04-26-2015 10:49 PM

Chris_Elston

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

We used this SAME setup on our robot "Team THRUST 1501". The net savings in weight is about 0.3 lbs per using the Norgren Regulator. We tested it in our practice robot for 8 weeks with no issues.

04-26-2015 11:20 PM

Thad House

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

Anybody know where we can find the pressure ratings? I'm sure they are legal, but inspectors like the see that kind of stuff, and I can't find it on their website. But these do look really awesome. Especially with those U fittings they sell, we could make a much lighter and smaller setup.

04-26-2015 11:27 PM

orangemoore

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

This is the spec sheet from the automation direct website.

http://www.automationdirect.com/stat...linegauges.pdf

04-26-2015 11:35 PM

Mark Sheridan

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

I have used these too, they are fantastic. Very happy they are a bit orange to o.

04-26-2015 11:36 PM

Thad House

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

I saw that, but for me as an inspector the gauge would pass probably, because it says 170, but the regulator might not, because it only says 120. I'm sure we could get actual maximum pressure specs from them, but that sheet wouldn't be enough.

04-26-2015 11:38 PM

Jeff Pahl

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

And the spec sheet only says that it regulates from 15-120 PSI. Based on that, it does not meet the 125 PSI requirement in the 2015 rules. I know it passed inspection this year, but that does not mean it should have...

Looks like a fantastic part, and the sort of thing I hope we see more of (if it's legal). My advice would be to file it away for future reference, and wait to see if it's determined to be legal in the future. I hope it is, I want to use it on my robot.

Insert standard disclaimer here about all previous year's rules not applying in all future years

04-26-2015 11:39 PM

cgmv123

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

It's that time of year again!

04-26-2015 11:50 PM

Thad House

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

I think I'm going to send an email to them, and ask them to add the maximum pressure rating to the spec sheet. I'm sure its higher then 120psi, since it can regulate down to that. There's a similar one on McMaster that should work, and it says 150 maximum, so it would be legal. 8844K11

04-27-2015 12:13 AM

EricH

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

I assume that this is a relieving regulator, is that correct? If it isn't, I'm going to have to concur on the "maybe shouldn't have passed inspection" crowd. If it is, I think I'll pass the info on to my team...

04-27-2015 12:14 AM

Jeff Pahl

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

I'm going to be emailing Rick Folea on Monday to ask him that. It just so happens that it's a small world, and a long time ago in another place and time we used to work together

04-27-2015 12:19 AM

orangemoore

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

Does this even pass rule 66 G?

04-27-2015 01:27 AM

TheHolyHades1

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

Is it worth using these type of fittings when the brass fittings do a good job in serving as a heatsink for the compressors?

04-27-2015 01:37 AM

BBray_T1296

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

The KOP regulators have the capability of regulating higher pressure than 60PSI if you set them to.

04-27-2015 01:40 AM

Dunngeon

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

It's not that they serve as a heat sink for the compressor, but that they dissipate heat before it melts the tubing. In any case, weightloss anywhere on the robot is very good, and you won't melt tubing on a competition bot because of the short run times

So yes, if both components are legal then it's worth it to us (and many others)

04-27-2015 02:13 AM

EricH

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

Just as a note: If I'm not mistaken, these would be located well downstream from the compressor, say on the other side of the storage tanks. This isn't the pressure relief valve, it's a regulator. The PRV has a specific part number, and must be hard-mounted.

04-27-2015 02:19 AM

TheHolyHades1

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

Ah. I figured I missed something. Thanks!

04-27-2015 08:45 AM

tr6scott

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

No.

Some manufactures offer optional outlet pressure ranges, but I do not see that on this cut sheet.

Should not have passed with >60 outlet pressure.
IMHO, not an inspector.

04-27-2015 09:35 AM

rfolea

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

Hi Guys,

The max pressure rating for this device is 145 psi.
This is sold under the NITRA label so I can't share the original manufacturers data sheet with you.
I'll put in a request to get the NITRA spec sheet updated.

