14-06-2010 19:47

Rion Atkinson

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

That's awesome. You should put a chair and seat belt on there. Perhaps a little safer?

Still... I love the idea. Did it help?

14-06-2010 19:58

Bjenks548

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

Haha we rode our robot around at a freshman orientation like this (along with dragging 3 people). We also have "chair bot" which was our v2 drive train, a six wheel with a chair on top of it (the school doesnt know where the chair went...) unfortuanly "chair bot" isn't powered but we still have fun with it.

14-06-2010 20:09

gorrilla

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

That is unsafe. No safety glasses and you're riding on the robot?
Not to mention the possibility of a chain grabbing and pinching various body parts

14-06-2010 21:01

Alex Cormier

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

Exactly how I feel. If you are going to show pictures or videos like an above poster has mentioned. Please think of safety. Also, what would your team think if you damaged any part of the robot let alone yourself?

Think people.

14-06-2010 22:03

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

Yes, safety glasses are important! They will definitely do a great deal when your cranium possibly impacts the floor at a decent velocity, or when the robot bucks you into a wall!

It's the act that is unsafe, not the lack of (nearly useless in this situation) equipment.

14-06-2010 22:57

Edoc'sil

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

Lighten up safety addicts, your like the plague. Honestly, the best way to teach someone how to swing a hammer is to let him smack his thumbs a few times... It is unlikely that someone will retain permanent damage from ridding their bot, and they could learn a few valuable lessons on the teachings of Darwin and Newton....

14-06-2010 23:05

gorrilla

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

That statement scares me, there is absolutely no reason for someone to get hurt when it could have been prevented. Regardless of the lesson they would learn.

14-06-2010 23:07

Edoc'sil

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

Honestly, I heal now, I won't heal so well when I am old. Better to make my mistakes now, no?

14-06-2010 23:11

gorrilla

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

Honestly, why make the mistake at all?
While what you are saying is somewhat true, the logic defys me....

14-06-2010 23:12

,4lex S.

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

Better to make mistakes never actually.

To be fair though, doing this kind of thing is pretty common practice, and as long as everyone is relatively careful, mostly safe. This was the only way my team had of testing on the Regolith with close to full weight in 2009. When done with a little forethought, it isn't terrible (Chain guards are important, and so is electrical isolation). Do remember to consider and eliminate hazards before you do this kind of thing though. And if it seems kinda sketchy, just don't.

14-06-2010 23:12

Alex Cormier

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

How many fingers should a punch press worker loose before they learn to use the machine properly?

14-06-2010 23:24

Edoc'sil

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

That is different, a punch removes a finger far more easily then a decently shielded DT, also that is a adult at a business, not a kid ridding a robot. I did make the age distinction for a reason, in general a workplace, especially a operating machine shop, tends to be more dangerous then a school. I would strongly suggest safety when losing limbs is possible as a consequence.
possible the kid on the bot could break a few fingers and get some other more serious damage to his fingers, but the chance of it removing a finger are fare less then on an industrial tool.

14-06-2010 23:26

Chris is me

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

Drivetrains with more shielding than this one have sheared fingers before.

14-06-2010 23:39

Basel A

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

The point is not that probably, nothing will happen, or that it's mainly safe. It's not that in youth injuries will heal, or that robots are more safe than machines. It's the point that this was a situation that was LESS SAFE than it COULD be. I'm no advocate of blast shields on FRC fields, but at least make an effort. It's easier to learn from someone who lost a finger than to lose a finger yourself. In consideration of that, it may have been better to wear safety glasses, add a seat, ensure electrical isolation (probably done already), or simply use dumbbells or other athletic weights.

Again, it all comes down to the fact that you know it could and should be safer, but aren't making it any safer. Easier to learn from another person's experience than your own.

14-06-2010 23:50

Edoc'sil

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

Ehh, I think your a bunch of pansies, you think I am an idiot. Guess I really don't care, I am done with the whole first thing anyways.

