28-02-2010 15:47

Stephen Kowski

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

what is the backstory behind this? donated? just showing off to the high school?

28-02-2010 15:56

DarkFlame145

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

XD great idea, but Electric cars aren't ready for mass production. Too expensive, too heavy, and don't have a great range. Cool car though and I like the color.

28-02-2010 16:10

Salbert

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

Our robot driver's dad works for Tesla, so he brought one to tell us about the engineering behind it.

28-02-2010 16:13

sparrowkc

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

The Tesla came in the blue tote. This is why you should always inventory your KOP before the replacement window closes!

28-02-2010 16:15

GGCO

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

Is it just me, or does this picture look photoshopped?

If you guys have $100,000 to spend on a Tesla, I can't wait to see your robot!

28-02-2010 16:20

Stephen Kowski

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

search for the nissan leaf.....nissan apparently disagrees with you

28-02-2010 16:33

BrendanB

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

And the Chevy Volt. It isn't completely electric or ready (will be in a few months) but it is still will be available soon.

28-02-2010 16:35

artdutra04

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

The 1990s called, and they want their electric car characteristics back.

Several major car companies are on track to roll out all electric cars in the next few years (like the Nissan Leaf, Tesla Model S), and several more are working on plug-in hybrid vehicles (like the Chevy Volt) that will entirely electric for X number of miles, then switch to a hybrid operation. For the Chevy Volt, that X is 40 miles. The average American drives 29 miles per day, which means if the average American bought a Chevy Volt they'd never have to buy gas ever again, unless they went on a road trip or other extended length journey.

28-02-2010 16:55

DarkFlame145

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

Sure 40 miles would be great if you live within 20 miles of work, but i know a lot of people that have an hour or more commute one way. The normal combustion engine has a lot left to offer in fuel economy. A company has a new bearing that will cut friction by a ton and improve fuel economy. I'm not saying electric vehicles are not a good option in the future, but the technology is not there yet. Maybe in 5 or 10 years it will. But there are some major road blocks in the way, such as weight, the amount of batteries (mostly laptop batteries) adds too much weight, which hurts range and performance. The Tesla weighs 2723lbs, while the car it is based on is a Lotus which weighs around 2000lbs. Most of that extra weight is from the batteries. Granted there is a company developing a compound that weighs similar to a sheet a paper that will hold a charge. The current and near future electric vehicles are a great start, just not the answer to replace the current combustion engines yet. By the way, I am a diesel person, which in my eyes is the best way to improve the modern car/truck

28-02-2010 17:15

IndySam

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

The problem with all electric cars is our infrastructure. You replace even as few as 5% of cars with electric and in the summertime you have huge supply problems in many parts of the country.

So along with building these cool vehicles we need to rebuild our electricity production and delivery systems.

All you smart your students need to work it out and save our old butts!

28-02-2010 17:21

DarkFlame145

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

Not to mention if you live inner city (where an electric car would be most effective), were do you plug it in at currently?

28-02-2010 18:38

BrendanB

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

That is one reason they can't mass produce electric cars becuase they don't have plugs in every gas station, plus they take time to charge. That is why the Volt is becoming popular as it goes 40 miles on electric, switches to gas, and charges the battery in that time.

Oh darn I'll just keep filling my sister's 1990 Camry with 35mpg until they come out.

28-02-2010 18:52

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

Yay, a debate!

Oh, wait the topic is on the feasibility of marketing and mass producing an electric car... Well, I'm not a statistician, so I really shouldn't speak about the statistics of the issue. I'm not a marketing guy, so I can't speak to the issue of selling them. I'm not a civil engineer, so I can't speak to the grid requirements.

However, I am a car enthusiast, and I can speak to the fact that driving a Tesla was one of the most incredible experiences I've had, and puts any doubt out of my mind that electric isn't good enough for America.

