21-02-2010 20:23

Matt704

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

That robot looks awesome! Great job!

21-02-2010 20:28

Nevets Amstier

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Net response from 229:

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAT????!!!!!


wow unbelievably impressive

I wish we were going to a regional with you guys

21-02-2010 20:28

AndrewMorrison

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

The biggest compliment I can give is that I am frightened to ever see you in competition.

Awesome job!

21-02-2010 20:30

carbuff2228

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

very nice robot wish we were competing with you

21-02-2010 20:38

GaryVoshol

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Wow, looks great. I think I owe someone an apology.

21-02-2010 20:38

AcesJames

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

After about a minute drool started pouring from my open mouth onto the keyboard. Not only does 148 ALWAYS have a very functional robot, they ALWAYS have something innovative, and they ALWAYS have something very pleasing to the eye. Excellent job on the robot, guys. Cant wait to take a peak at Armadillo in Atlanta.

21-02-2010 20:39

V_Chip

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Marvelous.

21-02-2010 20:51

Rich Kressly

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Sweet Jesus.

21-02-2010 20:53

BrendanB

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Man, that bot is beautiful! But a life size doll of JVN, really?

Looking good!

21-02-2010 20:53

MrForbes

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Beautiful job, team 148 should be proud!

21-02-2010 20:55

Paul Copioli

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

You kind of are in week 1 ....

21-02-2010 20:58

Joe J.

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

As always that robot looks absolutely amazing

21-02-2010 20:58

Nevets Amstier

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

good luck then


(memories of 2005 are coming to mind...cough *division by chicken* cough )

21-02-2010 20:59

AndrewMorrison

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

DIVISION BY CHICKEN!!!!

21-02-2010 21:00

Karibou

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

You should have seen how much my jaw just dropped. A fabulous robot as always; well done 148!

Now, where's 217's?

21-02-2010 21:03

KC1AJT

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

absolutely amazing

21-02-2010 21:04

Wildcat

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

holy.....

21-02-2010 21:04

Matt704

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I look forward to seeing y'all in Dallas AND Houston. I hope we match up with y'all and not against y'all like last year.

21-02-2010 21:05

KC1AJT

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

sorry dude the holy cows are another team

21-02-2010 21:06

Koko Ed

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

When we saw the robot flip up on the tower like that in the video we completely freaked!

21-02-2010 21:08

wo-bot 141

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

this is why im glad your in Texas and im in Michigan.. very nice. good luck

21-02-2010 21:11

V_Chip

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I hope to see y'all in 'lanta.

21-02-2010 21:14

DarkFlame145

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

WOW, amazing that looks so sweet

21-02-2010 21:16

XaulZan11

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Very very cool as usual.

Its a good thing there were no refs to catch the penalty at 2:29sih, though

703 from 2007 may not longer be the coolest 14 wheeled robot.

21-02-2010 21:16

JaneYoung

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

The Robowranglers are going to be quite a draw in the pit area this year - as always. It's going to be great!

21-02-2010 21:19

waialua359

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I dont think that matters.

Paul lives in Texas and last time I checked, he's still with the ThunderChickens.

21-02-2010 21:20

waialua359

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Exactly my thoughts.......................................... ....................254/968??

21-02-2010 21:21

coldfusion1279

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

So, I will take the bait.

I see you experimenting with rollers, I don't see the ball rolling in the video when you hold it...

I didn't see a pic of experimenting with suction (at least not obviously), but the ball is behaving like it is sucked in place.

So what are you using to hold the ball, and how did you adapt it so that you could hold the ball in place in (what looks like) the entire width of the front of your robot?

Great design. Nice work.

21-02-2010 21:26

gorrilla

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I dont know what to think about our robot now

21-02-2010 21:29

Chuck Glick

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I have to agree with Kressly on this one. Sweet Jesus.

148 knows how to build their bots down there in Greenville and this year is clearly no exception. I bet this bot is quite successful this season, and guess what, rumor has it that they have improvements already planned.

Be afraid everyone, be very afraid.

Grats to everyone at RoboWranglers for putting out yet another quality bot. Everyone should strive to achieve the quality of build that 148 is known for.

21-02-2010 21:33

cziggy343

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

sweet mother... that is very very impressive...

21-02-2010 21:40

Phreadumb

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Excuse me while I go change my pants!

21-02-2010 21:47

viney1503

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Considering 148 isn't attending FLR does that mean 148 and 217 have twins

21-02-2010 21:49

MrForbes

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Naw, that would never happen.

21-02-2010 21:54

cziggy343

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

never say never

21-02-2010 21:55

robotnerd17

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Hmmm its like I've already seen this robot before....Who designed these parts Paul? Because that seems very complicated for a couple of students.

21-02-2010 22:06

Cory

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

If you want to call a team out at least have the guts to use your name and team number instead of a fake account.

21-02-2010 22:13

hipsterjr

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I am in love and scared to death of that thing. Looks like it eats small children. Props for the articulating drive.

21-02-2010 22:22

Brandon Holley

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

pfft...thats it? I thought you guys would come up with something a little more impressive...


Seriously though, what an impressive feat of engineering. Can you elaborate on the drive setup?

21-02-2010 22:22

Karthik

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Another amazing creation by the Robowranglers. These guys are by far the best team in FIRST at creating highly competitive robots that look like something that you would see on a showroom floor. I had the opportunity to spend a week with these guys during the build season and was blown away by how well this team functioned. Everyone knows about their all-star mentor base, but they also have some of the most ingenious students that I have ever met in this program. It's neat to see the "final" versions of the prototypes that I saw being work on in week 2. (In fact a couple of these prototypes had significant influence on the 2010 1114 robot.)

Congratulations on an amazing machine. I can't wait to see it in Atlanta and maybe even sooner...

21-02-2010 22:22

Chuck Glick

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Don't forget the memorable alliance of 217 and 229 from 2005.

Now who were those two mentors again...?

21-02-2010 22:22

Paul Copioli

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Well, if you want to go there and reveal yourself I can put you in contact with high school senior Charles Wensel and high school senior Parker Francis who designed the initial prototype Nonadrive and 50 - 60 percent of the robot you see in the video. Team 148 and 217 have the exact same philosophy when it comes to FRC: Students work along side engineers. Not all student done, not all engineer done, but completed together.


Your ignorance just makes me laugh and your cowardly way of creating a fake account makes me sad for you. I would like to know: how many high school students have you inspired in the last 10 years? I bet it doesn't come even close to the number that I have inspired. I usually hold my tongue in these cases, but morons like you just push my buttons.

21-02-2010 22:22

Ian Curtis

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Since you guys are right down the road from Caddo Mills Airport where Armadillo Aerospace does their thing, do you ever have any interaction with them?

Nice robot too!

EDIT: After watching this video a few more times, I think that this may be the year that one robot can carry 2 BLTs... Wowsers!

21-02-2010 22:23

samir13k

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

NEVER Underestimate a student...

Forgot to mention; THAT BOT IS KILLER! i dont wanna go up against it which I probably wont, but i feel bad for whoever does! The lifter is SWEEEEET! and I am also extremely curious as to how you hold those balls so well?! Is it classified? or will you spill the beans

21-02-2010 22:28

IndySam

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Common Paul tell us how you really feel.


But seriously you have not only inspired students but also fellow mentors who in turn have inspired other students so your influence is exponential.

21-02-2010 22:30

Cory

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

and 254...

