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Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Toyota center on the left, George R. Brown Convention center in the middle, minute maid park on the right.
Discussion
view entire thread
10-05-2016 12:51
yarden.saa
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
How large it is compairing to the Dome in St. Louis and the Dome in Atlanta?
10-05-2016 12:59
Xavbro
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by yarden.saa
How large it is compairing to the Dome in St. Louis and the Dome in Atlanta?
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10-05-2016 13:28
Karthik
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Are robots moving between the three listed sites, or is all of FRC taking place in the convention center?
10-05-2016 13:42
Kevin Kolodziej
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Karthik
Are robots moving between the three listed sites, or is all of FRC taking place in the convention center?
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This continues to be the one piece of information that it seems most people have overlooked. I don't know what St. Louis in 2017 is supposed to be like but Houston and Detroit are supposedly going to be resurrecting the fields in the pits from 2011.
10-05-2016 13:50
Richard Wallace
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
I understand from the announcement that all matches will be held in the convention center.
No details yet, that I could find. If each field has 100 ft of 15 row bleachers on each side, about 1200 per field could be seated. Each field would occupy about 16,000 sq.ft. This would be much larger than the pit-area fields that St. Louis used a few years ago, but I think it is necessary to provide enough seating in subdivisions. Einstein will be another matter -- not sure how that is going to fit in a convention hall.
10-05-2016 14:42
notmattlythgoe
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Richard Wallace
I understand from the announcement that all matches will be held in the convention center.
No details yet, that I could find. If each field has 100 ft of 15 row bleachers on each side, about 1200 per field could be seated. Each field would occupy about 16,000 sq.ft. This would be much larger than the pit-area fields that St. Louis used a few years ago, but I think it is necessary to provide enough seating in subdivisions. Einstein will be another matter -- not sure how that is going to fit in a convention hall. |
#2isgreaterthan1champs
10-05-2016 14:47
waialua359
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kevin Kolodziej
My understanding, after asking about it at the meeting at 2015 Champs, is that all of FRC will be taking place in the convention center. All matches. They did not have an answer for whether or not Einstein would take place in one of the arenas.
This continues to be the one piece of information that it seems most people have overlooked. I don't know what St. Louis in 2017 is supposed to be like but Houston and Detroit are supposedly going to be resurrecting the fields in the pits from 2011. |
. Time to bring butt pads for prolonged seating on hard bleachers. I hope Einstein South isnt on one of those proposed fields.
10-05-2016 14:47
Xavbro
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
I do hope they don't move robots/pits around. Houston has a reputation of rain and flooding happening in minutes and to transport to those other venues, I don't see much covering available. The convention center is very large and has 3 different floors. If they only have 4 divisions, I can see it all fitting nicely in the convention center. Maybe two divisions on the first and second floor with Einstein being on the 3rd floor. FLL and FTC could be on the third floor all together.
It could all work out but I think they would want use the Toyota Center or Minute Maid Park for opening and closing ceremonies. It would give them the seating that everyone is used to from past Championships.
10-05-2016 14:47
notmattlythgoe
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by waialua359
. Time to bring butt pads for prolonged seating on hard bleachers. |
10-05-2016 14:48
Xavbro
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by waialua359
. Time to bring butt pads for prolonged seating on hard bleachers. I hope Einstein South isnt on one of those proposed fields. |
10-05-2016 14:56
Tim Sharp
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Xavbro
If they use the bleachers that are used for Lone Star, they are quite comfortable
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10-05-2016 14:58
Kevin Sevcik
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Karthik
Are robots moving between the three listed sites, or is all of FRC taking place in the convention center?
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Assuming this is the case, it would mean pit fields again for divisions, though probably with adequate seating since GRB has a lot more room than America's Center. Like, 500K SQF vs. 340K SQF. I don't think the stands in the pit fields will be nearly as crowded.
I'm assuming here that FTC, FLL, and FLLjr get tossed to the third floor where there's another 223K SQF which sounds like enough considering FTC was in 100 (awkward) SQF at Union Station and FLL was crammed in 50K in Hall 1 at America's Center. 50% more spcae for those programs will probably be sufficient.