14-06-2010 23:56

Alan Anderson

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

A constant awareness of safety is a plague I would welcome.

15-06-2010 00:35

Andrew Schreiber

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

As someone who has done their fair share of stupid "unsafe" actions statements like this scare me. While I generally agree with the live and let learn approach to teaching safety is the one thing it will never apply to in my book. What you may consider a minor injury (a bruise or a decent cut) some parents may consider negligence. While I hate to be "that guy" I have to point out that if a parent gets lawsuit happy the school could decide to shut us down.

Now, do I think that riding a bot is inherently dangerous? Not if done with caution. For example, this one doesn't seem to be moving in the picture. I assume it moved at some point in time during the demo though. The rider should most definitely be wearing a helmet. His hands seem clear of the chain and it looks like he is resting his weight on the main frame of the robot...

That being said, why was this done? We once thought about doing this during prototyping to weight the robot down but then realized the less stupid way of doing it would be to use lead blocks.

15-06-2010 00:36

JamJam263

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

While it is a good looking picture, I have to agree with they safety concerns.

15-06-2010 01:08

EricH

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

A smart person learns from his own mistakes. A genius learns from everyone else's mistakes in addition to his own.

Something about nobody ever living long enough to make all the mistakes themselves...

Yes, the drivetrain is apparently shielded. Yes, he does seem to have a good grip on the robot. However, if that robot moves, I would expect anybody riding it to a) not be riding it or b) be wearing appropriate safety gear (helmet, safety glasses, possibly gloves) and c) have extra handles attached for extra grab by a rider. Oh, and a very easy-to-get-to main breaker and E-stop in case something does go wrong.

The other thing is this little thing called insurance. If somebody got hurt doing something like this, insurance companies would make a big deal. Then, there goes the team due to a chain of events. I know at my workplace (a go-kart track), every track worker wears a helmet and ankle-high work boots (and most of us wear steel-toe work boots) due to insurance 'requests" (low ceilings and karts that could hit you if you can't jump fast enough are apparently dangerous). Not to mention the height requirements, which are strict because of insurance.

I think I made myself clear in that: safety is not unimportant.

15-06-2010 01:31

jason701802

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

Although your concerns about insurance companies are legitimate, his chance of being injured is far lower than his chance of getting in a serious car wreck on his way to school that morning. As long as the driver is being careful, not going very fast or accelerating quickly, his danger of being injured in negligible.

Considering his position of the robot, there is no feasible way that any of his limbs could get caught in any moving parts.

P.S. why don't some of you go harp on the people making PVC t-shirt cannons? they are immeasurably more dangerous than this.

15-06-2010 01:41

Steven Sigley

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

Did someone say robot chair?

Meet the SigWay.

A chairbot I built that was named after me. Got to ride it around a few times a week or two before graduating and then just a little after as you can tell by this picture. I think it's my coolest achievement because a lot of the work done on it was by me and an underclassmen, Josie Murphy.

http://www.vandenrobotics.com/plogge...icture&id=3255

15-06-2010 07:20

fireyoshi

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

I was the driver. I always made sure his hands were away from the chain, made sure we had constant communication, and made sure the e-stop was close by. This was done in front of a college-styled classroom (tiered seats and desks) so we had about 25 feet of room. The robot was also tethered with a shorter than usual ethernet, so we didn't have a lot of leeway to drive. All I did was drive forward 10 ft at about 1-3 fps. Stop. Drive backwards at the same rate. Stop. Repeat about 3 times. We didn't go down the hall at full speed or crash into the walls or anything to that vein. Skateboarding, bicycle riding, and four wheeling (all three very popular in my area) are way more dangerous than what we did. If anyone else has any more questions please ask away.

15-06-2010 09:14

Ryan Dognaux

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

Read this thread and ask this person whether your theory holds up - http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ghlight=safety

Better safe than sorry.

15-06-2010 10:24

JesseK

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

Talking safety to a teenage goofball or adrenaline junky of any age is correlative to talking about Wine to Isaac Newton while he was sitting under the apple tree: the underlying concept is there but it is much less valued than that which interests them.

