04-02-2013 09:21

PayneTrain

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

Only $10,000 dollars? I'm buying one for home use!

Seriously, that is awesome. I know 422 is just beginning a major tool upgrade; they just need to find a place to put one of these things.

05-02-2013 00:07

greisinb

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

Congratulations, we have a Tormach as well, it's a great machine! We cut everything on it!

05-02-2013 12:31

davepowers

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

It was about $9,000.00 for the machine itself, plus the add ons and shipping we've got about $13,000.00 into it. They did a good job making everything an optional upgrade. We can't really complain though, we've already learned a lot on it and cut some awesome parts! I'll defiantly we buying one for home use someday!

-D

05-02-2013 13:40

Jacoblint228

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

im soo excited that we have a new piece of machinery in the shop! its looking really good!

05-02-2013 14:11

Andy A.

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

Excellent!

I use the same mill at work every day. You've got a real honey of a machine there.

Tormach is an awesome company. If you haven't already, make sure to let them know how excited you are about the mill. They're very FIRST aware and would, I'm sure, love to know how their machines are helping students get into STEM fields.

05-02-2013 14:16

eedoga

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

My team needs to get better at fund raising...13K is our entire budget for the year...Thank goodness we have a material sponsor who can cut stuff out for us...Would be nice to do it "in house" though.

Edoga

05-02-2013 14:16

Mk.32

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

Out of curiosity what are you using to program the machine?

05-02-2013 15:18

davepowers

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

This machine is so simple and capable, Tormach really did an awesome job with it. We'll be sure to let them know what it's being used for!


We create all of our tool paths and other programs with Vectric Cut2D, which just allows you to convert .dxf to g-code, then Tormach has it's own software that came with the machine that reads the g-code. We will soon be upgrading to Cut3D. I highly recommend it over any other program i've used. After using it we're actually thinking about running the machines we have at work using this program.

-D

05-02-2013 15:21

davepowers

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

Looks for grants and search for donations, there's tons of free money out there, you just have to figure out where to look! You guys will get there, it just takes determination and dedication!

12-02-2013 01:47

ProgrammerMatt

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

Some things i have been making with it, i need to teach my team how to use it now including the mentors

12-02-2013 01:58

Mk.32

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

It appears you are running water for coolant.... and I see rust spots forming. You want to use actual coolant mixed with the water to prevent rust and it cuts better.

If you guys use Solidworks this may be worth checking out: http://www.hsmworks.com/hsmxpress/

The xpress edition is a free plug in for Solidworks, and lets you create 2.5D tool paths within solidworks (it adds another tab), it's quick and really easy for anyone to learn. It also has a Mach2 post built in that runs happy with the Tormach branded Mach3. Also I recently called them up and they gave us the full edition (which includes 3D Milling/4th axis/etc) for free on a educational license.

12-02-2013 12:29

ProgrammerMatt

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

We are using water based coolant, which was came with the machine. The vice itself was donated to the team by my father who had it sitting in my basement, we just haven't had time to polish it yet.

We'll defiantly give hsmworks a call and ask about the full edition, that would be awesome! Thanks for the lead!

-M

12-02-2013 14:17

Mk.32

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

Ah, that makes a bit more sense.
Just don't do anything to abrasive to clean the rust, I have been told using something abrasive can mess with the squareness of the vice.

You guys also plan on getting the tool changer/power draw bar?

12-02-2013 17:27

DonRotolo

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

Cut2D is for 2-dimensional (or 2.5D, such as flat pockets) cutting, such as plates and stuff. Cut3D is right for 3 dimensional cutting, where parts need a smooth transition between Z-axis levels.

Using Cut3D for 2D parts is not really the best use for it, and Cut2D cannot easily make smooth Z transitions or shapes (like a bowl)

Get proficient with Cut2D before you also buy Cut3D, but be sure to ask yourself if you are really cutting 3D parts.

12-02-2013 17:38

sanddrag

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

If you want a standalone CAM package, you may want to look into OneCNC XR5. We've been rather happy with it.

12-02-2013 18:01

ProgrammerMatt

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

yea, the power draw bar is next on our list then the tool changer,

12-12-2013 21:58

peronis

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I am currently in the process of trying to secure funds through our district for a CNC machine for aluminum cutting. I am deciding to get a Tormach 1100, or go with a Shopbot buddy alpha.

I like the large build area of the shopbot, and that it could be used for wood as well. I got a quote with shipping for the shopbot for just under 17000 with shipping. Seems like the Tormach with a lot of extras would run the same or less.

I would love any advice on what machine would be a better use of funds for regular FIRST specific uses?


Thank you so much

12-12-2013 22:00

Brian3512

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

That is such a good deal!! Congratz

12-12-2013 22:55

CENTURION

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

I haven't personally worked with either (working on getting a Tormach for our buildsite). But the Tormach 1100 is a very impressive machine, especially for how little it costs. It's got a lot of rigidity and power at it's disposal. I've been following a fella on youtube who uses his to make high-quality pocket knives. He mills titanium and exotic stainless steels no problem, and even hard milling. Not that those are things that you'll do in FRC much, but it speaks to the capability of the machine.