10-05-2016 15:01
Karthik
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik
No, it won't be a repeat of the 2003 debacle. Lucia Sevcik (LSR RD) continues to insist to me that George R Brown will host FRC quals and division elims, but Einstein is supposed to happen in Minute Maid Park, which makes sense to me from a logistics and venue size standpoint. I can't see any possible way of fitting enough seating in one area of the GRB to make Einstein work there, even if you cram all 4 fields together and surround them with seats to the rafters.
Assuming this is the case, it would mean pit fields again for divisions, though probably with adequate seating since GRB has a lot more room than America's Center. Like, 500K SQF vs. 340K SQF. I don't think the stands in the pit fields will be nearly as crowded. I'm assuming here that FTC, FLL, and FLLjr get tossed to the third floor where there's another 223K SQF which sounds like enough considering FTC was in 100 (awkward) SQF at Union Station and FLL was crammed in 50K in Hall 1 at America's Center. 50% more spcae for those programs will probably be sufficient. |
10-05-2016 15:14
Cory
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Karthik
Sounds like a cool setup. I had far less problems with the pit fields in 2011 than most of my peers. Any idea on the logistics of moving robots and pits from the convention center to Minute Maid for Einstein? How far is this walk?
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I didn't mind the pit fields that much in 2011, other than the bleachers being very uncomfortable. Hopefully FIRST springs for some with seatbacks this time around.
10-05-2016 15:22
Kevin Leonard
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cory
Hopefully FIRST springs for some with seatbacks this time around.
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Please, dear FIRST, give me seat backs.
10-05-2016 15:27
Kevin Sevcik
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Richard Wallace
If each field has 100 ft of 15 row bleachers on each side, about 1200 per field could be seated. Each field would occupy about 16,000 sq.ft. This would be much larger than the pit-area fields that St. Louis used a few years ago, but I think it is necessary to provide enough seating in subdivisions. Einstein will be another matter -- not sure how that is going to fit in a convention hall.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tim Sharp
"Bleachers" and "Comfortable" are oxymorons
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I can assure you it is indeed quite comfortable, but I don't know if it's the seating that will be used on the 1st floor where FRC is bound to land.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Xavbro
The convention center is very large and has 3 different floors. If they only have 4 divisions, I can see it all fitting nicely in the convention center. Maybe two divisions on the first and second floor with Einstein being on the 3rd floor. FLL and FTC could be on the third floor all together.
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10-05-2016 15:43
Kevin Sevcik
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Karthik
Sounds like a cool setup. I had far less problems with the pit fields in 2011 than most of my peers. Any idea on the logistics of moving robots and pits from the convention center to Minute Maid for Einstein? How far is this walk?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cory
I didn't mind the pit fields that much in 2011, other than the bleachers being very uncomfortable. Hopefully FIRST springs for some with seatbacks this time around.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kevin Leonard
This. There is nothing worse than sitting the entire day in the stands scouting without seat backs.
Please, dear FIRST, give me seat backs. |
*Caveat that the event is a year off and my information is from a single member of the board.
10-05-2016 18:33
Greg Needel
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
The thing that I want to know is how many fields will there be at each event.
This year we had 8 for 600 teams at ~75 teams per division. This was nice because everyone got 10 matches and for the most part didn't seem rushed. The negative is that is spread the team talent out.
Assuming that each Championship gets 400 teams, are we going to see 4 ~100 team divisions (like the 2014 champs) meaning we will likely see 8 matches per division or are we going to see 8 divisions with 50 teams? (which seems like a bad idea from robot strength but fun when you get to play 12 matches). Could 6 fields work? How would eliminations work on Einstein in that case?
Has this been announced anywhere?
10-05-2016 18:36
Kevin Sevcik
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Greg Needel
The thing that I want to know is how many fields will there be at each event.
This year we had 8 for 600 teams at ~75 teams per division. This was nice because everyone got 10 matches and for the most part didn't seem rushed. The negative is that is spread the team talent out. Assuming that each Championship gets 400 teams, are we going to see 4 ~100 team divisions (like the 2014 champs) meaning we will likely see 8 matches per division or are we going to see 8 divisions with 50 teams? (which seems like a bad idea from robot strength but fun when you get to play 12 matches). Could 6 fields work? How would eliminations work on Einstein in that case? Has this been announced anywhere? |
10-05-2016 18:42
Billfred
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Greg Needel
The thing that I want to know is how many fields will there be at each event.