28-02-2010 19:08

DarkFlame145

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

I honestly dont see why everyone is so excited for the Volt, its not a pure electric vehicle, its a new style of Hybrid (A much better system of hybrid then was it out already). But the point of an electric vehicle is to not need the use of gas. But yet everyone is praising how the Volt is the next Prius. Part of it is how GM is advertising it. But a hybrid of any type is not the fix to the emissions problems the modern combustion engine, its just putting a band-aid on a very large gash. Sure it will help, but its not a fix. As I had stated before an Electric car will not work for most people until the weight comes down, the price comes down, the charging time (all three will happen, just who knows how long it will take), and the problem of where to charge it at. We are going to have to put curb side charging stations all over our cities. I mean if you live in the country or in a small town it's no problem, just run an extension cord, since they will charge off 110V. Every single alternative energy powertrain for cars have so many road blocks, why not just make the modern combustion engine more efficient? I mean Diesel is a great alternative to gas. Why not focus of developing more and better diesel engines?

28-02-2010 19:15

Salbert

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

Haha! It's not ours, but one of our member's dad works for Tesla, so he has a corporate car. And no, it's not photo-shopped. And while our robot is rather low tech compared to the Tesla, we think it'll do fine.

He talked to us about why it costs over $100,000 (this one is about $150K), the engineering behind it, and the type of infrastructure needed for mass electric cars (for example battery exchanges instead of gas stations). From what MARS learned, electric car technology is advancing quickly and costs will start falling soon. Right now, it's like back when a flat screen plasma TV was $20,000.

Whether the electric infrastructure can handle 250 million electric cars in the future is up to us as FRC students!

By the way, there's more pictures of the Tesla on our photo gallery.

28-02-2010 19:27

EricH

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

Every alternative energy drivetrain has roadblocks. True.

Why not focus on developing better engines of your favorite variety (diesel or gas)?

Because at some point, it becomes economically non-viable to do so. If it was economically viable to engineer an engine to have 60 MPG right now, you can bet that somebody would have done so! But at the present time, it's not economically viable. Give it a couple of years or so.

Why are people working on EV technology? Because it may not be economically viable right now, but it's getting very close. As soon as it is, you can bet that the companies that currently have the technology to make EVs will be making money hand over fist, as they'll either have the market-ready stuff, or they'll be making a lot in patent royalties from other companies that are building EVs using their technology. And, what they're working on can improve the hybrids.

The obstacles to an EV are simple: Range (how far you can drive without charging), Price (those batteries are expensive), Charge time, Performance, Size/weight. All of those are improving.

28-02-2010 19:32

Tanner

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

I find it slightly funny this topic shifted to a discussion on electric vs gas cars.

Neat picture. Would've been nice to get a shot of the motor (guess I can't call it a "engine"), but I would've been to excited to worry about pictures. Very cool.

-Tanner

28-02-2010 19:38

Salbert

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

We've got a picture of the engine here. It's in the trunk.

28-02-2010 19:46

XaulZan11

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

First, there is not and probably will never be one solution to climate change/our overdependence on oil. We need to cut down a little here and a little there. So, if you are waiting for the perfect solution, you will be waiting a very very very long time. I think we should use these economically efficient and environmentally friendly technologies while we are researching bigger and better technologies.

28-02-2010 20:13

BrendanB

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

Um climate change will never end! It is defined by changes in weather patterns.

28-02-2010 20:33

DarkFlame145

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

Emissions from cars are a major source of green house gases. Some people are under the impression that driving a hybrid vehicle will help "save the planet." Even though studies have shown that hybrid drivers tend to drive more then none hybrid owners. Also when you scrap a hybrid you end up doing more damage due to the batteries being dumped. Trust me I know that there is no one fix, but if people want to try to make a eco friendly car, then go hydrogen. All it puts out is water and oxygen.

28-02-2010 20:47

XaulZan11

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

That's good, right? The people that are driving the most should be using the most efficient cars. Or are you saying that having a hyrid makes you drive more and thus leds to more CO2 emissions? Darn, this would be a lot easier is correlation did mean causation...

But, your point about disposing the batteries is probably valid. I'm sure all those smart engineers can solve that, though.

28-02-2010 20:57

Ian Curtis

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

When you buy a Tesla Roadster, your purchase cost also pays to have the battery pack recycled at the end of it's life. Toyota also pays to have Prius batteries recycled, so I assume that cost is hidden somewhere's in the purchase price as well.

