10-07-2015 14:00

Anupam Goli

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Interesting map. I wonder if in a couple of years some of the southern states will start to create a mega-size district or not.

Also, I think a regional in Alabama has been announced.

10-07-2015 14:07

mwmac

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Jury is still out on Idaho....

10-07-2015 14:30

logank013

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

That really stinks for some teams in the north central america or Alaskan teams. They have to travel far for competitions. We got spoiled with districts.

10-07-2015 15:09

Monochron

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

There was hope of getting an NC-SC-GA district going for 2016 but apparently that fell through. GA decided to go district alone apparently and NC had already committed. I don't know the story of how the decisions were made but it's cool to think of what could have been.

10-07-2015 15:12

Monochron

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Also, just some constructive criticism: this might be easier to read if you put all the states with regionals as one hue with varying brightness's. Such as pale red, red, dark red, etc. States with both distrcts and regionals could be a mix of your regional color and your district color. It's just a little hard to get a feel for the distribution of data if each category is equally unique when the categories themselves are not.

10-07-2015 15:36

MikLast

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Why isint Idaho a part of the PNW district? Would add a few teams to Events in eastern washington and help grow some teams in eastern Oregon (if a event was put in Boise) where there are not many teams (due to how far the events are for them.)

10-07-2015 16:14

Navid Shafa

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

This has been a debate for quite some time. From a geographic and financial standpoint, it would be difficult to transition all of the 20 teams in Idaho into the district at the beginning. Some of the Northern teams pushed pretty hard last year to have the ability to opt into PNW for the 2015 season and it nearly happened. Many expected it might come to fruition this year.

Even with a potential event in Boise though, the Northern Idaho teams would likely have to stay overnight at both of their district events. Had the District Championship stayed in Spokane, it might have been more viable for them. With the DCMP being held in Portland, some of those teams would have a 6-8 hour drive...

Southern Idaho would have the luxury of a home district (assuming a Boise event), but would have to travel significantly to go to either the West Valley event or one of the Oregon districts. There just aren't enough Eastern Oregon teams yet to justify a far East event.

Now you'd be asking said teams to potentially stay overnight at 3 events (2 at best), and you create significant travel costs for those teams. All of this before potentially traveling to Worlds.

Eventually PNW might have the capacity and the density in the outer region to hold events and fill the spots at them further East, but they have had enough trouble with West Valley as is and Boise would be no different. It's important to maintain similar size events and that is one thing that PNW has had to juggle pretty carefully, but has done well so far. With a region expanded that much further, PNW would struggle to find a centralized location for a DCMP, it's already been an issue that the region hasn't been able to solve the past few years.

While everyone wants there to be inclusiveness, there are so many dynamic variables when thinking about holding events, how many events to run, how to geographically place them based on density, how to maintain (roughly) equal team capacities...

I definitely would like to see our Idaho friends again, but I'm not convinced the current outcomes would be that much better than the predicament they face right now. In the mean time though, their situation isn't very great and it's only going to get worse as district borders tighten up around them

10-07-2015 16:25

MikLast

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Eastern Washington and (especially) Oregon teams already do this?

Besides that, That does make sense. Hopefully northern Idaho can join, give them (less) of a hassle to go to events.

10-07-2015 16:36

Navid Shafa

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

To some extent, yes. Eastern Washington teams have a home district in Spokane, which allows many of them to avoid travel and lodging for at least one district event. Last year with the DCMP in Spokane as well, many of those teams only had to travel once.

You're correct though, Southern Idaho would face just a slightly worse scenario as the Eastern Oregon teams have already been dealing with.

Agreed. I really do think it should be an Opt-in though. The entire state may not be ready for an annexing into the district, at least until more accommodations can be arranged for those teams. For the meantime, many of those teams get by with a single regional event. That may be all the time and money they can invest into the program at this point, until better options are available.

I just wish USFIRST would allow the state, the district, and those individual teams the ability to make that choice and figure out what works best on a case-by-case basis.