Comments on posts:

(Jeff Pahl - Been Long time! How ya doing!)

#7: "And the spec sheet only says that it regulates from 15-120 PSI." It regulates between those values - the max rating is 145.

#12: R66G - This really only applies to the primary regulator which HAS to be the KOP regulator (and is limited to 5-50psi). These should only be used DOWNSTREAM of that. Just like all the other regulators we typically use. Yes, I know the rules don't explicitly say that - we are talking to FIRST about the wording of that rule because it doesn't make any sense as stated...

#13 "Is it worth using these type of fittings ..." Oh yeah ... Space savings, weight savings, mount them anywhere, totally worth it. And again - these would not be used as the primary regulator right up next to the compressor.

This IS a PRV type regulator (relieves excess downstream pressure)

And while we are at it ...

The original post only shows two of the parts offered as inline. There are a bunch more folks need to be aware of:

Pressure Indicators: (PMU14A, PMU14G) Green and Orange - Has a little pop-up indicator that pops up when the system has 30+ psi in it. An awesome way to tell if the system is pressurized at a glance

Shut Off Valves - 2 and 3-way shut off valves - the 3-way valves relieve downstream pressure so you can shut off a subsystem and release pressure at the same time. Very handy. (HVU14-2, HVU14-3)

These are also available in lockable versions.

Quick Exhaust Valves - Want to speed up you pneumatics? This is a great way to do it. Routes exhaust air directly to atmosphere.


And of course, AutomationDirect has:
- FREE shipping on orders over $49.
- FAST Shipping - all items are in stock and ship same day via FedEx. Usually takes no more than 2 days. Fast shipping includes CANADA!
- $30 Coupon - was in your kit of parts to use on anything you want - I hope you used it!


Let us know if you have any questions about AutomationDirect Parts. Beast way to reach us: educational@automationdirect.com.

Either Chip McDaniel or myself (Rick Folea) will be happy to help you out.

04-27-2015 09:53 AM

rfolea

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

... Should have mentioned that all of these items are located here.

04-27-2015 10:17 AM

Kevin Sevcik

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

These don't pass R66, unless we ignore the parenthetical "(specifically "needle valves")". I wanted to use some last year and was shot down by the GDC:R77(F) is largely identical to this year's R66(F) except for this year's addition of "passive" and the parenthetical. So unless the GDC's interpretation has greatly changed, quick exhaust valves were illegal this year.

Mind you, I'd love if they were legal for the obvious speed increases. So if you're petitioning the GDC to update the regulator part of R66, you might want to add that as well.

04-27-2015 10:37 AM

Conor Ryan

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

I'm not so familiar with quick exhaust valves, why would they be ruled unsafe?

04-27-2015 12:14 PM

Oblarg

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

A good question that has never been adequately answered, especially given the fact that it's legal to just not put a fitting in one end of a dual-stroke cylinder and vent directly to atmosphere that way.

04-27-2015 02:59 PM

rfolea

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

Some folks disallow quick exhaust valves because they are technically "Check Valves" (Only let air pass in one direction, other direction is vented) and anything that can keep a system pressurized (like a check valve) after the air has been vented to the atmosphere is illegal, since we don't want ANYTHING left pressurized when the system has been opened up, for obvious safety reasons.

The problem with this argument is the QUICK exhaust valves actually make the system SAFER in that they GUARANTEE the system won't be pressurized.

Yes, we are working on the wording of that one too ... Sometimes common sense HAS to win ...

BTW - all the solenoid valves folks use that have a center closed position are ALSO illegal under this rule (they can keep a system pressurized after venting), but no one seems to notice that ...

04-27-2015 03:37 PM

Kevin Sevcik

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

Closed center solenoid valves would actually probably fall under R78(A):Whether they're legal or not depends on if you think the air inside them constitutes "stored" pressure, "working" pressure, stored pressure, or some other kind of pressure. The pneumatic rules use several different terms when talking about pressure on the robot, so I don't think it's clear if they want the the entire system at ~0 psig with the vent open, or if they just want the tanks at ~0 psig.