I am not sure how other manufacturers work, but I imagine (or at least hope!) that they also have a recycling plan.

28-02-2010 21:16

MARS_James

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

Sal those are the batteries

28-02-2010 21:55

Stephen Kowski

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

once again LEAF, NISSAN LEAF 100 mi range, NOT A HYBRID

will be OUT TO MARKET THIS YEAR

everyone wants to talk about the energy potential of gasoline, but when you are getting 20% efficiency it really can't compare to an electric vehicle that has efficiency somewhere between 75%-90%.....if it had much more to offer we wouldn't be sitting at the same efficiency numbers that we had 30-40 years ago

Also you should look into the new nano phosphate batteries (A123 prismatic, Altair NanoSafe) that are being made. Also it may be beneficial to look up and read some materials from the USABC, you may be surprised.

I am not suggesting they will replace every user's needs immediately, but certainly the commuters that travel to and from work 50 miles.....thats a lot of zero emission cars....keep your hummer but make your commuter car electric and eventually your range concerns will be handled (also the whole supply demand thing comes into play with the price of gas)

28-02-2010 23:35

coldfusion1279

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

One major obstacle to pure electric cars like this is the strain it put on the power grid. Whoever said infrastructure was right, but not about "where to plug it in" but where the power is coming from. This switches a huge volume of cars from chemical energy to electrical energy. A switch that many parts of the country probably cannot currently handle if these cars are successful.

That being said, I will go back to drooling at the Tesla.

01-03-2010 03:51

artdutra04

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

You're right, the electric grid in this country is barely adequate to serve our current peak demand periods, and is due anyway for major investment in upgraded infrastructure to handle the expected population growth of 100 million people over the next fifty years. The only problem are the selfish NIMBYs who bought property next to existing high voltage transmission lines then fight any plan to upgrade the power lines to handle more juice, but then rabidly complain any time their electricity goes out for more than a second that the electric company should do more to prevent blackouts.

Any major push to upgrade the electric grid would probably also occur concurrently with the construction of new nuclear, new renewable, and new natural gas plants. Right now the American Midwest is to wind what Saudi Arabia is to oil; we only need to harvest this power and get it to our cities. Also, installing wind turbines on farmland in the nations heartland can help struggling farmers.

While the wind isn't always blowing, put enough wind turbines over a large enough area, and you'll see that the output of the entire wind farm will be pretty stable. But even so, renewable energy can be complimented by natural gas; with very little pollution and the ability to bring a natural gas power plant to full generating capacity in 20 minutes (oil and coal plants take an entire day to "warm up"), the natural gas plants can offset any temporary loss in wind. Then to provide a stable backbone of the electric grid, nuclear. But, construction of any new nuclear plants should proceed cautiously until we finally start building the Yucca Mountain containment facility.

There are also other ideas to harness the excess energy of wind when their isn't sufficient demand, and it can come in the form of either pumped water energy storage or centrifuge storage. In the former, excess electricity is used to pump water from a low location to a really high location. Then when electric demand increases, they open the gates on the upper reservoir and let the potential energy of the water generate electricity. There are already numerous power plants like this already stationed all across the world.

Another idea for energy storage I saw a few years ago was to put heavy cylindrical masses in a nearly perfect vacuum, then use magnetic bearings such they they would be suspended in place without touching anything. Then when there is excess electricity, electromagnets begin spinning the huge mass faster and faster. Since the masses are held in a vacuum with magnetic bearings, there is essentially no friction (only an ever so slight amount due to our inability to generate a perfect vacuum), and thus once spinning can stay that way for weeks or months without any additional input. Then when demand turns around, you can use the electromagnets to pull energy off the spinning masses, and sell that electricity back to the electric grid.

Rather than look at new and upcoming ideas and ask "Why?", we should be asking "Why not?". For every potential problem with new technology, someone, somewhere is most likely working on a fix to make it better. And if they aren't, then patent your idea and do it yourself! Let's finally create that awesome future with lunar bases and bullet trains and clean air from electric cars and robot butlers and commercial space flight and everything else we've been promised for decades. We as a society are always moving forward, always progressing, so let's not let cynicism about imperfections in current and upcoming technology hold us back from implementing and solving these issues, and in the process improving the health and well being of society.