10-07-2015 16:43

MikLast

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

While this would be the best idea, i can see why they would not want that on a full scale, 2500+ teams that would go through that process may be a nightmare for them. Maybe if they had it in concentrated areas (Northern Idaho, Pennsylvania, Teams near the border of other district area, etc.) to keep the opt-in/out may be a better idea.

10-07-2015 17:05

wilsonmw04

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

What this map shows is that making district boarders based on states isn't going to work much longer. We are going to need to look at forming districts based on common sense and ease of travel. For example, many teams outside of Metro DC would do better in the NC, WV, or TN area group than being attached to DC.

10-07-2015 17:07

Navid Shafa

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

All teams register through FIRST's online system already. I can't imagine it would be too difficult to give certain sub-regions the privileges needed to register for events in a specific district.

10-07-2015 17:18

JB987

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Not sure why Nevada and other similar stated are classified as a district/ regional states?

10-07-2015 17:19

Hallry

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

I think you're confusing purple and pink (I did the same thing at first). The only state that's purple (with Districts and a Regional) is Pennsylvania.

10-07-2015 17:20

TDav540

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

I also remember hearing this. I think it's called the Rocket City Regional. Should be in Huntsville for the coming year.

10-07-2015 21:22

Brian Maher

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

The map provides an interesting perspective. I edited the map a little, giving it a more logical color scheme and updating Alabama to reflect the Rocket City Regional. Thank you, Microsoft Paint, for making this possible.

10-07-2015 23:32

JB987

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Ah ha! I can discriminate the color difference now that I see the map on my computer instead of my phone, and actually read the legend carefully

11-07-2015 00:18

InFlight

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

I'd like PNW to find a way to get Idaho as a whole included. Driving distance and hotels costs are an issue. But missed school days are another factor as well. Slightly smaller district events with Friday Load-in and long Saturday / Short Sunday might be a better balance. Seems like the Tri-Cities might be an option as well, reasonable drive for most East of the Cascade Teams, and plenty of Hotel options.

11-07-2015 01:07

logank013

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

I'm not sure how teams like the big districts but the small district in Indiana was great because no team ever had to travel real far. We stayed overnight at 2 of 3 event but, there were some teams that traveled greater distances and didn't stay overnight. In the small district like Indiana's, it creates an even lower cost for teams. Plus, every team pretty much knew each other after each event due to only 49 teams in Indiana. I'm not sure how teams like the big districts like NE District but the IN District is great.

11-07-2015 12:55

Mr V

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Actually Alaska needs to go to a blue state because team #568 will be part of the PNW District for the 2016 season! Yeah!! Idaho needs to go pink becuase they are planning to have a regional in Bosie in 2016.

See above. Great for the S. ID teams but because of fears that it won't have enough attendees N. ID teams are not going to be able to be part of the PNW district.

Well it means that they will still have some serious travel but the team in AK will be participating in the PNW district! The travel will be shorter and the plan, which still needs the details worked out, is for their robot to stay in WA between their events and DCMP and CMP if they qualify to advance to those levels.

11-07-2015 13:24

logank013

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Is there only 1 alaskan team? Just Curious

11-07-2015 14:14

Mr V

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Yes for the 2015 season there was only one FRC team in Alaska. I think there were more in the past, and maybe being a part of the PNW district will encourage future growth.

11-07-2015 14:25

AGPapa

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

So would any future teams in Alaska have to join the PNW district? Doesn't that seem like a completely terrible idea? What schools would want to pay the costs for two trips to Washington/Oregon in a new program?

It is more than a three hour flight from Anchorage to Seattle!

11-07-2015 14:44

Mr V

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

I do not know for certain. FIRST certainly prefers to draw District lines by states and does not allow teams to opt in to a District. So my guess would be that yes they would be required to be a part of the PNW district.