In other news, the pneumatics rules are kind of arcane and vague and could really use some revising to better clarify and enforce whatever the GDC's intent behind them is. There's some hint of an intent to limit actuator speeds and unintentional overpressure from external loads on cylinders, but it'd be better if they spelled that out up front.

04-27-2015 04:13 PM

The Lucas

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

FRC rules are not necessarily implying that they are unsafe. R66 is a prescriptive rule listing the only pneumatic components which are legal. If it doesn't fit in one of those categories then it is illegal. Check valves are also illegal according to the Q&A. My speculation is that FRC wants limit the types of valves to solenoid valves (ultimately controlled by the on the RIO firmware), relief valves (prevent over pressure on compressor) and pressure vent plug valves (each has to be capable of venting all pressure on their own, not in combination with other valves like quick exhaust valves) so that it is easy for inspectors to verify that the system is safe & under control. Probably the most time consuming part of the inspection process is verifying pneumatic operation (especially testing the setting of the relief valve) and verifying the operation and orientation of quick exhaust valves or check valves would only add to the time and complexity of inspection.

The primary regulator doesn't have to be the KOP Norgren one, the blue box under R71 recommends 2 different part numbers, but those are not the only ones that can be legally used. The Monnier data sheet has output data for over 60 PSI but it must be adjusted to no greater than 60 PSI on a robot.

R66B requires pressure plug vent valves be functionally equivalent to the (2-way) KOP valves, so I am not sure 3-way valves would be meet that requirement (probably should ask next years Q&A, or try to get the rule changed for next year). I agree they would be useful (especially this year for removing cylinders to fit into transport configuration).

04-27-2015 06:01 PM

GeeTwo

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

It depends entirely on how much air you need. If you're using air solely to shift gears, probably not. If every function other than drive is pneumatic, quite possibly. We blew out several hoses (with a crack like a .22) during practice for rebound rumble. We had a pneumatic climber, but we didn't even have the climber attached yet. We were just making adjustments to the Frisbee primer that required depressurizing the system. In filling up our (seven?) plastic tanks, we blew out the hose at the end nearest the compressor. The large quantity of air depressurizing through the rupture cooled the tubing back down, so it took us several swaps to figure out that it wasn't just defective tubing. This was followed by closer monitoring to figure out the actual cause. Our solution was to relocate as much of the brass as possible to before the first piece of tubing, and continued monitoring for swollen tubing.

04-27-2015 11:17 PM

Dunngeon

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

Emphasis mine. I said Competition Bot. We use a different compressor that is rated for 100% duty on the practice bot, but use the VIAIR 90C on the competition bot for the obvious weight savings. Nearly our entire bot was pneumatic, and the 90C was capable to compressing for nearly 20 minutes straight before we ever had a blow out. (not that I recommend it)

On the practice bot, we use either a Thomas 215 or another who's name escapes me.

Also, if your tubing was blowing out from only filling 7 (assuming black Clippard?) tanks you may want to re-evaluate both the fittings and tubing you are using. I know in our case, we have melted the O-rings within the 1/4 pneumatic quick connects (but this is after 30+ minutes of running and the crappy FIRST Choice connectors)

Or add a fan.

We use Freelin-Wade tubing, and SMC pneumatic fittings.

04-27-2015 11:38 PM

ToddF

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

Mounting a KOP computer cooling fan blowing on the compressor head allows the small compressor to be run at 100 percent duty cycle. We have done all day demos with our 2014 bot, with pneumatic catapult, and the compressor barely gets warm. This year our air consumption is less, so we left off the fan. Just filling two tanks gets it scalding hot.

04-30-2015 08:21 PM

GeeTwo

Re: pic: In-Line Pneumatic Fittings

We made the corrections during practice and did not have the problem during competition. For UA, our understanding (probably incorrect, as I recently learned from another thread) was that relieving the air pressure between matches was mandatory. As a result, we stressed the system more during competition than we did during pre-climb practices when we were actuating a single 3/4" diameter cylinder with about a 6" stroke.