11-01-2016 11:09

AustinH

Re: pic: Effective Aperture of Low Bar Defense

Nice catch! This will undoubtedly come up during strategy discussions today...

11-01-2016 11:09

MrForbes

Re: pic: Effective Aperture of Low Bar Defense

You can get a tad more room than this, assuming the effective wheelbase of your robot is longer than the ramp. But it's an excellent point, I'm glad you posted this! I bet there are teams that didn't catch this.

11-01-2016 11:13

Nathan Streeter

Re: pic: Effective Aperture of Low Bar Defense

Glad someone highlighted this! On 1519 we just realized this last night... I hadn't tried to quantify the minimum (14.15"), but we did notice that a robot 15.9" on the leading edge won't fit. It needs to be shorter at the front, and as Mr Forbes noted, the longer your wheelbase the taller you can be (but still probably only around 15" or so at the leading edge).

11-01-2016 11:15

Madison

Re: pic: Effective Aperture of Low Bar Defense

I should add a disclaimer that I made this sketch pretty quickly based on the dimensions provided in the game manual. It may be that the actual construction of the field elements results in slightly different geometry.

Don't build a robot that's 14.14" tall because of my picture.

11-01-2016 11:18

MrForbes

Re: pic: Effective Aperture of Low Bar Defense

And for those teams that are kind of new at this....beware that the fields don't always measure exactly what the drawings say they should. It's a good idea to add some extra clearance for something like this. Maybe the 14" number is what you should be shooting for, even if you have a rather long robot. Think about what happens when you go down the other side, too.

11-01-2016 11:19

nuclearnerd

Re: pic: Effective Aperture of Low Bar Defense

You also only have to be ~14" tall until the CG of your robot passes over the end of the ramp (if you drive slow), then you could be 16" tall for the length of the horizontal portion of the platform. That might be splitting hairs though - easier to design to the 14" limit.

11-01-2016 11:43

Lil' Lavery

Re: pic: Effective Aperture of Low Bar Defense

It's in the picture, but it's worth highlighting that the bar is not centered on the ramp. As a result, the maximum height will vary depending on which side you're approaching it from.

11-01-2016 11:46

Madison

Re: pic: Effective Aperture of Low Bar Defense

...and also that the neutral zone would be on its left side in this picture.

11-01-2016 13:08

bEdhEd

Re: pic: Effective Aperture of Low Bar Defense

Glad this was brought up and shared with a picture. This was a factor we were considering with our short bot idea yesterday.

11-01-2016 13:09

Kevin Sevcik

Re: pic: Effective Aperture of Low Bar Defense

That's fun. You'll need to have a CG that's something like 14" from one end of your robot to make it backwards through the low bar, in that case....

11-01-2016 13:14

MrForbes

Re: pic: Effective Aperture of Low Bar Defense

Or keep the ends of the robot a little bit shorter than the middle.

11-01-2016 13:43

Nebster

Re: pic: Effective Aperture of Low Bar Defense

I was thinking about this too. Something where the front end of the robot is less than the ~14" limit for when the robot is on the ramp, but the rest of the robot can go up to 15.9" or so and be fine.

Warning- MS Paint incoming:

11-01-2016 17:37

wilsonmw04

Re: pic: Effective Aperture of Low Bar Defense

something like this would tackle the low goal well, but it would have significant issues with the overhang of the frame. The approach and departure angles make some defenses impassible.

11-01-2016 17:41

Nebster

Re: pic: Effective Aperture of Low Bar Defense

True. My wheel placements weren't accurate to a real robot, i just kind of drew them on in 10 seconds to show that this was a robot. The wheels would definitely be closer to the outside edge of the frame.

11-01-2016 19:16

bt20304

Re: pic: Effective Aperture of Low Bar Defense

hey, looking at measurements in solidworks, you seem to be off.
in reality the field elements are 13.73" measured the same way
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4...G5rM1Q0YlNCYmc

11-01-2016 19:31

pHolmgren

Re: pic: Effective Aperture of Low Bar Defense

Thanks for this! It really helped us visualize what's needed for a low bar robot.

11-01-2016 21:22

Madison

Re: pic: Effective Aperture of Low Bar Defense

When I measure against the field model provided by Autodesk, I get 13.86". Did you model those elements yourself or were they taken from elsewhere?

In any case, that discrepancy is why I added a disclaimer in this thread saying that y'all shouldn't take my word for it and should check things out yourselves.

11-01-2016 22:53

Kevin Sevcik

Re: pic: Effective Aperture of Low Bar Defense

Those slopes would go a lot farther back, depending on how long the robot is and where the CG is. The initial approach would actually have a better aperture, since you're on your front wheels and rear wheels, and thus at a shallower angle. Then the aperture would shrink down to whatever that minimum amount is, until your CG (or something else) tilts you down to horizontal again.

Coming from the backside is even worse. If you're not flat before you get to that bar, you're going to have to be something like 3" shorter yet. so that end of your robot will have to be 11" or maybe even 10".

The real answer to all this, of course, is to make up an inventor sketch of a side view of the low bar and your chassis and layout. And then run your chassis through with wheels tangent to the correct surfaces, and see what happens.

12-01-2016 09:32

PayneTrain

Re: pic: Effective Aperture of Low Bar Defense

Thanks for posting this. This was a fact some teams were able to catch very early, but unfortunately we all know we are going to get to events and see a 15.9" tall robot with a strategy designed around a nontrivial utilization of the low bar.

13-01-2016 10:39

pHolmgren

Re: pic: Effective Aperture of Low Bar Defense

I know it must be do-able but the challenge is fitting a firing mechanism in that space, to shoot in the high goal.

13-01-2016 10:42

EricLeifermann

Re: pic: Effective Aperture of Low Bar Defense

Unless your drive base is the exact length of the defense ramps your robot isn't going to be on a 13.5 degree angle.

I suggest all teams put in their robot in a sketch and run it through like it was actually driving through the low bar. The height of that bar isn't as low as people are making it out to be if your drive is designed correctly.

13-01-2016 10:45

pfreivald

Re: pic: Effective Aperture of Low Bar Defense

I realized this problem right away, but appear to have gotten the orientation of the low bar backward--I thought the bar was closer to the Courtyard, rather than to the Neutral Zone. Thanks, Madison!

16-01-2016 13:29

mplanchard

Re: pic: Effective Aperture of Low Bar Defense

All the Field models were provided by FIRST and imported into SOLIDWORKS.

AndyMark and VEX Robotics models were designed originally in SOLIDWORKS and provided by these manufactures directly to us to create our KOP.

Industrial suppliers such as SMC BIMBA FESTO also have validated models on 3DContentCentral.

You should always verify models. Good engineering practice. Marie.

16-01-2016 15:49

Kevin Sevcik

Re: pic: Effective Aperture of Low Bar Defense

This depends somewhat on your CoM. If you have a CoM near the back, you might not fall down horizontal until you're well into the low bar. At which point you'd start pushing against the low bar. Just CAD isn't going to give you those details.

19-01-2016 13:22

dsergison

Re: pic: Effective Aperture of Low Bar Defense

it's worth drawing up for your own wheelbase... 6 or 8 wheel bots likely have 24-36" wheelbases, so they never sit on the ramp at the ramp angle, so their effective aperture is not quite as bad as shown....

also, the aperture isn't symmetrical.

It's a weird obstacle for sure. It will be interesting to see how people hang up on it. It has a lot of potential to completely jam some bots for the duration.