There are lots of flights between AK and Seattle so their prices tend to be lower. My quick search showed that a flight to Seattle from Anchorage was less than half of the cost of a flight to Los Angeles. Of course there is the cost of accommodations which can vary significantly. Many of our district event locations were chosen because they are in areas that have lower hotel rates than our bigger city areas.

So it might be possible to travel to the Seattle area for 2 district events for a similar price as traveling to one Regional in another area. Yes there is definitely going to be more travel time and time away from school/work but that is balanced by aprox 3 times the number of matches.

11-07-2015 15:02

logank013

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

The good thing however is if enough teams come in Alaska, then an event could be in Alaska. The Alaskan team already has to travel for Regionals and, you are more likely to get to worlds through a district. Plus, the closest U.S. States to Alaska are apart of the PNW district. The only thing that would make slightly more sense for them would be to go to Canadian Regionals but, then each team member would need a passport and go through all the crazy things that are needed to go across country borders.

11-07-2015 15:12

EricH

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Just for the record: SD should be green (2 teams, attending Colorado). That was last season's count anyway.

11-07-2015 15:50

Caleb Sykes

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Can you explain in greater detail what you mean by this?

11-07-2015 16:00

EricH

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Think about it this way:

Each regional sends 6 teams to the Championship.
Each district sends some number of teams X, where X/(championship capacity)=(district's teams)/(FRC teams as a whole).

If X > 6, the district sends more teams than a regional. Now, some areas have more than one regional. If X > 12... or X > 18...

If the number of teams in a given area remains the same, but more teams can go to the Championship, then there is a higher chance that any given team can go to the championship in any given year. And, you don't have to WIN events to go to the Championship: 3 finalist appearances (one at DCMP) ought to do the trick quite nicely, or 2 finalist and 1 elims, or 3 elims appearances and a few awards. Going under a regional system requires winning or being on the finalist alliance when somebody double-qualifies.

11-07-2015 16:05

logank013

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Yes. At a regional, you only get to worlds by winning the event, Chairman's, Engineering Inspiration, or Rookie all star. In reality, the only 2 robots that truly good is the captain and first pick of the winning alliance. The other 4 ways to get to worlds doesn't require a truly good robot.

Now in IN District, those same 6 spots are true. Plus, the next 4 robots in district points get to go to worlds. Most of the district points are awarded by being a good robot at events. So then, you have 6 good robots that get in plus, the 4 robots that don't necessarily have to be good to get in to worlds. IN District is really small. bigger district that have more than 10 spots have more robots to award worlds qualifications. In many other districts, it's those same 4 spots that don't necessarily require your robot to be good, plus however many spots they have left to award to good robots via the district point system. so if your district has 20 spot, then it will be those really good 16 robots, plus the 4 other robots that could be good. This year, we had 14 teams get into worlds from Indiana. 3 from the wait list, 1 being a sustained original team, and the other 10 were the ones I just described above. I felt like out of those 14 teams, 10 of those teams were truly the best 10 teams in Indiana.

So in conclusion, if you have a good robot, you are basically guaranteed a spot to worlds. Some really good robots don't get in due to bad luck and never winning or getting an award. So basically what I am saying is that the district point system is a very accurate representation of good robots for the whole season vs. having good luck during 1 week and getting in.

I hope what I said Clarified what you needed. Sorry for the insanely long post...

11-07-2015 16:20

Boe

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

To add on to what others have said, if you look at MN we currently can send up to 24 teams (not all of which are necessarily from MN). If last year MN was in districts we would have made up ~6.6% of FRC teams which would have given us ~40 spots under the district system which is ~166% more teams sent from the state, all of which would be MN teams.

11-07-2015 17:00

jajabinx124

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Lets not forget that wildcards are given out at regionals sometimes, so that's another way to qualify to champs through a regional in addition to the ones you listed above. Even with wildcard rules at regionals, I still think/agree that it's easier to qualify to champs via the district system.

11-07-2015 17:03

logank013

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Yeah... I have never been to a regional and I know that qualifying via wildcard is sort of complicated... lol

11-07-2015 17:05

EricH

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

You still only send 6 teams/regional, max.