The only advantage I can see to the Shopbot would be the work area, but I think the PCNC 1100's work area is big enough to do just about any FRC part you can think of. The Shopbot might be a bit better for making some sheet metal parts, but I think having proper toolholders and the capabilities of a real mill are worth that tradeoff.

12-12-2013 23:22

peronis

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

Thank you for the advice... I am really up in the air for the choice. I have seen many youtubes and examples of the products the Tormach can produce, and definitely is made for metal.

I know there are some teams out there that have to have a shopbot. I haven't seen many pictures or videos of aluminum done with them.

I think we will be focusing on using the machines for hole patterns, brackets, gussets, gearboxes, on aluminum plate (proly not much thicker than 1/4"), angle, and tube stock.

Thank you

12-12-2013 23:52

Cory

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

Do you need to purchase a new machine? You can get a much better machine for the money if you can buy used.

13-12-2013 10:45

peronis

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

I don't necessarily need a new machine, however I believe it will be easier for the school to approve and buy one from a company. In addition, a new machine would include support and additional resources if problems arise.

Do you have any experience with either machine?

13-12-2013 12:10

Cory

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

I've used the Tormach. If I had $17,000 to spend I'd find a used machine over buying one, but I understand the difficulty of the proposition of used machinery for a school purchase.

It's an OK machine, considering what it is. It's not going to be the most rigid, precise/accurate, or fastest machine ever, because it's too small, light, and cheap to be all those things, but you should easily be able to produce reasonably good parts to within .005". I do know that Team 368 had some fairly large quality issues with their machine a few years ago, but I think Tormach resolved the issues for them.

13-12-2013 13:01

Bald & Bearded

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

So first I am jealous. That looks like a cool machine.

I also like the Vetric software - I use it with my Shopbot Handibot - It is simple and lets you quickly lay out most tool paths.

For the person looking to buy a machine, I saw the Buddy when I was down at Shopbots factory for training in Oct. It also looks like a great machine.
While I can't speak for the Buddy I do have a Handibot (Shopbots portable CNC machine) and the quality of their machines is top notch. I also really like that they are small, personable and so far have had great customer support. They let local FIRST teams come in and use there really big production machines.

13-12-2013 17:12

magnets

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

I have been with 2 teams in the past few years, and the tormach experience has been... interesting. The first team had nothing but success with their machine, with the machine being run hour after hour cutting gearbox plates, wheels, sprockets, pulleys, and everything else with little to no problems. The team I'm with now, isn't too excited about the tormach. We assembled a do it yourself cnc router, and we really love the thing. We use it for prototyping all the time, and it's easy enough to use that a freshman was able to make a shooter wheel to launch frisbees by herself. Then, to cut thick aluminum and steel, we got a tormach. To begin with, the new one seemed a little more flimsy than the old one. (they were both PCNC 1100) While none of the axes or tables were flimsy, the back of the machine and all the little guards and panels were all wobbly. After setting up and cutting the first part (block with many holes), we noticed that the part was only accurate to about 1/2", so something was slipping. I wasn't involved much over the summer with this team, but the end result was paying $3000 to have a technician come out, replace the table, the motor, and the ballscrew, because the motor would make noise, but the output shaft wouldn't spin. Because the motor is modified by tormach with a different shaft output, if the problem fails in the modified part, you can't fix it yourself. However, the other two axis the motor worked fine, but the shaft coupling slipped on a both.

I've never used a shopbot very much, but i've heard great things about them. Also, consider used equipment if possible.

13-12-2013 19:01

peronis

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

Thank you all so much for the feedback.

I noticed how you mentioned that you made sprockets, wheels, etc. with the tormach

I guess the question would be, can the shopbot do the same precision work, or has anyone made precision parts such as sprockets and gearbox parts on it?

13-12-2013 20:04

sanddrag

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

You can get a used Fadal for about $17k, but, you don't want to buy a $17k can of worms. You'd really have to have someone who knows machinery check it out. Also, as a note, I have no personal experience with Fadal, but I'd like to think it's a heck of a lot more machine than a Tormach. That said, I'd read of tons of people who absolutely love their Tormach and make some impressive pieces on them, and I'm considering a Tormach lathe if they ever finish it and release it for sale.

I know it may be out of your budget, but originally, I was looking at a Tormach, and ended up going with a HAAS, and I cannot even begin to describe how big of a difference it is, and how glad I am that we upped the budget for a HAAS. See if you can sell the school district on safety. The HAAS is enclosed and has safety interlocks and is "industry standard equipment."

13-12-2013 20:52

DampRobot

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

I've used both, and can say with no hesitations that the HAAS is a beautiful machine and a joy to work with. It's very rigid, safe, strong, fast, well made, great control software, etc, etc, etc. With flood coolant, ATC, and a rienshaw, I'd call it my dream mill.