21-02-2010 22:32

Phreadumb

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I agree with Paul Copioli, if engineers aren't working with students side by side the students are not getting INSPIRED to be science and technology heros. This robonerd17 guy should not underestimate the minds of students either.

21-02-2010 22:35

Chuck Glick

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Something tells me that 148, 217, 254, and 1114 all have a little something in common this year...

Is this the year that team IFI blows all competition out of the water?

21-02-2010 22:36

BradMello

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Very impressive kicking accuracy and elevating abilities.

Hope to play with you guys at the Championships!

21-02-2010 22:37

dodar

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

team IFI always blows everyone out of the water lol

21-02-2010 22:38

tim_reiher

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Wow..... that looks really impressive! and it has underglow to boot!

Great job guys, i can't wait to see it in a real match!

21-02-2010 22:42

dlavery

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

The best keep getting better. Well done guys.

-dave

p.s. and after watching Parker in action myself over the summer, I will echo Samir's earlier comment - never underestimate a student!


.

21-02-2010 22:45

Alex Cormier

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I am very scared to see the bright green version of this in 1.5 weeks.

21-02-2010 22:48

keehun

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

WOW.

21-02-2010 22:57

Akash Rastogi

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Expletive expletive expletive expletive expletive expletive expletive

You guys are expletive amazing. I haven't "Wow'd" for a robot like that (nor has my bro was was in FRC 10 years ago) in all my 4 years.

Holy expletive

21-02-2010 23:00

JVN

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

It's actually very simple. Any team can do it.
The secret is.... 3 weeks of prototyping!

-John

PS - For anyone who followed my build journal on facebook, the ball magnet is the "System #5" I kept cursing during week 2 and 3.

21-02-2010 23:01

Karibou

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Heh, I wouldn't count your Chickens...maybe it won't be bright green; there have been a few years when the only green on 217's bot was the bumpers (going from memory, 2008, at least?), and THAT obviously won't happen this year.

21-02-2010 23:01

JesseK

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

THANK YOU 148!

For not posting an odd, out of focus, random, or otherwise not-really-a-teaser teaser. The teaser here is in trying to figure out how this thing works, and it has some kick $@#$@#$@# music to boot. Looks great, hope to see you in Atlanta!

21-02-2010 23:02

JVN

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Most of these parts were designed by students. They are very complicated. What does that tell you about the students?

I'm so proud of our "kids" I could just explode.

-John

PS - I think you need a hug.

21-02-2010 23:14

Chris

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Wow, just wow.

First off great video, of course its somewhat easier when you have such great material to work with.

The drive-train is spiffy as heck, (congrats to John, Paul, Parker, Charles, and the rest of 148), and whats even more impressive than the drive set up is the amount of omni-directional control you appear to have, which with that kind of mechanical set up is very impressive.

The kicker looks simple, powerful and effective.

The hanger looks like one of the few I've seen that looks like it should work in 5 seconds or less

And the very "mysterious" ball magnet looks far more effective than anything I've seen to date in teasers, or in person at the Suffield scrimmage.


I can't wait for the tour at champs, you guys have raised the bar again.

The only real issue that I can see is that she really just won't look the same with blue bumpers :-(

21-02-2010 23:16

Ian Curtis

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Shucks, John deserves a heck of a lot for that one!

21-02-2010 23:17

Pjohn1959

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I guess jealousy breeds contempt.

Anyway, another clean design from the 'Wranglers. Can't wait to see it in action in Dallas.

Love the pictures using VEX stuff to do the prototyping.

21-02-2010 23:17

bellpride

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

The reason you're receiving all these aggressive replies from mentors is not because they're trying to defend themselves, but because they're trying to defend their students. Your comment isn't hurting Paul or the other Robowrangler advisors, but insulting the students' capability to create such a fantastic robot.

Please think twice before letting your frustration spill out.

@148: What a beast. Good luck at your regionals, and see you in Atlanta.

21-02-2010 23:18

Akash Rastogi

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

You must not know very many students then.

Way to fail there buddy.

21-02-2010 23:18

samir13k

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

After these last 6 weeks, he probably needs a Super Long nap, but who doesnt? and maybe a 148 Caliber bot for his team? or a cookie?

21-02-2010 23:24

s_forbes

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Awesome! You guys nailed the ball handling, the lifting, and the versatile drive train. I would have expected a variable distance kicker too, but it looks like you have plenty of 'sweet spots' on the field to score reliably from.

Way cool, as usual. Someday I will find a way to see one of your robots in person.

21-02-2010 23:24

EricH

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Actually, he needs a few reads of the many and various JVN whitepapers that are out there. Then we'll find out which team he belongs to, at any rate--when they suddenly improve to regular eliminations contenders.

21-02-2010 23:39

Joe G.

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I believe what you mean, sir, is "Why didn't I think of that?"

AWESOME robot, easily the best ball possession I have seen so far. But the best thing about the video is the insight into 148's design process, and all the prototypes that came before this crazy machine.

Best of luck out there, hope I get a chance to see this thing...

21-02-2010 23:44

Chuck Glick

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

After looking at this photo yet another time, this bot keeps looking more and more like the next version of the M1 Abrams Tank.

John, is IFI doing military contracts now?

21-02-2010 23:57

EgROS

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

WOW!

Thats really all I can say, this robot has left me speechless.

I can't wait to see ya'll at lonestar!

22-02-2010 00:39

Jonathan Norris

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

You guys certainly brought the WOW factor this year. Another inspiring engineering feat with this years bot. As I said earlier in the year i'm really impressed with how well you use the amazing resources available to your team to their fullest abilities to produce beautiful robots.

22-02-2010 00:48

Andrew Schreiber

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

It tells me they have some $@#$@#$@#$@# fine mentors and a lot of passion.

IF there is a twin lurking somewhere up north I cannot wait until I get to see this thing with my own eyes. If not, John, when can I schedule a tour in Atlanta? (I want to book my time early)

22-02-2010 00:52

MrForbes

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

What is this "ball magnet" thing you speak of?

22-02-2010 00:52

Brandon Holley

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I had a quick question about the drive, when the drivetrain actuates itself from the omnis to the "regular" setup, are the 8 wheels in line or are the 4 traction wheels lower?

-Brando

22-02-2010 00:53

John G

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

That is one BA looking robot. I bet we'll see it on Einstein. . . .

22-02-2010 01:07

Tom Bottiglieri

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Looks alright, I guess.

22-02-2010 01:18

coldfusion1279

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Ah, I think I could make it out from the vid... Interesting I didn't think of that before now.

Good luck this season, not that you'll be needing much 'luck'.

22-02-2010 01:35

robodude03

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Wow, just amazing to see the work that both students and mentors put into creating a robot like this. When I create strategies with my team it is always based around playing against such powerful robots such as 148.

Kudos to the entire team and I can't wait to see it in action in the following weeks. Excellent job!

22-02-2010 02:01

Chris Fultz

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Rocl On, 148.
Awesome.

22-02-2010 02:41

Tom Bottiglieri

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Ball Magnet seems about right...

22-02-2010 02:52

Tetraman

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

The play by play as to what I said as it was going up the bar:

"Alright lets see...No, its not going that easy...no it's not going to...oh no really...OH WOAH WHAAAAT??!!!?"

22-02-2010 02:52

Michael Corsetto

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Is team IFI taking applications? I have a serious case of ball magnet envy...

22-02-2010 02:58

=Martin=Taylor=

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

You mean "any team with sponsors like IFI who can cut all their parts for them in a couple of days so they have plenty of time to prototype."