This year we had 8 for 600 teams at ~75 teams per division. This was nice because everyone got 10 matches and for the most part didn't seem rushed. The negative is that is spread the team talent out. Assuming that each Championship gets 400 teams, are we going to see 4 ~100 team divisions (like the 2014 champs) meaning we will likely see 8 matches per division or are we going to see 8 divisions with 50 teams? (which seems like a bad idea from robot strength but fun when you get to play 12 matches). Could 6 fields work? How would eliminations work on Einstein in that case? Has this been announced anywhere? |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik
6 fields would work just fine with Recycle Rush's points based quarter-finals. *ducks*
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10-05-2016 18:58
Koko Ed
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Greg Needel
The thing that I want to know is how many fields will there be at each event.
This year we had 8 for 600 teams at ~75 teams per division. This was nice because everyone got 10 matches and for the most part didn't seem rushed. The negative is that is spread the team talent out. Assuming that each Championship gets 400 teams, are we going to see 4 ~100 team divisions (like the 2014 champs) meaning we will likely see 8 matches per division or are we going to see 8 divisions with 50 teams? (which seems like a bad idea from robot strength but fun when you get to play 12 matches). Could 6 fields work? How would eliminations work on Einstein in that case? Has this been announced anywhere? |
10-05-2016 18:59
AllenGregoryIV
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
I propose we take a page out the VEX playbook.
5 Divisions each with 80 teams and a full round robin for Einstein. Everyone plays every other division once and the best 2 records play a best 2 out 3 finals.
10-05-2016 19:34
Richard Wallace
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Koko Ed
They could do it MSC style and have each division have tow fields and bounce back and forth between even and odd matches and do a dozen matches for each team like like MSC does.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV
5 Divisions each with 80 teams and a full round robin for Einstein. Everyone plays every other division once and the best 2 records play a best 2 out 3 finals.
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80 teams is still too many to share bleachers and allow adequate views for scouting.
So, I think 8 subdivisions of 50 teams each makes the most sense. 100 qualifying matches, 12 plays per team. That will sort out the subdivision seeds.
I also like round robin Einstein, but maybe in four groups? Four alliances per round robin group, comprising finalists from each subdivision. Then send group winners to the final four. Group play on the convention hall fields, final four in the big arena.
10-05-2016 19:47
Cory
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
I'd rather have 8 matches than have 50 team divisions...if they go with 8 divisions you may as well crown the champ on Friday night because those will be about the shallowest fields ever.
10-05-2016 19:52
araniaraniratul
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cory
I'd rather have 8 matches than have 50 team divisions...if they go with 8 divisions you may as well crown the champ on Friday night because those will be about the shallowest fields ever.
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10-05-2016 20:54
Kevin Sevcik
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by araniaraniratul
Or you know, watch them pull the top 50 in this year's Newton
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10-05-2016 20:57
Billfred
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Richard Wallace
So, I think 8 subdivisions of 50 teams each makes the most sense. 100 qualifying matches, 12 plays per team. That will sort out the subdivision seeds.
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I know I've been one of the people ill at ease over the dilution of the Championship, but this feels like someone took the can of Diet Dew and poured it in a 5-gallon bucket of water.
10-05-2016 21:14
Bkeeneykid
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Greg Needel
The thing that I want to know is how many fields will there be at each event.
This year we had 8 for 600 teams at ~75 teams per division. This was nice because everyone got 10 matches and for the most part didn't seem rushed. The negative is that is spread the team talent out. Assuming that each Championship gets 400 teams, are we going to see 4 ~100 team divisions (like the 2014 champs) meaning we will likely see 8 matches per division or are we going to see 8 divisions with 50 teams? (which seems like a bad idea from robot strength but fun when you get to play 12 matches). Could 6 fields work? How would eliminations work on Einstein in that case? Has this been announced anywhere? |
Code:
Match Blue Red TF1 1 6 TF2 2 5 TF3 3 4 SF1 TF1 TF2 SF2 TF2 TF3 SF3 TF2 TF3 F1 SF1 SF3
To explain this, the Tri-Finals (for lack of a better name) would be the equivalent of the current Quarters. The Semi-Finals is where it gets weird. They get split up into two Semi finals, one with TF1 and TF2 winners, and one with TF2 and TF3 winners. The big caveat of this is that TF2 winners have to play two semi final matches instead of one like everyone else, unless they win both of their matches (both SF1 and SF2),in which case, they do a tiebreaker for the two losers. The two winning alliances then go onto regular finals.