11-07-2015 17:14

jajabinx124

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

It's not really that complicated.

Here is the championship eligibility criteria for this year, you'll find the whole explanation regarding wild card slots on that criteria.

11-07-2015 17:17

jajabinx124

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Yeah, your right. If you look it at from that point of view, regionals only send 6 teams max to champs, regardless of number of wildcards.

11-07-2015 17:25

Caleb Sykes

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

That was the qualifier that I was looking for, your first statement without it could mean many different things otherwise. For the "average" team (whatever that means), districts do not drastically improve the probability of attending worlds.

11-07-2015 17:28

logank013

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Exactly. It helps teams with good robots to not run into bad luck and not make it to worlds.

11-07-2015 17:52

XaulZan11

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

On the flip side of the "districts are easier to qualify for the championship", if Minnesota had 8 ~30 team regionals (such as those in Canada, for example), Minnesota could send up to 48 teams. I think an arguement could be made that smaller regionals are the ideal structure.

11-07-2015 17:55

logank013

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

8 regionals in 1 state?!?! the most is california with 7. A state with 8 regionals would be way too many in my opinion.

11-07-2015 17:57

mipo0707

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

canada has regionals that host up to 48 teams
just waterloo regional is small 30 team regional

11-07-2015 18:03

EricH

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

I can tell you aren't from CA. CA with fewer than 7 regionals is a nightmare waiting to happen. There just aren't enough regional spots to go around out here!

(Of course, I can also point out that CA supports more teams per league in the big 4 sports leagues--5 if you count MLS--than any other state, including NY's "3" NFL teams where 2 play in NJ.)

11-07-2015 18:05

XaulZan11

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

I understand Canada has larger/normal sized regionals, but also had three with 35 or fewer teams.

I do think districts are the best structure, but if you're a region/team that values the feel of a 'professional' regional (over an event in a high school), the best chance of qualifying, and don't want to go to three events in seven weeks, smaller regionals are probably the best solution. This also just highlights what a poor value the large 60+ team regionals are.

11-07-2015 18:11

logank013

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

The map says that california has 7 regionals btw.

11-07-2015 18:21

EricH

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

I know. I also don't know of any plans to add one for 2016.

2017... is another story.

If CA were to lose a regional (fewer than 7 regionals), you can bet that there would be a bunch of VERY unhappy teams. CA gaining a regional means a bunch of happy teams.

11-07-2015 18:25

logank013

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Out of all states, why hasn't California gone to districts. They could have another big district like Michigan.

11-07-2015 18:36

GeeTwo

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

As I understand it, there are a number of ferries that go from Seattle to various locations in Alaska. The time is obviously longer, but perhaps the cost is lower. It's been a while since I've been up that way. I took the USNS Silas Bent from Seattle to Kodiak in 1989 (was it really that long ago?), but I was surveying, not just a passenger.

11-07-2015 18:45

Jacob Bendicksen

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

From what I've heard, it's partially to do with the length of the state. Most districts are (extremely roughly, don't quote me on this) square-shaped or circular, meaning that a DCMP somewhere in the middle makes travel time not too bad for most/all teams. However, since California's so long, even if the DCMP was in the Bay Area/Sacramento (aka roughly in the middle), driving time would still be horrible for a lot of teams.

Disclaimer: I'm not from California, but have some friends down there.

The ferries apparently take 4-5 days (source) and cost just as much/more than a plane ticket, so I don't think that this would be a better option for most teams. Also, with only one team currently competing in Alaska, there's nowhere near the necessary team density to make a district event happen.

That being said, we PNW teams miss our Alaskan friends, and look forward to competing alongside them in the future.

11-07-2015 18:50

logank013

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

I wonder if they could split california into 2 districts. a south and a north district.

11-07-2015 19:02

EricH

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Let's just say that there is a really "interesting" mix of factors that is not exactly conducive to districts despite the massive interest from mid-top level teams.