01-03-2010 14:49

Matt C

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

Electric car? It's the wave of the future!

01-03-2010 15:11

Marc P.

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

The energy problem isn't so much with the infrastructure itself, or how much power it produces, but with the amount of demand placed upon it. It's not so much necessary to produce more electricity as it is to reduce how much electricity is used. Often enough I see and hear messages on TV and radio about conserving energy, switching to energy efficient lights, appliances, heating/cooling systems for air and water, etc. I wonder how much energy could be saved if enough people actually took the initiative and did all they could to reduce energy consumption both at home and at work, especially as the cost of energy efficient appliances and equipment falls as they become more common.

Dean Kamen himself is a prime example. There was an article on MSNBC a few years ago highlighting his island's energy independence. The article states that just by switching the island's lighting to LEDs, the electrical use dropped by at least half. Granted LED lighting fixtures aren't the cheapest things on the market at the moment, but as they become more prevalent costs will drop. If LED lights were to replace the majority of incandescent, and even CFL bulbs, the demand on the electric infrastructure would fall by a noticeable amount, opening up capacity to charge electric vehicles.

Something else that caught my eye on Slashdot this morning was a Caltech press release stating they've been able to produce flexible solar cells that are 85% efficient in sunlight. Build them into the frames of electric vehicles, or panel a building's roof with them, and you're offsetting your demand from the grid, again opening up capacity to charge electric vehicles.

As for the range of pure electric vehicles, I personally drive 13 miles to work, and 13 miles home every day. 40 miles is plenty of range for my needs, and enough for many people I know to get to work and back home without the need to charge during the day.

17-11-2012 04:55

bEdhEd

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

My envy is so incredible right now. I could just imagine a Tesla for my team in hunter green and black, and with accents of gold and white.

17-11-2012 08:46

MooreteP

Re: pic: MARS 1523: Our New Tesla

No No No.

Energy can be neither created nor destroyed, it can only change form. And every time it changes form, nature takes a tax in the form of heat.

1) Hydrogen is the smallest atom, building a "cage" to effectively contain it is nigh impossible. It is also one of the most corrosive elements.

2) What process are you going to use to get your hydrogen gas? What would be its efficiency? In this process, there will be more pollutants than just "water".

In films, we often see car crashes that result in spectacular "explosions". That, like sound and fire in the vacuum of space, is a cinematic conceit. But if we had hydrogen fueled vehicles, it would become a reality. And then some.

The internal combustion engine has achieved an impressive state of the art efficiency and will be hard pressed to go beyond 50 mpg unless we can find a way to enclose all roadways in vacuum tubes. (exhausting the heat energy then becomes an issue )

Hybrids are effective at converting kinetic energy to electrical and back again with a small tax in heat to provide the same efficiency in the stop and go drive in a city per the highway.
However, the environmental cost of the batteries is no small consideration.

The previous post regarding pumped and centrifugal storage for peak vs. non-peak supply provides a good idea.

Volvo is working on a hybrid that stores braking energy in a small centrifugal storage unit. It is mechanical, lightweight, and has little of the environmental drawbacks of battery storage.
http://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/vol...e-braking.html

There is also work being done with Ultra Capacitors that store the electrical energy physically vs. chemically. This is also better than batteries in that they are lighter. However, bridge the gap and you could be killed.

Emergency workers have been trained on using the "Jaws of Life" to free accident victims in hybrids. Cutting the cables on a hybrid vehicle with their higher voltage systems is an issue.
http://gas2.org/2009/01/25/dont-get-electricuted/

So, to forestall the inevitable DT's of our addiction to fossil fuels.
Nuclear plant baseloading, Wind and solar supplements spread around the grid in our homes and communities. Geothermal heat pumps where practical and solar street lights.

Of course, none of this will matter after 12/21/12 , but just in case, we can prep.