Try designing and prototyping an entire robot in two weeks, and then working with a team of amateur machinists and welders (many of whom don't know the imperial system of units ) and NONE of whom have any experience with tools...

You build a bot that way, and then I’ll be impressed…

No but seriously, I'm freaking impressed

22-02-2010 03:05

Cory

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Not all of Team IFI is smart enough to follow that path. Some of us cavemen actually mill everything the hard way

22-02-2010 05:00

Koko Ed

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Yes.
It's nice to see someone actually post a robot once in while.
Some of us have better things to do than stare at a bunch of parts.

22-02-2010 06:47

Chris is me

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

There's one build day left for my team, and I just had to see this video of an awesome robot that's basically everything I ever wanted to do plus ten times more. I think I'm crying a little.

Awesome job. The drivetrain, the kicker, the hanger. Aaaah.

22-02-2010 07:12

sgreco

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Ummm.....I'm speechless.

22-02-2010 08:09

Travis Hoffman

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Don't cry [even virtual tears!] - everything's relative. 148 maximizes the output they get from the plentiful input resources they have, including human. If the output your team generates relative to your team's available inputs is near the same ratio as theirs, be proud of that achievement, as your results are no less impressive.

Most people in FIRST do (and if they don't, should) look beyond the absolute in determining the merits of a team's success each season.

Now on to the business of analyzing this beast, which is, I think, the most aesthetically groovy robot I've seen in my FIRST career (even with the eventual attachment of red/blue bumpers). I can see three sets of black tubing that appear to be tensioned by your arm's probably large tilt system reduction when it tilts back to grab the tower. I also see what I think maybe kinda sorta is two different attachment points near the center of the frame. Definitely one. I presume this tensioning assists the tilt in lifting the robot's max moment up from horizontal. Can you share any clarifications and further details of this particular part of your lift system?

Now I'm off to find a CNC sheet metal company in Northeast Ohio.

22-02-2010 08:31

dlavery

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

The scariest part of the entire video and discussion is the realization that I know the RoboWranglers will be making the maximum possible use of their 65 pound withholding allowance and the remaining time until their competitions to make this monster ever BETTER. I can't wait to see the real final version.

-dave




.

22-02-2010 08:44

IKE

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Saw the video last night and I had nightmares. Now that you have mentioned this, I may not be able to sleep again. Very scary indeed!

22-02-2010 08:46

Collin Fultz

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

John, Paul, et al -

Fantastic work once again. Your team(s) continue to inspire the inspired. You guys keep pushing the bar higher and higher and it's robots like this that will cause FIRST to breakthrough into the mainstream.

If I were a high school student on the fence about engineering, seeing this beautiful machine and knowing that I could make something like it one day would push me towards engineering. That's the purpose of this program.

Thanks for posting the video! Good luck, and we'll see you (hopefully beside us and not across from us) in Atlanta.

-Collin

22-02-2010 08:47

lim shi hao

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I have to admit, the tech you guys have made this Singaporean's eyes popped out.

22-02-2010 09:01

JaneYoung

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I don't think it is scary. There is a place where math becomes art. This is the place - a higher level. There are also individuals in our world who don't want to just compete, they want to dominate and will do what it takes to do that, lining up all the correct resources and talent. It is being showcased here. Strategy is part of the game but that same approach can be used in real world decision-making and in companies and how they run themselves. It's part of the vision that is promoted in FIRST and has culminated in the Robowranglers and what they are capable of.

Pretty cool.

22-02-2010 09:20

Rob

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

This one is a top contender. Your bot will inspire even those who are not on your team.

Great job!

Rob

22-02-2010 09:33

Ryan Dognaux

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Another quality machine from team 148 & friends - I wouldn't expect anything less than the ultimate shutout machine from these guys. Can't wait to see it in action in an actual match.

22-02-2010 09:39

RMS11

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

First off, amazing robot. Ridiculous that yall can pump that out in six weeks. This year we were shooting to make something 1/100th that awesome but unfortunately have thus lost out on a lot of valuable practice time.... :/
Still, compliments to you for such and amazing robot. Crazy....

On the discussion of how their "ball magnet" works, go to 2:28 in the video. As they drive up the hill to push the ball into the goal, the ball is stuck to the robot and hovers. First off, I am pretty sure that it is a roller system, not suction. If the ball isnt rolling and it is a roller system, does that mean the ball is pinched in? Is that really legal, or would that technically be a penalty (because the ball must the tiniest bit off the ground, right???) Is it just designed that the ball is pinched so low to the ground that is barely hovering? Is the roller torqued up so that it basically stalls when the ball is locked in place...? This is the buggiest part of our robot still...

I cant wait to (hopefully) see this thing at atlanta. Luckily, even is we dont make it, I can stop by... Too bad its leaving atlanta next year...

22-02-2010 09:41

Jester Jackster

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

wow!

22-02-2010 09:41

Chris is me

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I don't follow. What makes a ball wedged under a roller (if it was) lift off the ground? Say the ball does get wedged in that shot. What is supporting it other than the ground?

22-02-2010 09:42

dodar

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

thats exactly what i was thinking, it looks like an amazing ball dribbler but it looked like the ball was not in contact with the ground when it was gathered but i could be wrong...just my POV

22-02-2010 09:47

RMS11

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I mean to say that the rollers pinch the ball just enough to hold it and squeeze it in...Nothing physically under the ball. Sorry bout my wording.

22-02-2010 09:52

Nick Lawrence

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Now that, is a robot.

My god is that ever a robot.

That is everything I dreamed of and more, for a championship winning robot.

I want one!

-Nick

22-02-2010 09:55

JesseK

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Good question -- after some extra viewing, especially with the side angle from the tunnel, it appears that the tractions are inline with the omnis. If you think about it, having only 4 wheels on the ground with the outer four corners being the contact points would mean the bot couldn't turn exceptionally well. Yet that is a very agile robot. Thus I'd say it's 8 on the floor. It's practically ingenious, and I'm very curious to know how the module are actuated. My initial thoughts would be a spring suspension that's pulled up via rope that's attached to a window motor. The modules pivot cocentric to the omnis, thus the bumper zone planes never change. I think the rope would stretch over time though. Hmm.

Ingenious indeed.

22-02-2010 10:06

MrForbes

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Wow, that IS a sticky ball magnet! Hopefully not too sticky

22-02-2010 10:07

dodar

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

so that means they are carrying then, right?

22-02-2010 10:09

MrForbes

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I don't know, I'm not a referee

22-02-2010 10:10

Nick Lawrence

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Uhm, isn't that bad?

-Nick

22-02-2010 10:11

dodar

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

ya, carrying is illegal

22-02-2010 10:14

Cory

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

That's definitely not how they hold the ball normally. It only occurs when you go too far into the goal. I'm sure they already know they can't do that and are practicing to make sure they never do.

22-02-2010 10:17

Ty Tremblay

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

But is it carrying the ball when the bot is driving around on the flat parts of the playing surface? Technically, the ball could still be touching the ground when the robot is on level ground. But, if the situation in the above picture happens, does that even matter?

I apologize if this has already been covered in an update/Q&A. I'm currently abroad in Thailand and unable to build this year.

22-02-2010 10:17

Chris Fultz

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

To me, what is most impressive to me is this --

There are many teams that will build their robot, ship it, and compete with it in some events and just fix things when they break. They would be 'satisfied' and take a rest.