Weather, for example, is one of the factors. Because our weather is so nice, our schools tend to have minimum-size gyms. No fieldhouses. No covered football stadiums. If you're lucky you get two connected gyms or a double gym. This kind of puts a crimp in venue hunting.

There's also the volunteer problem (not enough)--but that can be worked around.

We also have a LOT of single-event teams.

And, perhaps more to the point, there isn't one single overarching organization that can help cover. WRRF, LARobotics (SCRRF section), and San Diego's organization are the main players in northern CA, LA/Inland Empire, and San Diego, respectively, and if you go full-state, they've ALL got to work together (which can be done... it's just harder because WRRF has a pretty long commute to LARobotics, and longer to San Diego).


BTW, Jacob, a DCMP in Sacramento would NOT be in the middle by any stretch of the imagination. That's called "putting your DCMP at one end of your team concentration". Long story short, north of Sacramento there really isn't much, and especially not much FRC activity. Best bet for "in the middle" is the southern Central Valley: Bakersfield would be where my money would go in that case, as the most likely area to be a reasonable travel distance for the most teams AND the most likely to have a suitable venue.

11-07-2015 20:15

Ichlieberoboter

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Well I am quite proud that the number of Minnesota regionals is on par with Texas and New York. Ah! Great job #minnesotaFIRST! Only behind Cali!

11-07-2015 21:52

BSV

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Oklahoma had 58 teams last year, which is more than Indiana, right? Throw in Arkansas (30 teams) and have OKC / Tulsa / Little Rock district events with a championship someplace in there and you have a pretty good district. Especially since Texas is going to districts, soon.

11-07-2015 21:55

logank013

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Yes. Indiana had the smallest district with 49 teams, 3 district events, and 32 teams were invited to the district championship.

11-07-2015 22:06

Gregor

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Too bad you can only attend 2 of them, in specific weeks...

11-07-2015 23:09

cadandcookies

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

You get over it pretty quickly when you realize you're attending two of the biggest robotics events outside of champs-- seriously, come down and visit the Duluth regionals sometime and experience the Double DECCer yourself. I bet we can find room somewhere for you if you came down!

12-07-2015 00:16

Gregor

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Pretty much on a tangent now, but part of the reason I've had such a great experience with FRC was because I've been able to attend 9 regionals in the past 2 years, volunteering at 5 of them, since I'm lucky enough to have to many events in my province. 5 regionals in 6 weeks is absolutly a blast.

To each their own I suppose.

12-07-2015 05:03

Mr V

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Regarding it being easier to qualify for CMP from a DCMP that increased significantly with the expanded size of CMP. For example in the PNW we used to have 4 Regionals so we sent up to 24 teams, though it was often less before wild cards and was still less with the initial wild card system. For 2014 season we sent 24 teams and with the expanded CMP we were able to send 32 teams through qualification and through the lottery 2 other teams from the PNW area won a spot. Since at least one of those teams qualified at DCMP the CMP awards went deeper in the rankings. The other advantage to the District System is that if a team declines their spot at CMP it is handed down to the next spot on the list.

Regarding CA moving to the District System I can tell you that one of the RD's from CA did come to one of the PNW district events and toured the Washington FIRST Robotics Fieldhouse to see what a district event looks like and how we do things. Geography does play a factor in how the CA district would play out. Because of the N to S distance I think it would be likely that it would mainly play at the district event level as two separate districts until the DCMP.

12-07-2015 06:39

Clem1640

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Which is why Pennsylvania is purple on the map. The Philadelphia side of PA fits logically into MAR without creating huge travel issues for teams. Western Pennsylvania on the other hand is served by the Pittsburgh Regional. Most PA teams are geographically clustered around these two cities.

12-07-2015 09:25

wilsonmw04

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

I wish this common sense was more wide spread.

12-07-2015 09:29

GeeTwo

Re: pic: FIRST USA MAP

Not surprising, given the population distribution: