01-05-2013 16:24

ehfeinberg

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

Interesting concept, stacking pipes around a pole. However, I would think that the pipes should be obtained from the human player similar to how robots got tetras in 2005. I say this because it seems extremely difficult to pick up a slick PVC pipe from the ground, especially if it might just roll away. It seems that if you don't let teams get pipes from human players, rookie teams might have an exceedingly difficult time.

But looks like a lot of fun, and I would gladly have this be the game for 2015.

01-05-2013 16:29

AllenGregoryIV

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

We thought about that but wanted to make the challenge harder (it is fake game after all). So many times the human player rules just get in the way. Also how do you easily hand over a pipe to a robot safely? The tetras required a crazy system that disabled your robot when you stepped off a mat, if we never have a system like that again in FRC I will be a happy man. The 2007 system, through the driver station window or over the top, doesn't seem that much better. We also wanted the field easy to prototype for. If we built some kind of ramp for introducing them like this year it would be one more field element teams would need to build.

01-05-2013 16:41

ablatner

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

Looks interesting. I'd get rid of the Kinect and change hybrid to autonomous though. The Kinect and hybrid was pretty useless in 2012.

Also, what's the point of different height scoring poles? It looks like scoring on the 10' ones is worth the same as the shorter ones.

01-05-2013 16:45

AllenGregoryIV

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

It wasn't useful in 2012 because that game didn't require movement in auton and you started with most of the game pieces that you were going to have in auton. You also had very limited time and only one per alliance. We think with a game that encourages more movement in hybrid we could see teams take advantage of the alternative interface to the robot.

They are worth the same. The idea is that the more scoring pieces that are scored the harder it is to score them. That means that instead of what happened in 2011 teams are encouraged to score higher at the end of the game not the beginning (similar to 2005). Teams can decide to score only on the lower poles but eventually they might all be full so having a robot that can go to the high poles on your alliance may be useful.

01-05-2013 17:08

Lil' Lavery

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

Simple solution. Cut 4" diameter holes in the driver station walls. Have human players feed them through those holes. Probably dedicate specific locations (corners?) for the task, and potentially have a protected loading zone.

It doesn't really make the challenge too much easier, either, as the orientation of the pipes coming through the wall is different from the orientation the pipes must be scored in.

01-05-2013 17:12

AllenGregoryIV

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

How many teams got pieces from the 2011 human players? (1503 and who else?). We also don't like protected zones that cause ticky tack fouls.

01-05-2013 18:24

Kevin Sevcik

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

So what you're saying is you're planning a takeover of the GDC to ensure a future of more interesting and challenging FRC games without ticky tack fouls...

01-05-2013 18:58

AllenGregoryIV

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

We tried to stay true to a real FRC game but sometimes we just had to get
rid of a few of the more annoying things.

01-05-2013 21:07

cmrnpizzo14

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

I did not read too carefully but I like that you chose to allow teams to possess as many pipes as they design for. I prefer that to games where teams are limited to 1, 3, 4 etc.

01-05-2013 21:29

Kevin Sevcik

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

Best brickbot hybrid/first 5s strategy: Drive forward and shove all your opponent's pipes into the corner.

01-05-2013 23:08

AllenGregoryIV

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

We had a lot of debate about this. We wanted a mass quantity game like 09 and a single object game like 2011. We almost limited the number of large pipes but thought better of it. If you can design for it why should the game penalize you?

That's why the pipes start on both sides of the field and some in the middle.

01-05-2013 23:36

Kevin Sevcik

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

Horrible game design idea just popped into my head. I have to commend you for eschewing the "top scoring piece owns a goal, now make some combos" bonus system in this game. The less we remind the GDC of that style of bonus, the better.

01-05-2013 23:49

AllenGregoryIV

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

The only one worse that we came up with was a bonus for the most length of pipe on a scoring peg. That would be disastrous for spectators.

I like this system because visually you should be able to get an idea of who is winning without real time scoring. Look at the field, are there more red or blue pipes scored? You won't know exactly but you can get a general idea if the match is close or not.

02-05-2013 09:50

Lil' Lavery

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

How many teams got pieces from the 2013 human players? Why is 2011 the go to example? FRC teams has plenty of examples of how to pick up tubes from the 1997 and 2007 games. Throw them a game object they've never seen before, and they're far more likely to load from a human player than anywhere else (see 1997, 2005, 2013). Especially if they can't be lobbed across the field by the human player like they were in 2011.

Also, off the top of my head, 1218 also loaded from the human player in 2011.


And I'd rather have "ticky tack" fouls than make it borderline impossible for 30th percentile teams to load successfully.

Or just knock them all over and laugh as 50% of teams can no longer pick them up and re-orient them to score successfully.

02-05-2013 10:50

JohnSchneider

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

This is great Allen! I'm sure well get to use it as a fall training tool for our newer kids. Thank you for providing such an interesting resource.

I hope I get to see a robot who can play this game at TRR. I mean there's at least 6 weeks before then

02-05-2013 11:38

2789_B_Garcia

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

Maybe I missed it on the blog or in the rules...but when is the actual competition?

02-05-2013 11:46

AllenGregoryIV

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

There isn't an actual competition. This is just an experiment. We use it to work on design iterations and brainstorming. We did it last year but kept the game private, this year we decided to release it.

02-05-2013 12:11

Kevin Sevcik

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

Can't tell if serious, or seriously FRC addicted...

Also, you forgot to ask when the Q&A Forum will be open. I mean, it's been two whole days since the game release and there's no Q&A Forum? I'm starting to reconsider Spectrum as a viable GDC substitute.

02-05-2013 12:28

AllenGregoryIV

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

The Q&A is basically this thread. Also there has already been rule update and we didn't even make people wait until Tuesday after kickoff. Though we didn't announce it very well.

02-05-2013 12:40

JohnSchneider

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

What if I have a specific robot design question? Will you comment on individual designs?

02-05-2013 14:02

Kevin Sevcik

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

I'm betting they will, but the chances for snark and sarcasm are a lot higher than with the GDC.

02-05-2013 14:59

2789_B_Garcia

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

Dude...bro...is there any question?

Honestly, my kids saw it, and they're the ones bugging me about it...apparently the full court shooter/30 pt climb + 20 pt dump/floor pickup/bridge balancing/minibot mechanisms they want to work on for TRR isn't enough to keep them busy lol

02-05-2013 16:34

Kevin Sevcik

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

We're having a season wrap party tomorrow night for mentors and students. I'm planning on bringing some printouts and asking everyone if they've read the rules yet.

02-05-2013 20:52

smistthegreat

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

First of all, I want to thank you for producing such a polished game and manual and especially for making it public. One quick question, why change the motor rules from Ultimate Ascent? I thought the 2013 motor rules were very heavy on high-power motors, but these rules are even heavier (6 CIM, 4 banebots, 4 BAG, and 4 Mini CIM!?). Not really a problem, just something that caught my eye and I would like to hear the reason behind this.

Also, according to the manual, Ultimate Ascent R03 would still apply, limiting robots to 84 inches tall at all times. Is this a mistake? Unless I'm completely missing something, how are 84 inch robots supposed to score on 10 foot poles?

02-05-2013 23:46

AllenGregoryIV

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

Motor rules were another one of those things that just sort of annoyed our team. We never really understood why miniCIMS and BAG motors were put in the same category when they have such different power ratings. I assume it's actually a sponsorship/money thing with FIRST but I don't know that. The same reason why the BB are all lumped together even though a BB395 and BB775 are extremely different. We left the BB rule since we have had it for so long.

You are correct R03 was supposed to be edited to only regulate the 112in frame perimeter. It's interesting that the expansion rules are redundant in the UA manual both as game rules and as robot rules.

03-05-2013 00:18

smistthegreat

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

Is there no maximum height limit then? I looked through the rules and couldn't find anything else limiting it, but it's never safe to assume.

03-05-2013 00:35

AllenGregoryIV

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

Yes that was the intent. Similar to 2011 and 2005 if you can reach higher go for it.

08-05-2013 22:55

Adamz_

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

as a rookie team, i say challenge accepted

09-05-2013 12:44

ehfeinberg

Re: pic: 2013.5 Mock Game Pipefall

See you in 6 weeks, good luck...