Whenever I've used it, I did find the Tormach more than adequate for most FRC uses. It's a good price, and cuts well. On the other hand, you can really see that it was made more for the garage machine shop (where build quality isn't quite as important) than for the industrial R&D and production runs the HAASes are made for.

Either way, make sure to get flood coolant. The only reason why I might want to use the Tormach over my team's HAAS is the flood coolant (our teacher had it uninstalled from the HAAS). It really improves cutting, and let's you crank through aluminum and even steel at very nice speeds. It can be very important if you want to go into "production mode" with a run of parts.

13-12-2013 21:15

Alan Ing

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

Hi All, I'm an engineering mentor with Team 368 (We sat out last year but are back for 2014!). I thought I'd just make some comments regarding the Tormach.

I’m pretty much in agreement with what Cory said about the Tormach. It is not in the same class as a production machine and does not have the mass, rigidity, or power to be compared with machines from Haas, Hurco, Sharp and the numerous other industrial machines. It is however, a great little machine that may fill the needs of many FRC teams who are just getting started in cnc milling.

We bought our Tormach back in 2006 without any real knowledge about how to use it and have been relying on it more and more as the years go by. Accuracy is pretty good, we are usually within .001” and with some care you can get press fits for bearings. I would call the Tormach a proconsumer machine. It’s neither a cheap hobbyist mill nor an industrial machine. It has travels of 18” x 9.5” x 16.25” (xyz) which is not very large but large enough to do many parts that an FRC robot might need. One of the typical things we do is make 25 and 35 pitch sprockets with it. Although the travels are limited, with some creativeness, you can make larger parts by indexing. We cut a 240 tooth 25 pitch sprocket to make a turret that a lunacy ball could pass through back in 2009. There are many accessories including a power draw bar (more like a pneumatic collet closer) and a toolchanger which make it a mini milling center. It is not perfect, but has enabled us to make some pretty cool stuff.

Some things to consider, we have had excellent support from Tormach. As Cory mentioned, we had a quality issue with our mill, but after some discussions and troubleshooting, Tormach made everything right for us and we are happy with its resolution. I believe our problem was just dumb luck and would not hesitate to purchase another mill from them. If you need to know the specifics, you can pm me.

A used industrial cnc machine is a great way to go and you can get some good deals on machines. The only problem is that you should have someone who really know what they are doing prior to pulling the trigger. It is not as simple as plugging in a hobbyist rapid prototyping machine and you may need someone who can troubleshoot, operate, and maintain the machine.

When you buy a used machine, often you are on your own. The Tormach is well documented, has a lot of support and you can get started fairly easy.

Our team is now at the point where we could really take advantage of a larger more powerful machine, but we are constrained by money and space.

Oh, by the way, we use MasterCam, they have a great educational discount, but Tormach also sells affordable cam products too.

13-12-2013 21:28

sanddrag

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

Hi Alan,
I'm sure you've told me before, but where are you getting your sprocket tooth profiles from? The models we used last season did not fit the chain accurately.

13-12-2013 22:36

R.C.

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

We use the mastercam sprocket generator. And then compensate tooth profile using wear comp, its normally not much. We've also haven't had an issue with the solidworks generator.

-RC

13-12-2013 22:52

peronis

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

From what i'm hearing the shopbot might not be robust enough to precision machine aluminum.

It seems to be more geared for wood, but the company says it can handle aluminum fine. It would provide more flexibility as it will go in our schools woodshop where the other teachers could utilize it. I might commit to the shopbot buddy alpha if it can handle cutting and machining aluminum for our own custom parts. It would have a duel use, and the school likes to reach as many students as possible. I have seen a couple of videos of it cutting aluminum, but nothing as robust as I've seen with the tormach, which is why I am a little hesitant.

I would love to get a HAAS, but my school won't commit those resources, nor get a used one.

In all my primary goal though is to get students to see the product development cycle, and learn about the CNC process. Also, have students make some awesome parts.

13-12-2013 22:54

Akash Rastogi

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

/can't delete. Misread previous post.

15-12-2013 15:36

Alan Ing

Re: pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

Hi Dave, as RC mentioned, we also generate our sprocket details in MasterCam. MasterCam has a bunch of user applications (.dll) called chooks that you can use to make sprockets, gears, and other things that I don't know much about. The sprocket profile generated is ANSI standard but is only a 2D profile. Because we have to use a 1/8" endmill to cut 25 tooth spockets, we either have to make several 0.000 clearance passes or one really slow clearance pass. The endmill flexes too much and it makes a difference in fitting the chain.

RC, really? There is a sprocket generator for Solidworks? My biggest complaint is that I have never found one. Where is it located, or is there some sort of add in? We would love to be able to generate sprockets in Solidworks. I know that Inventor has something.

Alan