget to work to become a champion in your own right.
--
I see you edited your post to include Jared's quote. It's a good one.

19-02-2009 16:05

Richard Wallace

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

In a celebratory post last season, John suggested that an alliance of 1114, 217, and his refrigerator could win.

Maybe 148's robot will prove him right in 2009. I'm an admirer of high quality appliance designs.

19-02-2009 16:06

Karthik

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

Just to clear somethings up, there are no common parts on any of the 148, 217 & 1114 robots. We all share a common sponsor (as well as 254 and 2056) who graciously manufactured our sheet metal for us. What we have benefited from as a group is our discussions during build season. Each team designed and built their robots on their own, but constantly bounced ideas off of each other. (1114 made some small parts for 148 that couldn't be made easily in the Robowranglers shop) These types of discussions proved to be very valuable, as it's nice to get an unbiased opinion on an approach. We also had these same discussions with many of the local teams in our area, including 1503, 2166, 2702 and 2809.

I think this form of "talking collaboration" has really benefited all these teams. I know some teams enjoy the secrecy of build season and working on their own island, but we've found that some good old fashioned peer review sessions make a huge impact, and open our eyes to merits and flaws of our designs. It's so hard to evaluate your own design honestly, having a fresh set of eyes look take a look is a great asset. It's just another form of co-opertition.

19-02-2009 16:06

JVN

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

Wow, negative reputation for something in THIS thread?
Someone has some real issues they need to address...

19-02-2009 16:16

ComradeNikolai

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

I think that was a game hint.

19-02-2009 17:31

Koko Ed

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

If people do Fantasy FIRST right Chairman's level teams are more valuable than dominant teams (more points) thus otherwise powerful team in the HOF like 67, 111, 16, ect are off limits to me if there's a Chairman's threat available no matter how good their robot is.

As for perceived slights, there's 1800 teams in FIRST and not everyone is gonna be in the spotlight unfortunately. There's always surprise teams that rise to prominence every year and for all their dominance 1114 just won a championship last year and 217 and 148 have two each in 18 years. It's not just as easy as showing up and watching everyone wither away. There's alot of good teams out there including ones that no one cares about and they're using threads like this to feed the need to kick much butt.

19-02-2009 17:41

thefro526

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

I looked at this picture and started laughing. I laughed because I realized that with those three teams on an alliance they would probably run out of balls and be frantically driving around the field trying to gather up the balls they haven't already scored. Moral of the story, if you go up against 148,217 and 1114 make sure you hoard all of the balls.

Thought this thread needed more humor =P

21-02-2009 20:22

Paul Copioli

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

First off, I laughed out loud when I saw the picture.

Second, there were some questions earlier in the thread regarding what sort of things did we do new? Also, there was some mention of collaboration and I want to address that too.

What we did new this year:

1. Take balls from the floor ... successfully - We have been a team since 1999 and only one other time did we attempt to get balls fromthe floor: 2001. Our robot at the Championship that year di not even have the floor loading mechanism on it as it did not work (we were called "Royal Fusion" back then). This is the first year we are picking balls up from the floor.

2. Traction control - We had this figured out within the first 2 weeks and shared exactly what we were thinking on these very forums. We have never done traction control before this year.

3. #25 chain for drive. This requires new mechanisms and we learned how to handle #25 chain.

4. Use absolute encoders with analog outputs. Historically we have used traditional digital output encoders using digital inputs..

Collaboration: I am a big fan and if you can contribute an equal share to the collaboration effort, then it will be a true collaboration. However, if one team is doing all the work and the other is benefitting, then that is more of a mentor / mentee relationship. This year, 217 collaborated with 148 and 1114. We also had a few design discussions with 1726 regarding the screw. 148, 217, and 1114 all discussed the turreted shooter and the helix. 1114 decided on a turreted shooter with a different intake. We decided on a turreted shooter with the helix. 18 decided on a massive dumper with a helical loader. you will see similarities between the robots, but not one uses the same parts.

Finally, 217 has been receiving sheet metal from IFI since 2006. To me, the sheet metal is what makes a TunderChicken robot a "ThunderChicken Robot" and for that 217 has John and the folks at IFI to thank.

Paul

21-02-2009 21:25

AdamHeard

Re: pic: You guys remember what most of us said would never happen last year?

A lot of you are correct in saying there is no guarantee, and we haven't seen anything.... but at this point from what I've seen, the safest top 5 robots to bet on are (in no particular order);

1114
148
254
217
968