With only six alliances, there's a potential maximum of 27 rounds for eliminations, assuming each round goes to a tiebreaker. There's a minimum of 14, so I could see the wide variety of times to plan for an issue. But it proves that six alliance playoffs are possible.
EDIT: Made a quick flowchart of how this proposed flow would go:
10-05-2016 21:34
PayneTrain
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
I find the idea of shifting from the Championship event with 4 fields at 100 teams in 2014 to 16 fields between the 2 postseason expos at 50 in 2017 intriguing. Coupling that with the knowledge we have only had a 15.6% increase in the global team, it's a very thought provoking scenario. The thought: why not just save tens of thousands of dollars and go to a mid-tier out-of district event?
10-05-2016 21:37
rtfgnow
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bkeeneykid
I decided to work on a 6 alliance elimination schedule. This is probably a crazy idea, but it'll probably work.
Code:
Match Blue Red TF1 1 6 TF2 2 5 TF3 3 4 SF1 TF1 TF2 SF2 TF1 TF3 SF3 TF2 TF3 F SF1 SF3 To explain this, the Tri-Finals (for lack of a better name) would be the equivalent of the current Quarters. The Semi-Finals is where it gets weird. The winners of each Tri-final go on to do two matches (Technically 4-6, with tiebreakers). If they win both semi-finals, they go onto regular finals, proceeding like normal finals. If they loose one of them, they'll replay the match between the two (again, with second round & tiebreaker). Then that winning alliance goes onto regular finals. With only six alliances, there's a potential maximum of 27 rounds for eliminations, assuming each round goes to a tiebreaker. There's a minimum of 14, so I could see the wide variety of times to plan for an issue. But it proves that six alliance playoffs are possible. EDIT: Made a quick flowchart of how this proposed flow would go:  |
As I understand each round proceeds normally, there are two matches played, if each match goes to a different alliance than a third is played hopefully generating a winner. The winner of the TF1 round moves on, the winner of the TF2 round moves on and the winner of the TF3 moves on.
I do not understand how you narrow down from the three Tri-final winners to the two finalists.
Edit: The flowchart makes it easier to understand, I would suggest switching the names of SF2 and SF3. How do you even out the fact that TF2 has played twice as many matches as TF1 or TF3 if SF2(3) is not needed?
10-05-2016 21:47
Bkeeneykid
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by rtfgnow
I am confused how you get your two finalists, can you explain it again?
As I understand each round proceeds normally, there are two matches played, if each match goes to a different alliance than a third is played hopefully generating a winner. The winner of the TF1 round moves on, the winner of the TF2 round moves on and the winner of the TF3 moves on. I do not understand how you narrow down from the three Tri-final winners to the two finalists. Edit: The flowchart makes it easier to understand, I would suggest switching the names of SF2 and SF3. How do you even out the fact that TF2 has played twice as many matches as TF1 or TF3 if SF2(3) is not needed? |
10-05-2016 22:28
rtfgnow
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bkeeneykid
I just did another edit to make it more clear again. The basic idea is that the winners of TF2 play both matches. If they loose both of them, TF1 and TF3 go onto finals. If they loose one, the one they lost against and the winner of the other Tri-Final go onto finals. If the win both, SM3 (or 5, numbering is hard here), is a Tie-Breaker between the winners of TF1 and TF2 to go onto finals with TF2.
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I suggest you create a table with the following columns:
Independent 1: Outcome of SF1/3
Independent 2: Outcome of SF2/4
Dependent 1: Is SF5/6 played?
Dependent 2: what alliances become finalists
Dependent 3: If D1 is no and D2 includes TF2 (I'm not 100% sure this is possible), how do you make things fair for TF1/3?