Knowing 148 and their mentors, they will take the "design is an iterative process" philosophy and continue to update, revise, modify and improve this machine all they way through the Championships and the machine in April will be much different from the machine that goes into a crate on February 23rd. They will see what other teams have done, they will see what works and what does not, they will see how this game plays out on the field and make the adjustments and maybe make major changes.

That is how great teams do it, and that is how great companies do it.

If you have not, read JVNs design paper, read it.

And once again, great job 148!

22-02-2010 10:27

EricH

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I'm not a ref either, but I do know that the GDC has ruled that if the ball is possessed and comes off the ground, it is carrying, period. Now, whether or not the refs catch it is another matter.

Still, with 65 lbs and a couple weeks to work with, I'm sure 148 will come up with something to keep the ball down on the ground.

22-02-2010 10:34

MrForbes

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Read it, and live it, if you can. It takes a LOT of work, motivation, and leadership skills to keep improving the design continuously! Kudos to 148

Make that twice again Awesome machine

22-02-2010 10:38

Cory

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

The situation above isn't going to happen. It's not a design flaw. It's an issue of the drivers letting go of the ball before going too far into the goal.

22-02-2010 10:41

MrForbes

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

If the drivers have to let go of the ball, then they were holding onto it, which is what CARRYING is all about?

It looks a bit iffy to us mere mortals.

22-02-2010 10:54

JesseK

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Not saying I know how their ball magnet works, but ...

If they reverse it and make the tip of the roller go the same speed of the drive train x2 then it'd be impossible for them to carry regardless of what the drivers do.

22-02-2010 11:03

Ty Tremblay

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

If you look at 1:54 on the video, you can see a yellow upper roller (if it is a roller) and a black lower roller. You can also see them holding the ball at 2:01. Hope this can help shed some light on the subject.

I love this robot, it's genius. 148 always inspires a little jealousy in me each year.

22-02-2010 11:04

Chris is me

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I think the best "soccer analogy" would be if you pinched the ball between your feet, you'd have to let go before jumping if you wanted the ball to stay on the ground for whatever reason.

22-02-2010 11:06

Greg Marra

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I love the hanging. What an amazing looking and capable robot.

22-02-2010 11:10

JVN

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

We just turn off the magnet now before going up the goal ramp...
That won't happen in competition.

-John

22-02-2010 11:17

ks_mumupsi

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I look forward to seeing this in Dallas... impressive.

22-02-2010 11:37

Paul Copioli

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

With regards to the ball magnet, think of it this way:

If the normal force between the ball and the floor is less than the normal force generated between the ball and the "magnets", then the ball will stay possessed by the robot. This doesn't mean the normal force between the ball and the floor is zero.

The instance you see in the video near the goal was an implementation issue that has already been resolved. The ball will always be touching the floor when the magnet is on.

I can tell you this: we (148 + 217) created the ball magnet concept using only 9th grade geometry and 11th grade physics (1st semester).

22-02-2010 11:41

sanddrag

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Hey hey, who you callin amateurs? But seriously, this is why their robot is good. It all comes down to material removal. The secret is in the laser. We spend 2 minutes to drill a hole. They spend 20 seconds to CAD it and laser cut it. We spend many minutes milling solid, they spend a few burning through sheet. Multiply that by hundreds of parts, and you get the idea.They can do more in less time, and this is why it's done and good. Quite smart. This robot makes me feel like for 9 years I have not been working hard enough (or perhaps not smart enough). Great job 148!

All I can say is, if this robot ever comes head to head with 254, the match will be one for the books.

22-02-2010 11:42

Chuck Glick

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Paul,

I think everyone is just a little jealous of the 148/217 "ball magnet" skills.

I thought something like this would work but we never got around to prototyping it... boy do I wish we did now.

22-02-2010 11:57

=Martin=Taylor=

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Well I was referring to the team 100 students... It took them a week last year to cut a single keyway And that’s not for lack of trying! They worked on it every day!

22-02-2010 12:00

Chris Fultz

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

All I know is I went to Home Depot and the guy there said they did't sell ball magnets. Maybe only the Texas and Michigan stores carry those.

22-02-2010 12:03

Chuck Glick

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I think 1726 found some in Arizona too.

22-02-2010 12:05

Dmentor

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I’m progressing well this year through what I think of as the FRC equivalent of the Kübler-Ross model (commonly known as the five stages of grief). I imagine that there are many other folks going through this as well and hopefully we won’t dwell too much more on the negative aspects. Anyways, here’s where I am in my process:

First came “awe”. What an awesome robot! Function AND form nicely wrapped together! Great video! What an awesome TEAM!

Next came “envy”. Wish we could create a robot like that. Wish we had such an established and well-grounded design process. Wish we had access to such a great world-class production facility. Wish I could be part of a team like that.

Followed quickly by “depression”. How can we compete with that? Am I lacking as a mentor since we aren’t capable of creating robots like? Why even try?

Hopefully I’m solidly into the “acceptance” phase now. Regardless of how good any team is, I can still reach out to my team and inspire them in their pursuit of STEM fields. We can still play Breakaway to the best of our abilities. And since FRC is played with alliances of three teams, any robot that can drive can contribute to their alliance’s success. Great strategy can often counterbalance exceptional single robot performance. So how do we win with what we have? Quite frankly we’re happy to have been able to produce a robot at all with all the snow outages…

[tangent] What I particularly like about 148’s design is the potential ability to score 3 in autonomous and 2 in the end game. I envision eliminations to be defensive struggles with limited scoring, so capitalizing on these “guaranteed” points is vital. I’ve long admired 217’s and 1114’s (among others) ability to integrate robot design with overall game strategy to maximize the probability of winning.[tangent]

Eventually I’m sure I’ll move into “inspired”. Particularly when teams like 148 are there to help us by providing white papers, robot design, experience, insight, etc.

22-02-2010 12:12

Tom Bottiglieri

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I can assure you the reason the ball magnet that 148, 217, and few others teams have works so well not some black magic, but due to the fact that 148 is amazing at prototyping, and spent hundreds of man-hours on "system 5". They deserve all the success (and defense) they are bound to get this year, 10x over.

22-02-2010 12:17

Chuck Glick

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I totally agree Tom. 148 is one of the few teams that inspires me every year. They truly live by the phrase "design is an iterative process." All teams in FIRST should strive to live by this and 148 is just a prime example.

I just happened to have a major facepalm moment when I saw that roller. Just goes to show, you can never prototype too much.


Man do I wish our magnet worked this well.

22-02-2010 12:29

Jay Trzaskos

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

If i could spend just one build season with this amazing team as a mentor, I would be a happy happy alumni of the JVN school of innovation, inspiration, and design

22-02-2010 12:30

Karibou

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Nope, not a MI product...Home Depot doesn't have any (or #25 masterlinks, for that matter). Must be a Texas product.


It's really cool to know that this is something that I could do, with a little thinking and application of my physics homework. Note to self for next year, apply physics rather than "well, this SEEMS like it would work." 1-sentence inspiration, right there.

Again, way to go 148 (and 217). Seriously cool stuff, srs bizniz, kick-butt, whatever way you choose to describe it.

22-02-2010 12:37

JVN

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

We're getting too much credit for the Ball Magnet. The Ball Magnet design is a 100% collaboration between 148 and 217. The Thunderchicken Prototype and Design teams are as good or better than their 148 counter-parts.

Every compliment that is paid to 148 should be echoed 10 times over to our counterparts up north. Years later, I still love the Thunderchickens!