We need an emoticon for the expression "beating a dead horse".

15-06-2010 15:22

EricH

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

We do--every time one gets posted. There hasn't been one posted for a month or two.

15-06-2010 15:32

Andrew Schreiber

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

And the chances of a plane crash are even lower but we still have to hear those lectures every time we fly. I fail to see the point of this comparison however since he isn't driving a car he was doing a pointless activity.

Put a helmet on him at LEAST. The human skull is not that durable and head injuries are nasty. Yeah, it may make him look silly but so will having a fracture in his skull or permanent brain damage.

As for your PS, just because you don't want to hear something doesn't make it "harping on something".

15-06-2010 19:11

iblis432

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

Do I think this was unsafe? Yes. Do i ask everyone here not to drive their car because a drunk driver might be on the road tonight? no. Could the drink i be drinking right now be spiked with poison? Possibly. There's always a risk, this carried a greater one then others. But I fail to see the significance in telling him he was stupid when we should be happy he's ok. There have been stupider things done in robotics than this (for anyone on my team reading this, LIKE PUTTING A BATTERY WITH FRAYED WIRES ON THE ROBOT) Personally, I think it looks like fun, and judging by the picture and what he said, I'd say at this time he wasn't some freshman riding the robot, but a senior or a graduate that knew the risks. He seems to recognize the robot's center of gravity quite well, so i for one applaud him on taking many of the nesacarry saftey measures.

15-06-2010 22:36

pacoliketaco

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

I think everyone here is focusing on the wrong thing. this is not built for safety, obviously. have you not ever ridden your robots? my favorite thing to do is strap a chair(2x4 or other kind of wooden plank) to the top of a robot, and drive it around the school. or have other people drive me around on it. can't you just let this kid have some fun? this was posted to show what some kid thought would be fun, and thus i would agree. i dont see why this is even an argument, other than just people saying how much fun this is to do. haha

16-06-2010 01:38

Chris is me

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

Overarching talk of safety annoys me as much as anyone, but when you're holding onto a robot with just your hands, gripping within a few inches of moving roller chain, I wouldn't compare that to a rigidly mounted chair driven by a carefully watched, responsible driver at low speeds.

16-06-2010 10:43

iblis432

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

Except we've already heard from the driver and he was responsible and at low speeds. In all honesty, all this video makes me think is next robotics meeting im strapping a chair to ours and im gonna have some fun.

16-06-2010 11:10

Alan Anderson

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

Do everyone a favor and strap a stylish bicycle helmet to the rider's head as well. You'll avoid two things: potential head trauma from accidental collisions or falls, and guaranteed nagging from safety zealots.

16-06-2010 15:28

iblis432

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

That goes without saying. I'm no more of a fan of my brains being plastered on the Shop wall than you are. I mean, think what the sponsors would think if they came to check on their sponsored team and brain guts are everywhere? Everyone wants to keep a clean shop.

16-06-2010 20:09

M.Wong

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

One of our mentors in the past used to joke with us saying "if you guys ever get three medals at one competition, you can put a seat on the robot."

16-06-2010 21:29

pacoliketaco

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

well i dont know for sure, but i think every team gets 25 participation medals...haha jk.

speaking for exposed chains...i know quite well the danger there, though i can say that i am always cautious when riding a robot if the drive chains are exposed. for the most part we always try to cover them. on the first day in atlanta last year i was fixing a chain and caught my finger in the running chain/sprocket. pretty lucky that it was only a #25 chain, but it was still pretty bad and i had to get a few stitches. thus since then i have been wayyy more careful with chains.

as for wearing a helmet, well i guess if you are planning on going really really fast or you dont trust your holds, thats probably a good idea. but i dont think that wearing one is really going to come to the mind of someone who is attempting to ride their robot..i think they'd be focused on other things.

22-06-2010 16:44

M.Wong

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

Haha I should have elaborated. He meant finals/winner+chairmens+EI. I wonder if that will ever happen...