Another question: What if TF2 plays hard in matches 1 and 3 but doesn't try (maybe even doesn't field a robot) for matches 2/4?
10-05-2016 22:30
Bkeeneykid
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
To give another example for this proposed system, I redid this years Einstein matches in this format. I had to cut two alliances (Sorry Archimedes and Carson, I still love you!), but I made some reasonable predictions so that the finals rounds would still be the same. The quarter finals are the same schedule as the Tri-Finals.
Code:
Blue Red TF1 Newton Hopper TF2 Galileo Tesla TF3 Curie Carver TF1 M2 Newton Hopper TF2 M2 Galileo Tesla TF3 M2 Curie Carver TF3 M3 Curie Carver SM1 Hopper Tesla SM2 Carver Tesla SM1 M2 Hopper Tesla SM2 M2 Carver Tesla SM2 M3 Carver Tesla SM3 Hopper Carver SM3 M2 Hopper Carver SM3 M3 Hopper Carver F1 Tesla Carver F2 Tesla Carver F3 Tesla Carver
10-05-2016 22:47
Bkeeneykid
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by rtfgnow
We are way off topic so this is going to be my last post on your proposal.
I suggest you create a table with the following columns: Independent 1: Outcome of SF1/3 Independent 2: Outcome of SF2/4 Dependent 1: Is SF5/6 played? Dependent 2: what alliances become finalists Dependent 3: If D1 is no and D2 includes TF2 (I'm not 100% sure this is possible), how do you make things fair for TF1/3? Another question: What if TF2 plays hard in matches 1 and 3 but doesn't try (maybe even doesn't field a robot) for matches 2/4? |
Code:
SF1 SF2 D1: D2: Finalists TF1 TF2 Not TF1,TF2 TF2 TF2 Yes TF2,SF5 TF1 TF3 Not TF1.TF3 TF2 TF3 Not TF2,TF3
In responce to your other question, I feel that would be going against Gracious Professionalism. If they are not completely sure that they would win the other semi final match, this would not be a viable strategy. I would say if they refuse to field a robot on one of their semi final matches, they would be punished by forfeiting all semi final matches. In this case, the finalists would be TF1 and TF3.
10-05-2016 22:47
araniaraniratul
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik
And then watch Newton get eliminated on Einstein anyways. How different would it really be with 8/50? I'd you think it's that predictable, you're basically assuming 1seeds out of each division. Would the 1 seeds out of 8/50 look that different than 1 and 2 out of 4/100? 2nd and 3rd picks would be weaker, but there's usually a big drop off there anyways.
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10-05-2016 22:55
Paul Richardson
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Richard Wallace
While it does work well for drive teams and volunteers, MSC two-field style is not going to be good for those in the stands. This is because bleacher seats for two fields will not provide adequate viewing of both fields. The much larger seating capacity of the Deltaplex (22 rows on one side, 36 rows on the other) make seeing both MSC fields easy from most seats. Bleacher seats will likely be 15 rows.
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Block out the prime sections for scouts and VIPs, and make sure everything else has intentionally bad sight lines to the further field (don't want to leave any prime seating free-for-all because people will fight over it).
10-05-2016 23:10
Kevin Sevcik
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bkeeneykid
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bkeeneykid
(Explanation)
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bkeeneykid
(Further Explanantion with Examples)
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bkeeneykid
(Yet More Explanation)
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11-05-2016 10:54
lynca
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Reserve your hotel rooms early !
There are many hotels downtown within walking distance of the convention center.
The light rail "Convention District" stop is the closest to the venue. http://www.houstontx.gov/abouthouston/lightrail.html
Houston has lots of parking, but Bus parking can get complicated especially with the new construction for the SuperBowl.
11-05-2016 11:16
clicato100
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
I'm curious if any teams will check out the Houston tunnels for lunch Friday . . . so few people ever know about them and the East End expansion is just across Discovery Green now
http://www.downtownhouston.org/site_...DMAP2015-2.pdf
11-05-2016 13:21
hrench
Re: pic: Houston Venue for Championship 2017
Did they already say if they'll use the same scientists' names in both 'championships?'
I'd be cool with them adding some famous engineer names.
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