-John

22-02-2010 12:46

Racer26

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Something tells me we need to fear 148/217 in Atlanta, and 1114 at all of our competitions... not that I wasnt ALREADY expecting that.

22-02-2010 12:58

GaryVoshol

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Hey everyone, you don't have to try to beat teams like 148 and 217 (and teams like 67, 1114, 45, etc. - whatever they come up with). All you have to do is be good enough that they want you on their alliance.

You've seen this; now think of what can you do to complement them, not try to oppose them. And give a few compliments along the line too.

22-02-2010 13:00

Aren_Hill

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

aww but thats the fun part

22-02-2010 13:01

Chris is me

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Shh, you're spoiling my backup plan.

Every set of fingers needs a thumb...

22-02-2010 13:10

Racer26

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Agree. If you can't beat them, join them!

This year's tournament structure (with the weird seeding points none of us are used to), could yield a very different outcome than we're all used to.

It means that someone different could end up on top of the standings, and pick one of these powerhouses (148,217,1114,910,67,45,2056,etc) and upset their normal balance (for instance, the 1114/2056 perennial duo).

22-02-2010 14:08

Kims Robot

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I think I did the exact same thing!!

But then I had thought's similar to Travis's
And Finally I went to look at the "older" robots from 148 & 217:
http://www.robowranglers.com/history/
http://www.thunderchickens.org/ (click on robots)

And realized that looking back to their first few years, they had silly little aluminum bar and PVC robots like the rest of us... 148 has been building & learning since 1992, 217 has been building & learning since 1999, thats 29 years of experience combined!! Why do I mention this? because they are doing what we all should... CONSTANTLY strive to be better every year. You can see it in the progression of their robots, and they came up with the idea of sharing that experience across teams. You can do infinitely better if you dont try to take on all of the work yourself and if you learn from other people's successes and mistakes as well as your own. I'm not saying all teams should co-operate, but for any of you that get that hit of jealousy that I did, just sit back and realize that we ALL can do this too... if we just strive to be better every year. Don't have the resources? GO FIND THEM!! If 1114 can get parts made in Texas, why cant an MD team get parts from CA?? Find resources, find really good engineering mentors, find money, constantly try to do better and do more, have patience, PRACTICE, and you CAN be 148 or 217 Use your jealousy as inspiration if you must!

But before you get stuck in the depression stage realize we are all inspiring kids... I bet those kids that took forever to mill a keyway will remember that for the rest of their lives, and are no less inspired. They may not have gained the depth or breadth of experience that a 148 student does, but our point is to get them to WANT to... to head off to college wanting to be THAT good.

Congrats to 148 & 217 for setting a really high bar for the rest of us

22-02-2010 16:05

nikeairmancurry

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Quick question Paul.. I was looking at the dates in which 148 and 217 are competing. Does this mean that for 5 straight weeks your going to be right in the middle of inferno of this game?

22-02-2010 16:14

GaryVoshol

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

There's another Copioli behind the glass this year.

22-02-2010 16:17

galewind

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Can anyone from 148 get this up on Google video or put it on your site directly? Youtube is blocked from our school.

22-02-2010 16:48

Racer26

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Paul has historically joined us Canadians in Wk 4 at Waterloo Regional... I wonder if we're going to see him there paired up with Karthik as our emcees.

22-02-2010 17:47

Coach Tom

Delicate Balance of forces

Pinching a 9 inch soccer ball at two points within the allowable 2/3 portion is very tricky indeed. Just holding a soccer ball with two tacky parallel cylinders is not easy. We found balancing the "dynamic" forces is very difficult (air pressure in the ball, static and rolling friction, etc.). Although I do not have a PhD in Physics, I am convinced that simple force diagrams will not capture all the variables - especially when the robot is moving. Experimental confirmation is key here.

During our prototyping, we could not find that delicate (favorable) force balance required for an approach like yours. It appears that you found the sweet spot. Congratulations.
-- to all other teams, "there is another". Looking forward the NJ.

-------

22-02-2010 18:47

Redo91

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Very nice robot. I am glad I will get to see it at the Dallas Regional.

Seeing that drive train brings back memories from Rack n' Roll.

22-02-2010 21:12

darkangel

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Wow...just, wow...

You just put a good portion of a rookie team into shock and awe. I'm really impressed. A killer robot and a killer drive team, and that hanging mechanism is brilliant. The amount of work and teamwork this took must be astounding. I can't wait to see this in action, either over webcast or if we qualify for and go to Atlanta. Wonder how many teams are already making strategies against you guys.

22-02-2010 21:41

Paul Copioli

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Yep. My brother Mike will be behind the glass for 217 this year. He has coached at IRI for the last two years so he has a lot of experience behind the glass. 217 historically practices every day after ship with the practice bot (think like a sports team here) so it was not fair to this year's drive team to not have that practice time with the actual drive coach. Besides, Mike is a better coach than I am as he keeps his cool much, much better than I do.


I will be at FLR with 217 on week 1, Cass Tech with 217 week 2, Dallas with 148 week 3, week 4 off, and week 5 with 148 in Dallas. I am really upset that Michigan State Championship is not week 6 this year.

Not this year. I have this little thing called the VEX Robotics Competition that we have in 20 countries all over the world. Week 4 I have to be in New Zealand (yep, the country) for their country's championship. During week 4 this year I will miss my first team 217 match in 11 years. It will be a very somber day for me...

22-02-2010 21:48

roboticWanderor

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

looks like some hefty machining went into the arm joint, no doubt donated by the thunder chickens? it looks similar to the hinge on their 2008 robot.
as for the drivetrain, the pnumatics dropping down the middle "strafe wheel" as you pull up your traction wheels gives this robot some fierce adaptability. don't expect to be able to pin 148 anyway similar to lone star 2009.
yet again, the robowranglers seem to make use of almost every motor in the kit, while still maintaining an elegant design. good work.

22-02-2010 21:51

Bochek

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Possibly the wost news of my day... We will miss your play by play's!

22-02-2010 22:05

Jonathan Norris

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

That's too bad Paul, I've enjoyed giving you ideas to 'spice' up the announcing at Waterloo the last couple years. You and Karthik, plus some webcast input, was a dangerously fun combination. Not even sure yet if I'll be getting up to Waterloo for long this year.

23-02-2010 00:19

lynca

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Great work Robowranglers. The DiscoBots are looking forward to playing 148 in Lone Star !

I'm still a bit confused as what drops down and how. Do you only raise the strafe wheel when going up the ramp ? How do the traction wheels move up and down ?

23-02-2010 00:23

Akash Rastogi

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

If you pause the video, there seems to be a pivot in the center. I'm guessing it all actuates on one joint.

23-02-2010 00:36

s_forbes

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

You need keen eyes to watch a Robowranglers video.

It looks more like each of four wheel pods are actuated individually by a pneumatic cylinder. See this picture, which I assume to be a Nonadrive practice chassis that was figured out sometime before build season.



Also, I scanned this years video for small hidden photos of 1114 or 217 to no avail. The build pictures do show how many crazy prototypes went into this design.

23-02-2010 00:42

Akash Rastogi

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Thanks Travis. Sometimes I, and I'm sure many others, need reminders like this to keep our heads on straight.

148 and the rest of team IFI and their success has driven our collaborative partners in EWCP to reach a higher level to compete against formidable teams. EWCP wants to be these teams (and later on, beat them if possible).

Its very cliche, but you guys really don't know how much you inspire me to better every team I come in contact with, including my own. This is my heartfelt thank you, for just being you and doing the things you do.