22-06-2010 21:17

Tom Line

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

Let me ask a few very serious questions.

Is your few minutes of fun worth the school and team liability that would result if something were to happen? You're risking getting your team shutdown, thrown out of the school, or sued. Or perhaps the result could be permanently maiming someone. Can you, PERSONALLY, step up and say you'll pull out your wallet to pay for all the liability and the potential medical bills if something were to happen? The rise in insurance? Finding a new place for your team to meet?

This is as much about personal responsibility as it is about safety. Those who are blowing it off are showing a remarkable lack of both.

To the driver who posted: it's good to hear that you were thinking about safety. I don't think many of these posts are directed at you so much as the people who simply want to ignore the possible consequences all-together.

23-06-2010 09:09

iblis432

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

You risk sudden death each time you get into your car. You risk your house exploding each time you turn on the oven. You even risk your life when flushing the toilet. Too many things have negatives you can stare at for hours, but instead you should be looking at statistics. Cars for example, yes car crash constantly. But there are still more cars in the world then there are wrecked ones.

23-06-2010 16:01

Chris is me

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

So because everything else has risk means you should take stupid ones?

23-06-2010 16:58

JesseK

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

In this case, stupid is in the eye of the beholder.

I like going through class 5-6 rapids; most people would say that's a stupid risk, but I simply view it as an entirely different way of looking at life.

24-06-2010 01:17

EricH

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

It's only a stupid risk if you don't adequately prepare: helmet, life vest, make sure the boat doesn't have any holes, extra paddles, float plan, all that good stuff. In a car, wear your seat belt and drive defensively. These things mitigate the risk to manageable (i.e., if something does go wrong, it is not necessarily your fault).

Mitigating factors were not present in the photo--even a set of bolt-on handles would help, as they'd provide a more secure (and safe, most likely) grasping area, or a helmet for the case of a sudden stop without preparation.

When the Mythbusters do something with the "do NOT repeat NOT try this at home" message, you'll notice that they're always a) wearing protective gear or b) hunkering in a bunker or c) very, very far away or d) not being in the "line of fire" themselves or e) some combination of the preceding. This does not eliminate the risk that something goes horribly wrong. However, it reduces the damage when and if it does, and ensures that nobody gets hurt.

25-06-2010 22:21

jason701802

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

The life jacket and helmet are for if you fall out of the boat at some other time than the rapids, if you fall out during a class V or VI, a life jacket and helmet are not going to do much of anything

26-06-2010 01:40

Chris is me

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

Yes they will. The life jacket will ensure your head is above water if you're knocked unconscious, while the helmet can prevent fatal bunt force trauma allowing the vest to do its job.

26-06-2010 01:45

EricH

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

You missed the point entirely. The point was that if you're going to do something that a lot of people are going to regard as rather stupid, dumb, or ill-advised, then you really need to make sure that you have the proper equipment to have a chance at coming out alive and uninjured. In the case in the picture, there were risks of running into walls, getting fingers caught in chain, and getting snagged in and dragged by the robot, with no mitigating factors (helmet, handles, and that sort of thing) apparent.

(And, if you fall out during a class VI rapid, having a life jacket and helmet on a) provides some, though not much extra padding for impact and b) makes you and/or your body easier to spot and recover if a rescue operation is needed. Better than the next guy to fall out finding you a couple of years later when he lands where you did...)

29-10-2010 17:53

sithmonkey13

Re: pic: FRC Robots are the best mode of transportation!

What was it Darwin said? Something about survival of the fittest by nature killing the stupid ones? The point is, the person on the robot knows the risk, and was going to try it anyway. Safety is important, but sometimes you just have to try something. You could have the safest robot around, but just from everything on the robot, there still is a risk to doing anything. Those who don't understand the risk and ignore safety are the recipients of the Darwin awards, but those who do understand the risk take precautions. Anyway we just see the guy on the robot, not anything else. For all we know, the guy could be photoshopped on or have a paramedics standing by in case something does happen.