23-02-2010 00:43

JaneYoung

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

pssst week 5 = Lone Star, Paul, Lone Star. On your way back from New Zealand, stop by Austin and we'll point you in the right direction.

Travel safe. It's wonderful to have you here in Texas!

Jane

23-02-2010 00:58

Zack247

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I hope we see you guys in Atlanta

23-02-2010 01:31

Duncan Macdonald

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Numbering the bottom was a nice touch.

23-02-2010 01:33

santosh

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

The girl in the back is not wearing safety goggles. not only is this a detriment to her own health but this sets a bad example to the many visitors to chiefdelphi.

Remember, Safety is for squares. Squares made up of the 4 equally important virtues of safety which include: Proper training, PROTECTION, proper attire, and common sense.
Please, nbext time you create a video such as this, please remember to wear your safety goggles. as a mentor of my own team, i often try and make a big deal of this because i have seen the horrors of machine shop accidents gone bad.
Sorry for the rant and good luck the rest of the season!

23-02-2010 02:03

Johnny

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

What is the mechanism that is locking onto the bar? How does it work?

23-02-2010 02:42

Paul Copioli

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

It is called a gate latch and we took the idea from the 217 1999 robot. Yes, we actually used something from our rookie year.

23-02-2010 02:50

Johnny

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Thats interesting. So the weight of the robot is holding the whole system in place. Awesome design 217 and 148. Hope we can compete with both of the teams at the championships!

23-02-2010 10:36

thefro526

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Now that I've watched this video five or more times, I feel like I can make an educated comment on "Armadillo" and the Team 148/217 (And whatever other teams are in this whole team IFI) Collaboration.

As I saw robots being posted up on CD this year, I kept thinking to myself "None of these robots have the capability to dominate a match". I began to think to myself that there would be no way any single machine could dominate a match this year, similar to lunacy.

Then I saw this video. I realized that Breakaway could be dominated. I also realized a lot of other things, things that I thought I already knew. I noticed that Team 148 (and presumably 217) do substantial amount of prototyping before they even start to design robots. This is where we've failed every year. We look at the game a design a machine from day one and we always are trying to finish as early as possible. I never thought to slow things down and prototype and research and just play around with some concepts. Maybe next year we'll have to take this new approach.

Regardless, Armadillo is surely one hell of a machine.

23-02-2010 11:28

CGuenther

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Just wanted to say that I saw your video, and your robot looks awesome. I love the kicking and hanging mechanism. Great job!

23-02-2010 12:08

Dmentor

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Team 148 has clearly spent a lot of time tailoring and streamlining their engineering process which enables them to spend more time in the early design steps. My occupational experience (and research in defect analysis) tells me that dedicating more time up front provides the biggest return on their labor investment. In order to generate this time, they have become extremely efficient in modeling, production, integration, and to some extent testing.

The beauty of teams like 148 is that they tell you exactly how they achieve their success (see JVN's engineering design whitepaper, full CAD models of 2008/2009 robots, and the "How it is Made" video among other resources they have produced). I think the trouble many teams have (mine included) is that the engineering process is applied ad hoc and even if following a proven process there is no analysis of the process itself for where to eliminate waste and optimize the implementation of each step. For example, if it takes to long to integrate subcomponents try modeling more. If it takes to long to model, train more students in the off season and become really proficient. I think without an efficient engineering process, the only hope teams have of being reliably competitive is to (1) out work the competition (probably not practical and it is a hard way to go even if it was) or (2) out think the competition (unreliable). Team 148 is demonstrating what engineering should be all about and is showing that it works!

23-02-2010 12:24

Kims Robot

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

BINGO... ie DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!!! If any regular team spent 3 weeks prototyping, they would be in a world of hurt because their parts would never get finished in time to even build a robot. I know this because in 2006 1511 spent that 3 weeks prototyping, and finally abandoned all prototypes and went with a concept we figured would work, no design, we just built it... fortunately we survived, but we most certainly did NOT come out with an elegant machine, and did not have enough test or programming time. Dmentor hit it on the head, its that they have trained their students and team so well on design, and have great manufacturing support and capability, and THAT allows them to prototype for that long to come up with the best solutions. Until you get to that level of engineering process, in my mind you CANNOT spend 3 weeks prototyping or you will shoot yourself in the foot.

I would still suggesting picking 1 design right up front and racing to finish it as fast as you can so you have debug and programming time at the end, unless you have an insanely well trained and well oiled team (hint use preseason wisely). My bet is that once they pick their designs, teams like 148 & 217 can crank out full designs in 4-5 days, manufacture in 3-4 days, and then still have time to test. 1511's best robot design was probably 2008, and that took us 4 weeks of CAD design, because we are NOT proficient enough. It worked for us because we picked the design by day 2, designed for 4 weeks, had parts built along the way and were left with about a week to debug & program, but there is no way we had time for 3 weeks of prototyping.

Maybe John or Paul could post a sample schedule that they follow...

23-02-2010 12:29

Chris Fultz

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

They did, it is in the Design Process paper.

23-02-2010 12:36

OathKpr95

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Dear god. Im actually fearing for the well-being of my robots life right now.

Then again I should expect nothing less from the team who made that absolute beast of a robot that we ocasionally had to compete with in last years Dallas regional. I look forward to seeing teh mayhem that your team will cause when we meet again in dallas .

23-02-2010 14:09

pilum40

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Whoa....our bot is primitive in comparision. We're concentrating on keeping things simple, running consistently, and being able to move/support our alliance teams this year by good defence, going through the tunnel/over the hump, and making those "garbarge goals" whenever possible. In comparison to y'all's bot...we're looking pretty lame.

See you in Dallas! We're from Summit International Prep-Our bot's name is GAGABot! Hope it doesn't turn into gaga-me-bot!

23-02-2010 17:00

umangv620

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

so epic. good job 148!!

23-02-2010 17:11

O'Sancheski

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

that bot is so awesome... i just can't believe how awesome that robot is... it is just amazing

23-02-2010 18:04

VanMan

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

This is great. I'm loving the video. What I fail to understand is how can all of this be done in 6 weeks? Students have school to attend, mentors have jobs to work. The drive base alone looks like it would take a team at least 6 weeks. And they were probably done by at least week 4 so they could debug and practice. I just don't understand how there are enough hours in the day to make a machine that is this amazing. This is truly amazing. You all better do well now that you have such a neat bot.

23-02-2010 19:40

ouellet348

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

calling winner of nationals right now, great job guys, best robot I have seen by far

23-02-2010 23:02

falconmaster

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Totally Awesome!

24-02-2010 01:15

Karibou

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Seconded. We spent 3 weeks prototyping last year (some things were designed during the process, though), and we barely got a somewhat-working robot in the bag. Even then, we still made a lot of tweaks - particularly in the code - at Kettering, which was our first competition. We had no practice time before bag, which, while unfortunately normal for us, is definitely something that would hurt a lot of teams. We managed to catch up with ourselves at Detroit, but Kettering was not a fun experience. Don't do it, folks!

24-02-2010 03:37

Arefin Bari

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I just checked to see if IFI's website have the kicker in stock...

... they don't. =(

24-02-2010 04:00

sanddrag

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Yeah, we got the last one. j/k

24-02-2010 11:27

Lil' Lavery

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

So I've had a couple days to salvate over this robot/piece of art, but I do have a couple questions.

First off, what's the purpose of the pole that extends beyond the hanging mechanism? Is that to aid with alignment?


Secondly, what prompted you to go with the dropping center omni wheel set-up, instead of just having the four articulating drive pods with mecanum wheels instead of omni (similar to what is shown on pg.4 of this paper)?
The only advantages that's obvious to me of your configuration is it's likely cheaper than buying/manufacturing mecanum wheels and you save some weight and money by using one fewer gearbox (as you can drive both sides of the robot together, but also have to add another one in for the center omni). But otherwise it seems like you're using an additional motor and point of articulation for no real benefit over a similar concept using mecanum wheels.
Also, are you using any sort of closed-loop control to try and account for uneven forces between the forward/reverse (where you have four motors operating) and lateral directions (where you only have one)?


Overall, it's obviously an absolutely gorgeous machine that I certainly hope I get the opportunity to examine at greater detail.

24-02-2010 13:48

Travis Hoffman

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

That was my thought - it also adds to the aggressive appearance of the robot.

What about an aid to self-right if they tip over - as if that would happen.

Maybe they can turn it into a confetti cannon - that surely must be the latest "major redesign" mentioned on John's Facebook.

24-02-2010 16:22

JVN

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

The pole serves two main purposes, you've got the first one right. The driver can "slap" our pole onto the tower and then drive forward until the claw latch is engaged. We experimented with all sorts of "docking aids" but this simple pole worked pretty well.

The second purpose is to extend the "claw" for the purposes of self-righting the robot.

-John

24-02-2010 16:23

JVN

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

We refer to the 5-omni setup as something called a "Slide Drive". When you combine a slide drive with 4 drop down traction wheels you get what we're calling "Nonadrive" (not Nano Drive as Mike Copioli seems to think...)

Why do we use a slide drive?

Here is the quantitative part:
1. This drive allows for the front and rear wheels to be "linked" without needing a ball differential or anything like that. If one wheel comes off the ground, you still have the full power available on the other wheel.

2. We have 4 motors worth of power pointing forward/backward at all times. With a Mecanum drive, you only get part of this. (The mecanum drive has better side-side power than our 1-CIM, but we don't care.

3. The "slide drive" part of the Nonadrive is 100% intuitive to control, with ZERO programming. This is not meant to discount the efforts of our incredible programmers (148 and 217 have some GREAT ones), but the slide drive can be fully utilized with default code, and its control would be identical to Halo, Call of Duty or any other FPS videogame.

Here is the "not so quantitative" part:

This will be a controversial statement...
In all of my competition robotics experience I have never encountered any drivetrain (swerve, mecanum, or omni) that drives as well as our slide drives. Maybe it has something to do with a lack of programming. Maybe it has something to do with a driver's mental block. I don't know. What I do know is that you put a slide drive in the hands of a good FRC driver, and they'll be almost immediately doing maneuvers that make your head spin.

Before you knee-jerk and reply, remember who you're talking to. We understand design tradeoffs. We understand your value propositions may be different than ours.

Honestly, I expected more people to ask us "Why the heck did you do THAT instead of just doing a swerve or mecanum drive?" My answer is... "If you built one and drove it, you'd understand."


Nope. The slide wheel is positioned near enough to the CG that she moves sideways almost straight as an arrow. The same can be said for forward and reverse, even without the traction wheels down. No complicated control needed. For testing (before we had any of the other electronics wired up) I took a VEX PIC Microcontroller from inventory, hooked the Victors up and we drove it with default code. Really.

-John

24-02-2010 16:32

JVN

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Someone asked earlier,
When the traction wheels are down, ALL the omni wheels are lifted off the ground. We further lift the center one to allow for traversing the bumps. On the fall prototype, this wheel didn't need to be lifted so it was just spring-loaded downwards.

Curious about how a drivetrain performs with (4X) 2"-wide high traction wheels located on the outer corners in a "narrow body" configuration?
Check out this whitepaper: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/1443
You should be able to tell me how it handles...
This was not an accident, but a desired feature of the Nonadrive.

Also note... we have the front and rear pneumatic cylinders on different solenoids. This allows us to independently drop the front/rear traction wheels. We call this "2+2 Mode." When you're in 2+2 mode, the drivetrain turns about a point directly in between the two lowered traction wheels. This allows the driver some cool handling options.

Our primary drive mode is on 5-omnis.
We only use 2+2 Mode and Traction Mode for specialized operations and circumstances.

-John

24-02-2010 17:06

JesseK

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Hmm. I wouldn't have thought of it as a desired effect ... interesting.

24-02-2010 17:21

AdamHeard

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Do you have any programming that gives you a psuedo-omnidirectional drive when in the 5-wheel setup, or is setup as tank with strafing?

24-02-2010 17:26

JVN

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

It cannot translate straight while rotating automatically (if that is what you're asking about...)

Seriously... to get an understanding of how it works, think of playing Halo. Any move you can make (X-Y direction only ) the robot can do with default code. It doesn't take a good driver to arc about a fixed point outside the robot.

24-02-2010 18:01

roboticWanderor

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

he means circle-strafing. keep in mind this is also using the two analog sticks on the x-box controller, this maneuver would be harder using KOP joysticks. i cant wait to see their operator interface this year, they are always so elegant, and portable!

also, a really talented driver could "translate straight while rotating automatically", if you can do it in halo, you can do it with nonadrive. theoretically. this would involve making the drive vector point in the same direction relative to the field, i.e. spinning the movement stick while keeping the rotation constant. easier said than done, but i have seen it in halo.

24-02-2010 18:25

Lil' Lavery

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I think you may have misunderstood what I was asking, though the more I read your response the more it seems like you might have gotten it.

Many, including you, have seen my personal feelings about [pure] mecanum drives (you even commented on my facebook rant). I wasn't suggesting comparing the nonadrive to a simple mecanum.

But rather I was comparing the "slide drive" portion of it to a mecanum drive. You could replace the four omni-wheels with mecanums and still be able to accomplish any strafing with equal results.
You are also correct about a mecanum drive losing power when wheels lose contact with the ground (barring, as you mentioned, differentials of some sort). This isn't a major issue with chain/gear-linked "sides" of drive trains.
Granted, I was operating under the (apparently incorrect) assumption that you would be operating in the traction wheels drive configuration for most forward/reverse driving (though even a "2+2" also applies to my assumption). The "slide drive" does, in fact, move in forward/reverse more efficiently than a mecanum drive.
Operating under that assumption, I was basically considering the two drives in terms of strafing and rotational ability, in both of which the mecanum drive is advantageous compared to the slide drive.

Knowing the characteristics of the traction wheel set-up, it really comes up to how you want to drive the machine in order to justify any engineering trade-offs. Given the way you stated you wanted to drive it, I absolutely understand the reasoning behind your design choices.

Also note, I never was attempting to call into question your design choices, but rather just seeking more information about why you made the ones you did. And there were indeed some factors I didn't take into consideration, and learned more about your design philosophy and your strategy for playing the game.

I was more wondering about diagonal motion. With different total torques in either cardinal direction, an input of a "45 degree motion" isn't going to immediately produce a 45 degree motion from the robot because the acceleration in each cardinal direction will be different. Granted, this could be accomplished by using different gearing on the wheels, but then the total speeds would have to be reduced (on the faster geared wheels only, obviously) in order to produce a 45 degree motion.
This really isn't a big concern at all, I was just curious if you felt it was an issue. It's easily adaptable by a skilled driver (though we all know that kid down there can't drive his way out of a paper bag, so maybe he might need programming help ).

As a side note, how is she going to be controlled? Given the amount of options available, I'd assume you're using some sort of game controller in order to have enough buttons readily available to the driver.

24-02-2010 18:29

Jamie Kalb

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Ah. I was going to ask about that. Makes a whole lot of sense! This isn't the only robot you'll see in 2+2 mode...

But in 2+2 mode, doesn't the CG placement affect the pivot point? I thought you pivot about a point that's a sort of an "average" of 1.) the point between the traction wheels and 2.) the CG. Is that not right?

25-02-2010 20:37

R1ffSurf3r

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Is the top roller the only one that is powered, or does the bottom one spin also?

25-02-2010 20:48

Akash Rastogi

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I find myself watching this video over and over just because I don't know the name of the song. Anyone know the name?

25-02-2010 22:37

Travis Hoffman

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I endured the torture of straining to discern English utterances in between all the screaming and ultimately happened upon...

Refused - New Noise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8MkVIe9xGc

I vote for Dean Simmons to cover this at IRI. Bring back the mosh pit from '04!

25-02-2010 22:49

Racer26

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I just love the "death spin". Did I hear JVN or Paul allude to the magnet being able to hold a ball while deathspinning? I'm DYING to see that.

26-02-2010 08:38

Salbert

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

In 2008, your Tumbleweed robot had me befuddled on how it could possibly win ANY matches at all, and produced a laughing response from our team captain. And it won at the Championship.

This robot has me asking myself how it the world could it NOT win.

Your robot is amazing. I love your drive train. Good luck, not that you'll need it.

26-02-2010 09:04

JaneYoung

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

It won because of the amazing ability of 148 to work with their alliance partners in ways that were a combination of dance, art, and tough competitive brilliance, even when Tumbleweed struggled at times. I thought it was visionary. If you ever get a chance to talk to members of 148 about Tumbleweed, do it.

I hope to hear a lot about Armadillo in that same (but different) amazing way. She's got the moves.

Jane

26-02-2010 09:28

Salbert

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

When I say I was befuddled, it was before I actually saw them in any matches. Once I saw a few matches, I thought they were interesting, but I still didn't think they'd win.

This year, MARS is emphasizing the value of teamwork, like they did with Tumbleweed, with a ramp robot.

We indeed learned the importance of alliance support from them in 2008.

26-02-2010 12:59

drtysteve384

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Holy #$@%!!! that is insane...nice work like the kicker design...I wish our team thought of that...and i like lifter, that thing is beaslty, what regionals are yall going to by chance?

04-03-2010 17:31

JVN

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Since Armadillo's twin Mia is competing this weekend and word will probably be out soon anyways, I thought I'd take a minute to discuss a somewhat "controversial" change we made to the robot...

Here is the rough timeline:
Our video was shot on the Saturday before ship, the video itself was edited during the day Sunday and released that Sunday evening... On Monday evening the Robowranglers held an open-house for the Greenville community, then put the robot in the crate late that night (early the next morning).

After the video shoot on Saturday night we (in typical "continuous improvement" fashion) began to discuss what we needed to improve.

We were concerned about the durability of the drivetrain, but didn't have any weight to spare to reinforce it. We were also disappointed at the way the robot traversed the bumps and felt lowering the CG would greatly improve the robots performance.

Early on in our game analysis (day of kickoff) we were trying to do cost-benefit analysis to determine how much those 2-points for hanging would really be worth. At the time we couldn't really tell, because we had no idea how hard it would be to score and had no "easy" way to simulate it. Playing with the actual robot gave us more of an idea of how many balls a match a robot could score.

At the start of our meeting Sunday, we made the decision to remove the hanging mechanism. We would use that weight to reinforce the drivetrain, and lower the CG. By the time the video was posted on Sunday night, the new "baller" Armadillo was up and running. She goes over the bumps smooth as silk forward and backwards, and the drivetrain has been significantly reinforced.

I know some people will question our decision to give up the hanging. I see it as a "no-brainer". When the decision was made, it was like a weight was lifted from my shoulders.

The Thunderchickens went through a similar analysis and made the same decision. Neither robot will be hanging for 2 points this year.

So thank you for all the compliments on our hanging, but you won't ever see Armadillo or Mia do that in competition. Instead you'll see a new-and-improved version of the drivetrain, on a lean, mean, soccer-ball scoring machine.

-John

04-03-2010 17:35

Akash Rastogi

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Our hanger is also the first thing to go when we add our new kicker for Boston.

I was wondering though, could you please still bring the arm with you to Atlanta? I'd love to get a nice look at it.

04-03-2010 17:36

JVN

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

We put it in the crate, it'll be there.

04-03-2010 17:39

Akash Rastogi

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Sweet, thanks

04-03-2010 17:48

Jacob Paikoff

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Thats too bad, I really liked your arm.

And thats leads me to a question I have, how much does your drivetrain weight?

Robot looks great by the way, maybe we'll be in same division

04-03-2010 17:59

Chris is me

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

If you're not using your arm, can I borrow it?

Kudos to 148217 for making a gutsy move that will apparently pay off for them.

04-03-2010 18:09

sgreco

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

That is a very interesting trade-off. I like it...I may not agree with the tradeoff, but this is a perfect example of how tradeoffs need to be made, and how design is an iterative process. Every team makes different trade-offs. I really appreciate you posting this and letting us know, it's cool to see how other team's make design decisions.

On the other side, my team's decsion regarding this topic was quite the antithesis. We figured teams wouldn't be switching zones with much frequency, and it would be worth putting more weight into our lift and kicker and just take an extra second or so to get over the bump. This is the great thing about FIRST: seeing how other team's decsions differed from your own, and seeing how the trade-offs made early on (and later on) affect performance, then learning from the decisons made.

I hope this works for you, I can't wait to see it in action! 148 and 217 are the quintessential examples of teams to look up to and strive to emulate, thanks for the inspiration you have provided to us all!

04-03-2010 18:37

robodude03

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

We made that exact same decision in the final week of build. I have to say that I feel much better knowing that other teams felt the same way about hanging, particularly 148 and 217.

It was a difficult decision for us to make and we thought long and hard about the trade-off. In the end mentors and students came to a decision that this was the best move for us to make. Strengthen our drive train, lower the CG, and develop a new way to play this game.

04-03-2010 18:42

Chris is me

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

I guess I don't feel their feelings about hanging are at all universal. That's not what I took away from the post, at least. Not "all robots would be sufficiently better with hanging resources moved elsewhere", but "the 148 and 217 robots work >=2 points better without a hanger" (and evidently 399 is the same).

Then again, I could be rationalizing due to the costs sunk into my own team's hanger...

04-03-2010 19:03

robodude03

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

Don't get me wrong, I am definitely not discrediting other teams' decision to hang. As a team we felt that we wanted to focus on making our other systems stronger and as a result we scrapped our hanging ability. As was mentioned, it was a trade-off that we felt we had to make, in part to lower our CG.

04-03-2010 21:55

R.C.

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

John,

We ended up making the same decision, we felt that weight should be put elsewhere. So we improved our roller considerably and our kicker.

Can't wait to see MIA and Armadillo in action.

-RC

06-03-2010 23:04

WJF2011

Re: pic: Team 148 - Robowranglers 2010 - Armadillo

good luck, i wish we could get our parts shopped so beautifully at GM. Sadly though, we are not sponsored by them. Great Robot! I am scared to face the Armadillo.